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Author Topic: WTB: Flicker Fixer  (Read 9126 times)

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Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« on: July 27, 2007, 11:05:13 AM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
One is a triple 10-bit ADC, the other is the AL250 scandoubler.

A guy called Roy sells ready made ones


Do you know if he uses these Averlogic chips in his (Roy's) scandoublers?

Quote

alexh wrote:

Bummer is they are only 16-bit, but then so are a lot of Amiga ones.


To make a 24bit one, would you just need a better ADC? If the ADC is 10bits, would that mean it's used for 10bit color (not 16bit, but 1024 colors in a format like 4:3:3 bits for RGB), or would it mean 10bits per channel (RGB), which would then yield, again not 16bit but conceivably up to 10x3=30bit ?

Thanks

PS. I'm with Murple on the "open sourced" SD/FF, and agree fully with the "don't care about RoHS/production pieces" attitude on these things. If it's meant for homebrew, then it doesn't matter. I have plenty of DB25 cable to tear apart for getting my DB23 (just pull 2 pins out :)  And also, sadly, AmigaKit is right about *why* SD/FFs aren't been made. Jens Schoenfeld gave us the exact same reasons for the lack of SD/FF hardware.
 

Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2007, 06:12:16 AM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
The issue is not the ADC (that is effectively 30-bit) but it is the RGB input to the scandoubler which is only 16-bit (5:6:5)


Could you explain that to me? Does it mean that the Amiga RGB port only outputs 16bit color, therefore a maximum of 65536 colors? I thought the OCS/ECS chipset will only ever output 12bit color (4096 color palette), the AGA chipset 18bit color (262144 color palette), and any graphics card solutions will go up to full 24bit color (although they can also do 16bit color). Where does the 16bit come into play?

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alexh wrote:
Price is the killer, you HAVE to use off the shelf components to keep the price down. If you are above the $65 (£35) is the "wife acceptable" price point. Anything above that and you have to almost DOUBLE the sale price as you will only sell half as many.


Understandable, unfortunately.

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alexh wrote:
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.


Granted that they do, but that doesn't really mean anything. They're still not useful to anyone with a real Amiga. What you might have meant is that the "work" has been done, it just needs to be packaged as a stand-alone product? Or am I wrong?
 

Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2007, 06:17:13 AM »
Quote

murple wrote:
Im researching the CoCo vs Amiga RGB and considering buying


Please do let us know what you find out. I'm also very interested in an external scandoubler that can possibly be duplicated. I found the Averlogic chips for very cheap (only a couple bucks each I think)

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murple wrote:
get it, then maybe I'll try using my (admittedly almost nonexistent) electronics skills to see if I can build a more Amiga friendly version.


No expert myself, but I'm sure I and others can help. As evidenced already, there are a bunch of really talented hardware guys on these forums.

Also, I think the two biggest "Amiga specific" features are a de-interlacer (the most difficult part of a SD/FF it seems) and secondly the "31Khz or higher mode detection passthrough" functionality, so any VGA-capable modes are passed through and not up-converted.

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murple wrote:
A torn apart DB25 might work, but theres got to be a way to scavenge DB23 connectors from old monitor cables, etc.


Surely that's better, but I meant it for the case when we don't have a dead monitor or cable :) I've used the technique many times myself. In fact, last night as I was trying to revive my dead migy, I had to make a DB9 VGA to DB15 VGA converter: one serial cable and one (dead) PeeCee graphics card slaughtered :)
 

Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 11:43:04 PM »
I will answer [part of] my own questions in detail (corrections may be necessary), for further future reference:

While reading this thread:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18247

I stumbled upon MskoDestny's comments which are the exact answers I was looking for:

Quote

 Those digital signals only give you 4-bit color (for attaching to a CGA monitor). Only way to get the full color resolution is to use an ADC on the analog RGB signals, make a video slot scandoubler or make something that clips on to the appropriate chips.

The added ADC of the analog solution pushes you over what makes sense for a $100 product unless you're willing to order the parts in sufficient quantity (which of course requires capital). A digital solution is complicated by the fact that no one manufacturers 5V DRAM chips anymore (well at least none that I've come across) and SRAM is kind of expensive for the quantities you need. Since AGA has 24-bits worth of video signal it's not a trivial number of signals to convert (though the fact that it's not a bidirectional signal probably allows for cheasier solutions).


So the digital RGB outputs (on the DB23 RGB port) are only 4bit (16 colors), and thus pretty much useless :(

As mentioned before the options are:

1) Internal Video Slot solution (occupies slot, much like CyberVision 64/3D, has access to best quality/full OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit DIGITAL signals, is problematic since not all video slots are the same, and some Amiga models don't even have one, also a pain since the machine has to be opened up)

2) Internal Chip Hijack solution (attaches on top of Alice or appropriate chip and thus allows an empty video slot, much like some DCE solutions, has access to best quality/full OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit DIGITAL signals, is problematic since different Amiga models have different video chips, also a pain since the machine has to be opened up and furthermore one has to much around with the delicate circuitboard components)

3) External Analog To Digital solution (easily attaches externally to the RGB port and is thus the most "universal" solution, has access to the "not so best" quality OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit *ANALOG* signals)

Clearly for the best quality solutions 1 and 2 are the right choices. Clearly for the most trouble-free and most compatibility solution 3 is the right choice.

One thought that I had in mind is that even though the 3rd solution doesn't give the best results, an improvement would be to use the digital RGB signals to "dynamically calibrate" the ADC circuits. In other words, when the ADC samples a single RGB pixel value as 23,45,9 it can then compare the lowest 4 bits of each component to the digital RGB values, and do some fancy "auto-calibration" or even "auto-error-correction" (this would only work with component values less than 16 due to only having 4bits per component from the digital RGB lines).


EDIT:

Now that I read the quote again, I'm not 100% sure if the 4bits digital output pertains to each RGB component. Anybody have a link to someplace documenting the digital RGB outputs?

Also, when AlexH said that the ADC is only 16bits, I think he means that the ADC might sample at 10bits per component, but will only output 5 or 6 bits per component (depending on if it's 5:6:5 or 5:5:6, etc). Can you verify this AlexH? Thanks


EDIT2:

And now I will fully answer my questions.

Looking at the following schematic by Ian Stedman: http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Downloads/scandoubler.png and looking at the AL250 chip, one can see what AlexH is referring to as the "16bit limit": it's those pins named VDIN[0-15]. The input to the scandoubler piece (AL250) is limited to 16bit. BLAH! Hopefully a replacement for the AL250 is easy to find.