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Author Topic: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)  (Read 10764 times)

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Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« on: November 07, 2011, 03:39:07 AM »
Ive spent several years switching back and forward between different setups and systems trying to find the best high speed 68k/os3.x amiga setup, so this is a subject Im pretty well versed in.

To be completely honest though for every pro about one options there's usually a con or 2 as well, but for me amithlon has been what I end up going back to.

It depends on what youre wanting to do though. Do you favor apps and/or newer games, plus like to play some older games, or do you favor older games and use a few apps and/or newer games?

General rule of thumb is, do you want a retro "amiga" that can do newer things ok, or do you want a more modern amiga that can do the retro side ok? Amithlon +UAE will never be as fast and/or accurate as something like WInuae for custom chipset software, but give it enough grunt and its enough for all but the heaviest aga demos (ocs/ecs emulation is considerably quicker). UAE itself plays a bit of a part in this, and that's being updated (with cosnsiderable speed ups) for amithlon natve as we speak.

As suggested something like MicroXP can be a decent host for a dedicated emulated 68k box and does increase the supported hardware base over amithlon somewhat, but amithlons supported hardware isnt nearly as limited as its reputation. Ive tried on many, many computers over the years, and have never once found a system I couldnt get it working on. Things like sound, network, and gfx need to be given some thought thought, but that's pretty normal for alternative type systems, and is true for aros/mos/os4 as well.

As for ease of use, I guess Winuae has some advantages here. With amithlon youre completely at the mercy of AmigaOS and functionality needs to be found there. WinUAE will suppliment some of this through the host (usb, tcp/ip,p96,ahi,etc,etc.). Whether or not this is a good thing or not is down to the user, but personally I prefer it through the amiga os side as I both like to know my system inside out, and I prefer the extra flexibility it provides (try creating a 256x192 p96 screenmode (or any custom screenmode) in Winuae for example (you cant)).

AROS thus far is probably not the best option is 68k is a priority, which is a shame as it has great potential, its just not quite there yet unfortunately. Perfromance is a mixed bag,.... raw uae cpu performance is second to none for an amiga derived system (both because the hardware its runnig on, and as it has jit cpu emulation), but in practice it can be inconsistant. As often as not onscreen performance is inferior to amithlon on the same machine (and amithlon is emulating a 68k cpu and then emulating an amiga (including cpu again)). Given some time I suspect it will mature firther, but for a person who favors 68k Id wait before using AROS as a host (which is a shame really).

As for joystick support for amithlon support, this can be done a few ways. Poseidon, catweasel mk3, gameport (for supported sound cards) or if youre lucky you might find a ps2 or at joypad (as in a joypad that works of those connections, no playstation2). Theyre not common, but do exist (I use one). Typically a person plugs this straight into the mobo, and then plugs the keyboard into that (thats how mine works at least).
Id be lying if I said the game port option wasnt a pain to set up, but it can work. Poseidon Id expect would require a supported external pci card.

In short, Id suggest amithlon, but expect to alternate between loving it and hating it for a while until you get things working nicely :)

Im going to make a video of my amithlon box running all sorts of bits and pieces soon as I dont think there's a single video out there showing just how capable it is.
This isnt just a testament to amithlon's longevity, but to OS3.x itself. Given the grunt and some optimising/customising, and it stands up to the newer, younger systems nicely, only with 1000's of times as much software  :)
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 06:55:23 AM »
Using Windows as a host you can eliminate a lot of the host from the user, but if a person was pedantic there still are signs of it no matter what you do. Having to use uaegfx for screenmodes that are created by windows for example. The only way to create a custom p96 screenmode when using Winuae is to make a custom screenmode through Windows, which is then available to Winuae/AmigaOS through uaegfx. Also when Winuae crashes (great bit of software, but it does crash a little more often than Id like) youre left with a blank screen if youve replaced explorer with winuae. Any additional hardware manipulation needs to be done through windows, youre at the mercy of Windows viruses, system slowdowns over time, and so on.

To be fair I am mentioning worst case scenarios, and the illusion can be quite nice, but you're always at the mercy of windows to some degree or another. It all comes down to the user as to whether theyre pedantic enough for that to bother them.

Ultimately though Id advise a decision based on whether custom chipset performance or rtg/cpu performance is more important to you. Both can do both ok, but amithlon is better for things like movies, running emulators (why I like being able to make custom p96 screenmodes), system friendly games/apps, 3d rendering,etc.) and Winuae+Windows is better for things like custom chipset games, scene demos and games that use warp3d.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 06:58:17 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 01:40:42 PM »
For system friendly 68k software Amithlon is unparalleled in terms of speed. The heavier the load the more it distances itself from any form of uae. Raw 68k speed on my amithlon box is about 1.5x that of a sam460 running ppc code judging by benchmarks Ive seen online. AROS relies on UAE for 68k software, and does an ok job, but it's about 1/3rd to1/2 the speed of amithlon in a best case scenario. Amithlon can also run native big endian x86 os3.x code for even more speed (rarely used, but can make a big difference), but AROS obviously can run "normal" x86 AROS apps as well which often makes the need for huge 68k performance not so important (native movie players, browser, emulators and so on).
From that perspective I guess AROS could be a consideration to the original poster as well. It all come down to what a person finds important I guess..
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 06:50:23 PM »
Wipeout2097 amiga vesion is ppc only. You can howver play the playstation version on os3.x with FPSE.
Joypad should work if you have usb hardware supported by poseidon. Additionally you can use a catweasel and use 9pin amiga joysticks/joypads.
As for what OS4.x and MOS do that amithlon/winuae+os3.9 cant, to be honest, not a lot. The main difference is mos/os4.x do more "out-of-the-box" whereas os3.9 needs the user to make lots of modifications. Given similar hardware resources all 3 are similarly capable. The main exception that stands out is web browsing is a a better experience on OS4,aros, and espeically mos.
As for how fast it'll be on an athlonxp 3000+, pretty darn fast. For 68k speed it should give something along the lines of a 1ghz g4 using ppc code. You should be able to run dvd-ish quality movies, but no higher. Faster again when using amithlon native x86 code, but that's more theoretical as so far there's very few amithlon native apps.
As for warp3d/open gl, unfortunately there's only software rendering availbable for amithlon via wazp3d (technically not true, but for conversations sake t may as well be). Its quite fast for a cpu renderer, but obviously nowhere near as fast as 3d gfx card rendered. In quake 1 on my amithlon box I get about 190fps in 640x480 with normal cpu renderer and it drops back to about 50 using wazp3d with all effects enabled @ 640x480 (filtering, fog, mipmapping, antialiasing, etc.). Payback runs fine at 1600x1200 in normal software rendering normally, but I have to drop it back to 720x576 using wazp3d (still looks nicer using wazp3d though with effects enabled).
As for usb/ps2, personally I use usb mouse and keyboard, but I had to enable legacy support in bios as otherwise it'll rely on amiga os usb stack. It's also completely p96 and ahi based. 98% of system friendly apps work fine out of the box.
I think people underestimate just how much software is, or can be system friendly on the amiga too. Stuff like Genetic Species, Flyin' High, Racer, SimCity 2000, can be played without UAE, not to mention the more typically mention things like Trapped, Trapped2, Gloom series, ScummVM, NemacIV, Napalm, Earth2140, Racer, doom, heretic, hexen, seuck (this was a surpise to me atually), Dynamite, mame, snes9x, dgen, quake, quake2, payback, descent1/2, descent freespace, Foundation,  Exodus, Shadow Of A Third Moon, Onescapee, Virtual GP, Tales From Heaven, Nightlong and so on and so forth. There's a heck of a lot of system friendly stuff out there that doesnt require UAE. More apps then games, but still a lot of games too.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 07:04:26 PM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2011, 06:53:44 PM »
@Lurch

Nah, that's not true. Browsing with an amiga browser inside winuae still exposes the host to any potential viruses you find there, double so if youre using bsdsocket.lib emulation. Just cos you dont see it doesnt mean it's not doing harm to the host.
The point was though that you cant escape the host OS using Winuae, something you yourself just supported (task manager, MS security essentials, impossible to generate custom p96 modes without Windows, etc.).

Im not saying its a bad experience, I too have had systems setup like youve mentioned.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 06:58:51 PM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 03:19:41 AM »
Amithlon + OS3.9 is much, much faster than AEROS +68k apps could ever be. Completely different league (especially seeing as AEROS just uses UAE for 68k).

Contrary to how it may sound Im not trying to convince the OP to use Amithlon, Im simply elaborating on the options. For all its additional speed ad other pros there are situations where I might recommend Winuae still. Bu Id personally Id use amithlon vs winuae any day of the week if its for a "serious" machine. For a more casual system, or for someone who predominantely plays custom chipset games Id suggest the Winuae route. For anyone with more of an interst in other things Id recommend Amithlon.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 03:28:48 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Amithlon VS WinUAE VS AROS question (OS 3.9 related)
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 09:44:46 AM »
Sorry, I missed the question 1st time around,.... it varies, but for 68k amithlon is probably between 90 and 200% of the speed of winuae on the same hardware depending on what its doing. The heavier the load the faster amithlon is vs winuae. Video is much faster on amithlon, heavier multitasking there's a big difference, lame encoding, video enconding, emulation,etc. all much faster on amithlon.

I also disagree that its possible to build a faster uae box vs. amithlon box. Amithlon can be used on the very latest hardware (Ive used it on both an i5-760 and an i7-2600k as an experiment, although my actual amithlon box is an old 3.86ghz core2duo (which is typically still faster than winuae on my Windows box (the aforementioned i7-2600k) .
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.