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Offline Varthall

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Re: Why revive Amiga?
« on: June 10, 2003, 12:14:10 PM »
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NewRevolution wrote:
But where is it going today? Why should stakeholders invest money into Amiga? Amiga is (I believe) old technology today. Can the Amiga OS compete with today?s advanced OS?s like Linux and Windows? What dose Amiga have to offer that will make AOS more attractive than other OS?s?

AmigaOS has been always a simple, yet powerful OS. I prefer it to Windows, Linux and MacOS (pre-OSX). Why?

Windows: It's very difficult to get control of it. When I install a program, I never know exactly what gets copied where, at least not always. System and libraries have not recogniseable filenames, so I never know which system files I can delete and which not, a problem I never have with my Workbench partition. I don't understand why a internet browser should be so much part of the system that it's impossible to delete it without making the whole system instable. Also, I don't like an OS which needs to be reinstalled because many software installations were made which have slown down the os.

Linux: it's not standardized yet, there are many window managers around but none of them is the default one on all the Linux distros. Also, many tasks are still unnecessarily complicated (to copy files to a floppy you need to give "sync" command to fisically do it, just everything I experiment makes the system hang - I'm saying this as a Linux newbie)

MacOS: runs on a really nice hardware, I like it but it's too closed, I don't have the freedom to modify system files as I have on Amiga. I still have to test OSX, though.

IMHO the best OS running on PC hardware is Beos - it's similar to Amiga yet it's unique on its own. The problem is that it runs on x86 machines, which market is too much anarchic: there's not a "standard" pc that all the programs should be compatible with, hardware becames obsolete too fast!

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Yes it would be fun to dust of some old Amiga applications (and games). But how much am I willing to pay for that? $800? I?d rather dust of my old A1200 with my 68030 accelerator card and play with that.

I use an Amiga1200 with a 68030 card, but I would be happy to run all my programs on a faster machine, especially for PersonalPaint, Aweb, Ibrowse, to be able to play mp3s at full quality, to play games like Quake and Payback, using my os of choice. Amithlon or WinUAE are not an option, they run AmigaOS under emulation, so the programs running on them will never be as fast as they could if they would be compiled for the cpu they are running on. I prefer a native OS, like Pegasos and Os4.

Varthall
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram
MPlayer for OS4: https://sourceforge.net/projects/mplayer-amigaos/
 

Offline Varthall

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Re: Why revive Amiga?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2003, 05:04:30 PM »
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Cymric wrote:
I am not going to turn this into a crash course on Linux, but... excuse me? The window manager thing is unlikely to be resolved, given the fact that X is designed to be fitted with different managers. I can use a very simple or a very elaborate one. Other OSes are as closed as a clam in that regard.

Well, it depends what is for anyone more important in an Os, a wide choice of incompatible managers, or a single one set as standard. In my point of view, a standardized one is more important, as it would be for many programmers who wouldn't have to worry which manager to choose before starting to code. Well, I could be wrong... do all the managers in Linux have a common set of basic functions for windows managing and the like?

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However, what really made me go 'huh?' was that you somehow don't understand the reason for sync. Linux uses a buffered filesystem, so *everything* you write out to disk is cached. This allows for a great speedup of file I/O, since if the data written out is needed again, you just obtain it from RAM. There is no need at all to issue a sync manually---in fact, unmounting the floppy will do it for you. The design is to cache everything, and you can add auto-flushing capabilities later on if you so desire.

The problem is that AFAIK only Linux manages floppies and other devices this way: recent versions of Windows use caching, Beos requires mounting of devices, but they don't do delayed synching. It's nice that it's possible to do autoflushing, but I would prefer it to be set as default, I've spent half an afternoon to try to understand why files don't get copied to floppy even if the cp command was succesfull.
Also, caching can lead to unnecessarily problems: on a machine with Windows 2000, when I copy something to a floppy, to check it was copied correctly I usually copy it back to hard drive, but because of caching I have to take off the floppy, click on the drive's icon, reinsert the floppy and reclick to icon to be sure that the buffred has been flushed. Maybe there's some other way to avoid this, but I don't know of any other. Not that I use often floppies, but it's annoying neverthless.

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Third thing: I am *really* curious as how you manage to lock up the system 'with everything you experiment'. You can crash Linux, but it takes an effort, and to be very honest, I don't think a newbie can do it. So please, to satisfy my curiosity, what kind of experiments do you conduct?

During an install of Slackware 9 I was trying to set a default window manager. I don't remember what have I done, but while trying to do so, at a reboot the system reported an error and it wouldn't boot. Later I've found out that the link of xinit has to be changed, in my case from xinit.kde to xinitrc. But when I wanted to try another wm, linking another file to xinitrc didn't work - startx loaded the same wm.

I had worse experiences with OpenBSD on Amiga. I was trying to add the support for the amiga's filesystem, to be able to read my Amiga partition under BSD. I have found very little information on internet, I've tried to add a line to fstab but I coudn't mount the partition. Later I found an example fstab which had an additional boolean flag on every line. Maybe this flag was working only on later versions of OpenBSD, because after adding it the system wouldn't boot again and I didn't find any other solution than reinstalling everything.

Of course it matters how much anyone is used to a system - I'm using AmigaOs 3.0 since 1996 and because of this I feel much more confortable when I use it.

Varthall
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram
MPlayer for OS4: https://sourceforge.net/projects/mplayer-amigaos/
 

Offline Varthall

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Re: Why revive Amiga?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2003, 05:13:06 PM »
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olegil wrote:
You should try out my setup for autofs :-)
Always mount removable media with -o sync, and preferably mount it from autofs with a timeout of 1-3 seconds. Works nicely for cdroms, floppy and usb thingies.


Autofs? Is this a script?
I'll try the -o thing as suggested, thanks  :-)

Varthall
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram
MPlayer for OS4: https://sourceforge.net/projects/mplayer-amigaos/
 

Offline Varthall

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Re: Why revive Amiga?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2003, 05:56:34 PM »
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Cymric wrote:
@Varthall:
As for the window manager thing: it's a bit complex as there is a distinction between window managers and toolkits. Window managers deal with the behaviour of the entire window, while toolkits deal with the contents of the window. The two are separate entities. While there is a certain standard a window manager has to conform to, this does not apply to the toolkits. Programs developed for one toolkit are not source-code compatible with another toolkit, but should run with any window manager. Most likely, you get the best look-and-feel if you use the toolkit's preferred manager, though. So, there's two issues: window-related actions are standardised, but things like buttons, menus, gadgets and input boxes are not. And yes, that is a big shame---for consistency it should be a toolkit or several which are so close to one another the normal user doesn't see the difference.

Thanks for the explanation. So, also on Amiga we could say we have different "toolkits", like Mui, Reaction and Gadtools, so we have similar problems of consistency between interfaces. Well, maybe this will be a matter of past as os4.0 uses Reaction as standard. At least we have just one window manager :-)

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As for the floppies: well, this is Linux (or Unix, for that matter, as all Unices do it like this). You get used to it :-). In any case, I find your verification step rather cumbersome---why do you do that? I trust my floppy drives to write out things correctly.

I trust my drives too, the floppies are the ones I don't trust. About half of all my floppies has bad blocks, which is not surprising as the last batch of floppies I bought are well over two years old.

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Finally, regarding the crashing of Linux: what you describe is not an actual crash of Linux, where the kernel blurts out a 'kernel panic' and dumps the CPU state onto your screen.

Well, so I guess that it was just the x server that crashed.

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 Yes, you can accidentally cause an error in a configuration file causing severe problems during the boot sequence. Rather like making a typo very early on in s:startup-sequence. (You can always recover the system with a rescue disk, a reinstallation of the OS is never necessary.)

At least I know that at boot time the only configuration files read are the startup-sequence and user-sequence, so if something is going wrong I know where to take a look. I've the feeling that on Linux the configuration files used during boot are many and cluttered in many directories.

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Once the system is up and running, it is solid as a rock, however. Something which can not be said for Amigas, I'm afraid, although I hear that OS4.0 is decidedly better at trapping and catching program errors without bringing down the entire system.

That's sadly true. However I was happy to discover lately that at least the lighter gurus could be recovered by MCP with the "Jump RTS" fuction.
Very handy for AWeb crashes :-)

Varthall
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram
MPlayer for OS4: https://sourceforge.net/projects/mplayer-amigaos/