Coldfire AGAIN

[Einstein]

biggun wrote:

The big advantage of the AMIGA OS system is the elegant design and the resulting low memory and speed requirements of it.

If you want to build a new high end system take x86 and Linux.

If I want to enjoy a minimum of AmigaOSs elegance, I can in windows (and linux for that matter), all I need to do is to only use the most buggy alphas of applications, but again as I said that's just a minimum of the sweet taste of the AmigaOSs elegance, minimum because the cursed Winblows (and Linsux) does not permit the sweet buggy apps destroy the data of the others (and consequently mine) and kill the OSs, what a shame.

[Einstein]

HenryCase wrote:

When was the last time this happened to you, and what version of AmigaOS were you using at the time?

Eons ago, since I don't take the "OS" serious so to say, in order to consider it useful (lol).

And there is no difference between any AmigaOS since *there is no memory protection*.

[Einstein]

JetRacer wrote:
You really got him there HenryCase; no Amiga user would ever recall any of the weeks last 57 gurus and which of the 3 OS versions he used at the time :-)

Ofcourse not :roflmao:

[Einstein]

HenryCase wrote:
@JetRacer

The different versions of AmigaOS aren't equally stable, so my question still stands.

It's pretty irrelevant for how long the different versions of AmigaOSs can stand on their feet before collapsing, since the supreme champions in the arena are the tasks :-)

[Einstein]

AeroMan wrote:
Why all the discussions about doing something new to the Amiga deteriorates in no-one-wins Windows vs Linux vs Mac wars ? :-(

Because.. (quoting you)

Yes, AmigaOS has no "memory protection", but for some reason those blue screens and lock ups keeps telling me that there is something wrong with Windows "memory protection"... :-D

If something goes wrong *inside* the *kernel* (hint: buggy drivers) then the kernel will "crash", this because modules (drivers) that are loaded into the kernel "become" a part of the kernel, and hence run in kernel mode, therefore they are privileged to destroy data in the kernel space, generally speaking. This is very different to processes that run in user space, those cannot {bleep} around in kernel space and pages which they have not been mapped to their virtual adress space. Hence no normal app can give windows "blue screens", in contrast to AmigaOS tasks/processes about which the story is pretty obvious.

Can we go back to Coldfire ?

You are free man, but why enter a discussion and ask for permission to leave it ?

[Einstein]

AeroMan wrote:
Ok, I recognize it was my fault to express my frustration with Windows problems, and I apologize for that, even if I don't agree with you.

Reality and facts ignore personal opinions, sorry to say.

Can we go back to Coldfire ?  :-D It was getting really interesting...

You are still free to do so.

HenryCase wrote:

Not true. AmigaOS4, MorphOS, AROS64 all have at least partial memory protection.

Yea, remember the (tiny) shield and the samurai ?

I am currently investigating how easy it will be to add full memory protection to AROS (without throwing away AmigaOS 3.1 API compatibility),

No can do without an emulation/compatibilty layer, you still need an emulation layer #?UAE style if you want a portable yet amiga compatible OS, I belive bloodline gave you the reason why you can't just add MP to exec and think everythings gonna be alright.

and so I asked you which version you had used so I could get an idea of the stability compared to the other memory protection options.

Like I pointed out, it's *irrelevant*, if a buggy app copmtabile with OS 3.1, 2.1, and 1.3 runs in these it will bring'em down regardless how "stable" (bugless) any particular OS version is.

So I'll ask again, which version of AmigaOS were you using?

Last time it was 1.3, 2.0 and 3.something AIAB, when several soundtrackers sent the OS to hell. Offcourse those Soundtrackers werent compatible with the higher versions, but my point remains. Since then I havent touched any of'em.

Karlos wrote:
Memory protection exists to clean up the mess of bad coders...

*runs away*

And traffic lights exist to prevent the mess that would arise due to bad and "bad" drivers.

[Einstein]

HenryCase wrote:

As I've just mentioned, lets call my idea an MAU (Memory Allocation Unit) as apposed to a MMU as I don't know if what I'm describing is your daddy's memory management system, if you catch my drift.

You could retain MMU, and call it Memory Mapping Unit

[Einstein]

biggun wrote:
My 2 cents,

* Memory protection is nearly impossible to implement under the idea of AMIGA OS.

So apple fans don't regard MacOSX as Mac(OS) ?

* That AMIGA OS does not require memory protection gives it a VERY BIG speed boost.

What is the performance boost useful for when you will *not* use it for anything meaninful when slightest bug in any running task can destroy, say, the CD/DVD I was burning. Now it's (the CD/DVD) just useless and intended for the garbage can, and I'm now loading XP to do it the *safe* way, sheesh!

[/quote]* To secure a system CPU based memory protection can help.
But the system can still be destroyed by BLITTER or bwrongly set up DMA channels berserking through your system.
To prevent this the OS needs to forbid the direct usage of Blitter or userspace Disk DMA. If you do this you will sacrifice a huge amount of performance.[/quote]

Read my reply above.

=> This is 100% the opposite of the idea and spirit of the Amiga OS.

The spirit gets its rear end kicked by spiritless OSs!

* I would like to point out that there are other ways to stabilize a system. 99% of crashed come from bad pointer arithmetic. You can try to reduce the harm cause by the bad pointer by enforcing memory protection (for a high cost) or you can use coding styles which will not cause this problem in the first place. A would like to point out that the Amiga Oberon programs did NEVER crash!

It's like saying we don't need Police Departments, only if people behave than we could rid of'em have gain an economic boost, but unfortunately this is not reality.

I agree that this topic has nothing to do with the Coldfire.
And that for continues discussion opening another thread makes good sense.

Well, claims need to be answered, on spot, sorry about that.

[Einstein]

biggun wrote:


Your post clearly shows that you are NOT understanding the concept of AMIGA OS.

What makes you think that ? trust me I know enough to understand *one cannot just add MP to exec while leaving the (future) userland modules in the same condition*, seems you have not been reading my posts.

And FWIW, I have read Andrew Tanenbaums Modern Operating Systems. Lets not post strange replies out of frustration

Memory protection on CLASSIC AMIGA is impossible and useless ! That's a fact which is obvious to those with some programming experience.

Great, I just started programming an hour ago, happy now ? no more frustration ?
Yes MP on classic Amiga as in A500 is impossible as 68000 lacks a MMU, if you mean classic AmigaOS though (should have added "OS" in that case) then it's impossible also, unless you rewrite *and* sandbox the a whole environment including the applications (preferably UAE style if one wants to run HW banging stuff, note HW banging does not necessarily imply apps that bypass the OS at boot time, but those that does it *while in the OS*)
 

If you want to argue about useless things ok.
But please use another thread for this

What useless things ? the only thing useless is AmigaOS ' glorified performance BS and your ridiculous claims.

[Einstein]

biggun wrote:

Its not about glorifying.
Its about facts.

I don't consider an airplane elegant if something as small as a fly sneezes at it causing the plane to go down taking all the passengers with it.

For "proper" protection you need to sandbox and abstract all and everything.

This means no direct access to Blitter anymore!

Yup, thats one of the points.

This is the opposite direction of what NATAMI or Coldfire design.

The issue isn't what NATAMI project wants to achieve, it can be a refrigerator as far as I'm concerned, my "useless" posts were simply aimed at a claim.

A Coldfire with SuperAGA will be very fast but
if you ask for MP then you it will crawl.

I'm not asking anything regarding ColdNAT, read above.

Please understand that Coldfire and MP are mutually exclusive.
If you want to argue for MP DON'T do it in the Coldfire thread.

Just counter arguments to your claims. If you claim something you cannot seriously demand not to receive a reply, are you kidding me ?

And please stop typing in bold, there you have a useless action.

Thank you, and good luck with your project.

[Einstein]

biggun wrote:

As I said before. UAE is great for development.
You can patch UAE to get your MMU feature for no money.
Then you can use this feature during development to detect bugs.

You can't detect all bugs as those rarely reveal themselves in a few sessions, only later when the poor user gets his/her data in other process(es) sent to neverland (directly, or indirectly through corrupted OS data/code).