Who currently owns the rights

[CatHerder]

minator wrote:

If you wanted to produce a system like this it's going to be expensive anyway, you can't make them cheap to sell unless you produce them in fairly serious volumes and we're talking $2 million + for a 100K unit production run (assuming it's $20 to produce).

Even if you spent $2 millon on chip development that's another $20 per unit but that assumes this would be the only production run.

I think the best way wold be to take an existing System on Chip and modify it to include the Amiga chip set (or parts thereof) as a module, this'll produce modern device with Amiga compatibility.

It's no small undertaking and definately not cheap but there's no reason that it can't be done.

I think your numbers are reasonable, but perhaps a little bit high. Need to think "consumer electronic toy" and not "consumer electronic device" -- I'm pretty sure the cost of production for an Amiga GameTV device would be more along the lines of $9.00/ea for 100,000 units, with a cost of development of $1 to $2 million. I beleive you'd recoup your original IP costs in round one of distribution, and would move into a profit phase with the second lot of units (this would probably be a 90 day window), after that it's smooth sailing and money money money.

You need to realise that Wal*Mart alone would distribute 100,000 units to consumers all by itself. That's only one retail channel, with a single delivery point (they do all distribution internally from a centralized warehouse [or 2] on every continent). With careful delivery planning and smart manufacturing cycles this is a no-brainer.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.

Why would you want to fabricate chips to old specs? That's just a bad idea. You want the IP from those chips to fabricate new chips using current design parameters. It's not a difficult thing to do. Why would you want to do any of what you mention above is beyond me.

Where did I say "build the old chips" ?? I think you've assumed something I've never intended to do.

I said I want to get the IP from the old chips and make a single new chip that does everything that those chips did with the targeted end result being the ability to run Amiga games on your TV screen for $19.95 per package.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

There is not a game company in the world that would not lisence their old stuff. It's smart business sense.

And what do you project they would ask as a licence fee? a one off payment of $100000 or 3% of sales or 10%? whatever it's not going to be cheap.

THat does not matter at all. If it's 1% or 5% that makes no difference. As long as the end result is the company is profitable selling the retro game devices, it really doesn't matter what royalties you pay... If you're going to project selling 250,000 units of each "model" (game bundle) and you tell Atari "Hey, we'll give you $125,000 to lisence ten of your fiteen year-old games for this." they'll be very pleased. I'd suspect it would be more like 1% or less for the royalty frankly.

As I keep saying -- the royalty factor for the games is a NON ISSUE. It's pennies per unit, the lower the pennies the better your side was in making the deal.

I couldn't care less how an OLD Amiga chip was manufactured - I don't want to make one. I care how it was designed - and if this means simply emulating, or reverse-engineering each chip to come up with a new single chip encompassing the entire Amiga (lets just stick with an A500 for now) so be it. It's not a hard thing to do - this is 18 year old technology we're talking about. Any off-the-shelf integrated RF modulator would work with this, a cost of production of $0.72 per unit, and there's already 3 to pick from that are used in other retro devices.

First you say you don't care how the new machine is made... then at the bottom you ask who own the IP (Gateway)... but unless you are using the actual Chipset design (which we have already established is useless) you don't need to know who own the IP. You show no understanding here.

You're apparently confused.

The INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY is probably still owned by Gateway and lisenced to Cloanto (and some others). You cannot retail any product where another company owns the IP. Do you know what IP is? Have you ever been anything more than an employee in any tech company? I have.

You sell something where somebody else owns the IP, you find yourself taking all your profits from your sales to defend yourself in court -- or you give up way more to settle. You're better off making the proper lisence fees and royalty deals beforehand.

Why do you keep going on about the age of the technology?

It's 18year old technology, but it was totally custom, it's age does not make it easier to recreate, but harder. Unless you go the Emulation route in which case the IP holder does not need to be involved.

Again - oblivious.

If the IP holder doesn't matter - why does Cloanto exist and retain the lone rights to the ROMS, and make a profit selling their keyed ROMs? Again, do you have any concept of what IP is? Why isn't AUE or Amiga in a Box sold as a retail product? (Because it can't legally be sold as such.)

Age and the technology in the Amiga chipset doesn't make it harder to recreate - it just possibly makes it impossible to make the OLD CHIPS.

Somehow Tulip has been manufacturing C64 ROMS, CPUs and other chips from old technology. Yes, I realize it's different tech - but its also 5-10 years older... so how the hell did somebody produce those? A time machine? No, they just found the right fab.

I couldn't care less about expansions, networking, hard drives, floppy drives, or anything remotely related to a real computer - I want to make hand-held stand-alone game units that contain 10 games. (Or one that has a propritary cartridge slot that allows you to plug in various game sets).

Hmmm, 10 games... at an average of 2.5 disks per game that's about 25meg + another 2meg for the OS + another 2meg for your emulation software + 1 meg for your firmware... so you'll need a 32meg ROM (maybe more depending on which games you want to use)... which isn't going to be cheap.

The Amiga never used cartridges, so you are totally on your own... how do you get these catridges to boot? How much do the cartridges cost to manufacture? How do you deal with multiple disks on one cartridge?

You're way off in the size of the games. The vast majority of the games came on single 800K disks. Many great games could fit along with 3 or 4 other great games on ONE of those disks. Who said the first Amiga RetroGamer or TVGamer would have to be AGA (where most of the multi-disk games are found)? Maybe it would basically be a 1MB A500 which would give it access to 200 times more games?

Who cares that the Amigas never came on cartridges?! The delivery mechanism for the data ROM (containing the game) doesn't matter in the least regarding how/if it works.

The Amiga games never came on ADFs and they weren't bought on my PC's 200GB hard drive formatted in NTFS yet they still load and play in my Amiga emulator. I can put the same games on a single 32MB USB ram "cartridge" and still load them in my emulator and so can you (you show that you have a mobile emulating device already so WTF is your point here other than to argue for the sake of trolling).

IF - IF - an Amiga RetroGamer was designed with the idea of selling one base unit with the ability to buy game cartridges that contained various compillations, all you need to do is build in the ability to boot any of those games from that storage device (the cartridge). I said proprietary cardridge for a reason - its called piracy. You wouldn't want to make these devices and just use USB ram cards (which retail for about $10 for a 32MB btw), otherwise you'd sell one device and never sell another single expansion product again.

and what about cool, era defining games like "Monkey Island 2" - a game the always brings up the topic of Amiga... every one I know played MI2 on an A500... that has 12 disks alone! I wouldn't buy a box just to play MI2... it would have to have other stuff as well.

Who cares? I don't. I couldn't care less if somebody doesn't buy one of these because it doesnt have Monkey Island. Nobody in the company would care either. I have over 20,000 other Amiga game titles to pick from.

And, who's to say there wouldn't be a single Special Edition Monkey Island cartridge you could buy later on for $5 or $10... I don't think you see the big picture here.

And yes, I do know a bit about manufacturing computer products and I have worked with a few overseas firms getting designs fabricated. (I was head of IT/IS at AST Computers). I also have a pretty solid Amiga background -- I do know what I'm talking about.

You haven't demonstrated any insight into the task you are suggesting :-(

If you say so.

I still say you're responding just for the sake of trolling. You haven't brought up a really good counter argument to why this is a bad idea, or why it would be impossible.

I never said you were talking out of your arse, I simple said that you have not shown that you fully understand what is requried to pull this off.

I couldnt give a damn what you think when you don't offer any valuable opinions other than knee jerk comments that aren't gounded in reality. You certainly haven't shown me anything of value whatsoever in this discussion. All I see is an embittered Amiga user who dreams that his 1994 technology still rocks...

But wait...
I too think it does still rock - and so will 5 million kids who want to play these Amiga games on their TV screens next Christmas.

Though this does highllight soem more problems... some amiga ames used mouse input... some used joystick... others used Keyboard... quite a few used both... then some games wanted the joystick in Port 1 most wanted it in port port2... how the hell do you deal with that? Not to mention copy protections...

EASY.

You only offer games that use a joystick. Wow, what a concept. Think that one through. I mean sure, that will limit the selection to a mere 10,000 titles, but I'm sure there's 10 or 20 worth picking in there. . .

Remember that the source code to these games probably doesn't exist any more!

Who cares? The games on ADF exist, and there is an ample library of 9,000 originals in the room behind me. I don't need the source code... I just need a device that is able to read the data I shove on the game ROM.

And providing you have a lisence agreement with the original game company or the current IP holder for that game, you can easily reverse-engineer the boot loader etc on an existing Amiga or within UAE. I'm sure there's still some talented Amiga hackers out there who would love to be involved in some contract work to modify some old Amiga game software (and remove the "hacked by so and so" loaders etc and replace them with something more sanitized).

There's probably a couple who even read this forum once in a while.

And why do you need that? At best you need the Amiga Name... no one really knows who owns that, though it seems a company called KMOS owns it today. At worst you'll need the Amiga name and the rights to use the OS (assuming you don't use AROS), I think the best place to go would be cloanto and buy it from them.

You can not sell any product where another company owns the Intellectual Property rights. The games, the Amiga technology, the ROMS. End of story.

You need the IP rights to be able to sell the property in any way shape or form (lisenced, outright, etc.). The IP holder most definitely needs to be involved.

So far that looks like Gateway and Cloanto need to be part of the deal (lisence or royalty) - but the question remains... who else?

[CatHerder]

JJ wrote:
bloodline is correct, even if he could be a little lighter in his point of view, so as it didnt sound so  much like, your an idiot this wont work.

But if your not using the original chip degsigns , then it really doesnt matter who owns the IP or has the chip designs.  And it would be cheaper to work from info freely available info on the net, and uae source code for instance

No. Bloodline is just plain wrong. Pure and simple.

You need the IP to be able to do this legally. You cant sell UAE, you can't sell the ROM images for UAE (Cloanto owns the rights to that IP, and I think Gateway still owns the IP, or somebody else like Amiga International or whatever other bankrupt entity out there... too hard to follow).

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Where did I say "build the old chips" ?? I think you've assumed something I've never intended to do.

Then you don't need the IP, you can just go to your engineering team and get them to knock a design together, based on freely available documents on the web and looking at Emualtor source code.

What a load of BS. You apparently don't know what IP is, nevermind the legal ramifications of using somebody else's IP for profit.

I said I want to get the IP from the old chips and make a single new chip that does everything that those chips did with the targeted end result being the ability to run Amiga games on your TV screen for $19.95 per package.

!!!!AGAIN, THE IP IS WORTHLESS FOR THIS TASK!!!!

If you can bring it in for $19.99 that would rock, but I doubt it, there are just too many factors to consider.[/quote]

Again, you show your coplete lack of reality when it comes to the legal world and what ownership means.

I'd understand this if you were from China where IP is a completely new concept (in the past few years), but being from England surely you know what it means to own something?

If Gateway owns the Intellectual Property rights to the Amiga chipset, and Cloanto is the sole lisenced IP holder for the ROMS, and you create a new product based on the technologies of either of those companies -- even through emulation -- and you sell it: you'll be going to court very soon or you will be forking over all your profits in a settlement...

To do this you need the right agreement with whomever holds the IP. It's a pretty basic fact.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

If the IP holder doesn't matter - why does Cloanto exist and retain the lone rights to the ROMS, and make a profit selling their keyed ROMs?

Cloanto have a licence to sell the ROM images. And as I keep sayign unless you use AROS you will have to licence that too. This is a non issue, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

Because you're the dummy who keeps saying the IP doesn't matter FFS!

Again, do you have any concept of what IP is? Why isn't AUE or Amiga in a Box sold as a retail product? (Because it can't legally be sold as such.)

It's because you can't sell GPL'ed IP... I thought you understood about IP?

You can include UAE in a retail product (as long as you provide the source code), as Amiga forever show.

Bzzzt. Wrong.

Cloanto can sell their package and include UAE because they have the current exclusive rights to produce/reproduce the ROMS. Name another legal UAE retailer. ?

Somehow Tulip has been manufacturing C64 ROMS, CPUs and other chips from old technology. Yes, I realize it's different tech - but its also 5-10 years older... so how the hell did somebody produce those? A time machine? No, they just found the right fab.

No, they either used a 6502 compatible microcontroler, or use an ARM runing an emulation. Though, looking at the Nintendo and other units, they seem to be recreations of the games, i.e. recoded just using the old graphics and audio. And running on modern, cheap, hardware.

Excellent... you chomped right down on that one.

EXACTLY!! They are using a current customized chip(s) to run the 64 TVGamer, and have modified the games (hey, what do you know they somehow modified TWENTYFIVE YEAR OLD games. Wow, but you said up above that's impossible because the source code would all be gone...)

"Trivia details - Jeri spent hundreds of hours developing the ASIC for the C64= DTV. In her quest to get the C64 DTV just right, she traveled to China and stayed there for a week, making daily journeys between her hotel in Hong Kong and the Mammoth Toy factory, working usually until 10 at night. ...

She also went to Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada for a few days to partner up with Robin Harbron, who worked on converting the games for the DTV"

No, my point about ADFs is that you will need a special loader on your hardwareto handle loading the ADF's either onto your machine or into the emulator you choose... and there is the issue of disk swaping... some thing that the user doesn't want to be bothered with... that will require a simple and powerful loader + a nice pretty menu...

BZZZT wrong again.

Who said anything about providing the games in adf format? I don't think you have the ability to think past step one of every idea presented. I said an Amiga emulator can currenty read Amiga games from multiple data sources - sources that did not exist when an Amiga was around.

That was in response to why you thought you couldn't use a cartridge. Now you're changing it to cost (which I mentioned on PAGE ONE of this thread). Come on man, you're trolling pure and simple.

THe games are ALL out there in ADF format - so, you load em up in your hand dandy Amiga emulator, and you save them in some other format. OR, you load em up on your handy dandy real Amiga and you save them in some other format. (not a hard concept, work with me here)

The reason why you wouldn't use USB Cartridge is not for piracy concerns, but because adding USB host support to your device would cost a lot! But then adding any kind of Cartridge support to the design is going to cost you...

You want something proprietary so people don't grab games offline (in the initial first year of the product's lifecycle) and use them with your game device. You want somethig that generates sales. I don't care about expandability, portability (other than it's physical size), etc. I want something that sells, and resells. I already know (I've sourced them) that I can buy 16MB USB "carts" for $0.98 each from Taiwan (lots of 5,000). I'm sure if I bought 100,000 of them I could get them for $0.35 or $0.40 each. If it were possible to put an interface on the GameTV device that accepted those USB "carts", and it didnt cost $2-$5 to do so, then maybe it would be an ok idea.

But it's not an ok idea from the company's point of view:  because you can also plug that USB 16MB cart into your PC or Mac and potentially run other games on the GameTV -- games that people didn't pay the company for. (I'd give it 30 days for somebody on the internet to come up with an "ADF to GameTV converter" if you used USB).

However, you're right about the usb-hc cost being too high (about a buck fifty) if you're trying to make these for under $10 each. The biggest problem then ,though, would be power - you couldn't expect this to work without an AC adapter if you included USB, batteries just wouldn't cut it (or you'd need expensive battery packs).

Although... including a USB port would allow you to use a mouse. But there again, a huge power sucker when it comes to the size of what we're discussing here. And you'd need two ports if you wanted to use a game cart and a mouse (even more expense).

You only offer games that use a joystick. Wow, what a concept. Think that one through. I mean sure, that will limit the selection to a mere 10,000 titles, but I'm sure there's 10 or 20 worth picking in there. . .

Ahh that ok then... I though you'd want to include Lemmings and Worms + the countless RPG's that Amiga users spent most of their time playing, and made the Amiga famous.

[/quote]

Yes, you're right there. Dungeon Master, Settlers, etc... But that fare really isn't suited as a "TV" game is it. You want a bunch of shoot em ups, beat em ups, and drive em fasts. (Remember, the primary market wouldn't be old Amiga users, it would be today's kids).

Including a mouse "emulator" and remapping the buttons and the joystick (just like you do on an XBox when emulating an Amiga) would solve that and not add anything to the cost. It wouldn't be as playable though (joystick emulating a mouse never is), perhaps a mouse-port is in order... bah added expense again!

The beauty of selling these as an all-inclusive 10 games per GameTV device is you can customize the controls based on what games you bundle. That's the concept (single stand alone ~10 game GameTV devices or "Amiga RetroGamer"). I've bandied about the idea of a cartridge version and I suppose it could be handled in the same sort of way - the "emulator" pulls the controller information from whatever cartridge is installed.

[CatHerder]

Samuar wrote:
The MIPS + Uae idea looks to be the simplest, quickest and cheapest way of getting this product idea to market - as suggested by bloodline - which only leaves getting licenses for games.

However, a prototype shouldnt be too hard to knock up, which could run games that we already have single licenses for.

Running Uae ontop of another OS seems practical, especially if a little extra time is taken to make the os, say linux, small, lightweight and can boot quickly - almost becoming invisible to the consumer. This isnt too difficult to do as linux is excellent in embedded devices.

Once a prototype is ready, it could be demo'd at Amiga Shows (tho the device is more aimed at any home users, rather than amiga followers) and then aim to get some financial backing and get IP issues sorted.

I'd be interested in working on such a project.


Samuar


Edit/Addition:
The Sega Dreamcast uses a SuperH processor as opposed to a MIPS. However, with a bit of hardware and software work, it could be used as a proof of theory concept prototype.

That sounds like a far too pricey a product. Nothing like what I'm talking about at all. But good luck with it. Wait, can't you do the above, exactly, already with a $200 hand-held device?

I want to retail $20 to $25 game devices, and the money to make it is not the issue.

[CatHerder]

JJ wrote:
I am not arguing or trying to cause an argument, just trying to point out flaws, and possible better , easier, cheaper ways of doing things, it just so happens that bloodline is saying them first, with no tact at all  :-)  :-D  :-D  :-D

Actually, you haven't argued or pointed out a single thing. All you've done is applied your lips to bloodline's ass repeatedly. Seriously. Show me ONE SINGLE THING you've added to this thread.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Samuar wrote:
UAE already works on Sega Dreamcasts - which come with controllers and TV-OUT; second hand they are about £20 and you can purchase Keyboards and Mice for them. Hell, I've got Doom on Linux running on mine.

Out of this box, we wouldnt need the GD-ROM Drive (special kind of CD-ROM) if replaced with flash; no need for the Modem or Broadband adapter - which would reduce its profile considerably.

Now that's a much better idea!

Get a simple MIPS box with a cheap VGA chip + an RF + USB. Put linux and UAE on it and you have your retro box.

Now you're saying a $130-$150 retail box item is a better idea... Interesting.

There are two flaws to your whole line of thinking. 1. It will never happen if the end product is in that price range. Anything over $50 and it will never see the light of day in the retail channels (you will never be able to convince anyone with a business model that claims people will pay $90 or $100 for these things when they can get an XBox, GameCube or PS2 for not a whole lot more -- and those offer NEW games).

And 2. the fact still remains: you need to license or purchase the IP for the ROMS (1.3 or 3.0 specifically) if you expect to sell these and not get sued for it. I also think Gateway (or whomever actually owns the Amiga IP) would be very interested in a product that is making money off emulating Amiga technologies. You can bet their lawyers will be knocking on the door very soon after your launch if you don't ensure you have the IP in order.

The reason retro gaming is so successful is because of the price point. It's nothing to do with a wide desire to play 15 year old games - it's because they are currently $19.95 and $24.95 items that people consider insignificant to purchase.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Pricy?? An SH4 (SH5?) + a VGA Chip + a stereo audio DAC, running Linux. Nah, that is the best idea I've heard.

I bet you could bring that in for $10 per unit, which you could sell at $40.

Have you ever priced any of this out, or you just make guesses and post it?

i.e: how much for a 400MHz SH5 processor? Do you know? I happen to. Mind you, the last time I priced them out in quantities was about 20 days ago...

Do you know what VGA chip you would use? What's the cheapest one that can output Amiga resolutions and maintain at least 24fps? And how you would deliver that VGA display to a TV screen? As for audio, the AC97 (or cheaper) chip would cost around $0.80 per board if you bought it in quantities of 100,000.

How much to license the Amiga IP - that's the question you just keep avoiding because you do not seem to know what Intellectual Property is. $5 each? $20 each?

You will NOT be able to sell any sort of an Amiga emulator that uses any form of an Amiga ROM image (1.3 or 3.0 would be your most viable choices for widest compatability for the games that are available) without getting the IP licensed. And even selling the emulator is dicey at best without also lisencing the IP it's emulating (trust me, Gateway would be all over you like white on rice if you started selling Amiga emulator game devices and they were not getting a cut -- if they still own the IP that is).

[CatHerder]

Samuar wrote:

As to the ROMs, i purchases a 1.3 ROM as part of a Amiga Emulator CD a while back (not as good as Amiga Forever no doubt) - but it was only £5. That £5 must have included the profit of the distributor and shop (Game/Electronics Beautique), the cost of licensing the ROM from Amiga and the costs and profit of the manufacturer. This would suggest to me, that the ROM is but a small fraction of the original £5 cost. Which, if the same licensing were available to us, would be perfect.

That is very interesting. I assume it's a valid (legitimate) ROM as it came from a larger retailer. Hopefully it is, that would, to me, imply a 25 cent license. The cheaper everything is, the more likely this would be a successful venture.

I've emailed (and faxed) Cloanto asking them about the ROM license and what sort of quantity agreements they offer but haven't heard anything back from them.

[CatHerder]

.

Samuar wrote:
@CatHerder

What does your idea use instead of our processor & chip combination and how is it cheaper?

Leaving all IP concerns aside... :-)

My idea from the get go was either the same processor in the Dreamcast and a 300mm fab ROM with everything else on a very simple PCB. Or an embedded processor/ROM combo with all information excluding the games which would be contained in a 2nd ROM (this would allow for multiple versions of the game devices and probably would end up being cheaper in the long run - however the first option might be true as well). There is also another processor out there that is probably cheaper and I know is already smaller (and uses less battery or AC) and runs cooler.

The processor inside the Dreamcast is HOT. Have to keep that in mind - if you have to use a $3 heat spreader (they don't get cheaper than that) it defeats the purpose of spending $3 on one chip instead of $4.00 on another chip.

I also didn't see any issue with using a P2-400 integrated solution similar to what intel already delivers in automotive applications and other automated fabrication uses. It all comes down to cost - AND - what is available out there to emulate on. You don't want to have to reinvent the wheel every step of the way. You want to try to do this with off-the-shelf parts, or using a fab that allows you to use existing toolsets plus your own new tool(s).

Existing intel chips are tiny, and use about 1/32nd of the power that they did when they were inside PCs 5 years ago (I'm comparing a P2-400 today to a P2-400 when they were relatively new). They also have quite a number of existing solutions that fit with other toolsets from other major chip fabs (this means being able to integrate an existing cpu with additional tools into one sigle chip).

There's a few processor options available. The best solution will be the one that is 1) cheapest to buy in quantiy, 2) easiest to adopt using existing emulation, 3) has the ability to be embedded with other applications in a new wafer fab and 4) uses the least power.  

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

I just found it a really interesting disscussion, as it's something that I thought about alot about 5 years ago. The more research I did more, the less rosy the idea seemed :-(

Me too. I've been thinking about this for that long as well (ever since I was running Amiga stuff on my PC and then on my DreamCast, etc..). My buddy Rob had a game console (a converted arcade machine) with a PC inside it running MAME and Amiga stuff years before anyone thought that would be a cool idea to do. Now we have XGamers

The thing is today the idea is looking rosy. The technology is now here to be able to deliver a cost effective product featuring 15 year old "tech" in a way that is "cool". It's also in a way that is "cool" to financial backers and retailers as well (everyone can see how they will make money off this).

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:
-Edit- the Board is of a much higher spec than we would need but would be a great for a tech demo.

Could probably get a cheaper ITX board for a demo.

You can get one with an SIS 2GHz processor and integrated everything for about $70.00 and most measure 5in by 5in.

Here's one as an example.



It's still too much $, but it demonstrates how small a full blown PC can be... one that runs todays applications (including web servers and database servers -- there's even dual CPU Mini-ITX boards out there now). A couple good writeups can be found here: http://www.mini-itx.com/