Who currently owns the rights

[CatHerder]

For the Amiga chipset? (AGA) and all it's sub chips.

Did Gateway sell it all off or did they sell the rights but retain the patents and hardware technology or what? Anyone know for certain?

I'm pretty sure, "somebody" could manufacture a 2 or 3 chip (complete system - heck the CD32 was 1/2 way there)) micro board that was an A4000 or A1200 and market it with an internal 200+ games package for about $75.00 - could split it up even further (smaller internal ram requirements) and market it similar to current Intellivision and Atari game sticks that retail for $19.00 (although the Amiga GameStick would be more of a higher-end consumer device for around $50-$100).

If you wanted to get all fancy schmancy, you could also produce a docking station that included a zorro3 slot, nic, rgb port, serial port, parallel port, etc. I think all that is really required though would be a small footprint game device with a couple USB ports and a tv out.

I'm really suprised nobody did this already. I guess the liscences (and more importantly the ic info) are spread all over the place?

"Retro Gaming" is all the rage and current a huge multimillion dollar market - who has the rights, so somebody with the brains and the money can resurrect some of this?

[CatHerder]

Brian wrote:
Perhaps because although it would be a sweet lil thing for us Amigans why would we buy it and secondly who else apart from the Amiga community would be interested of old games on "old" hardware?

200+ games you say, I'm thinking rights and who to talk to and all that. A smarter way would probably be to include a way to boot of ADF's from a CD or DVD and let the users download the software them selves from the web and then include a CD with only a few realy great games.

You're kidding right?

- Intellivison LIVES just shipped it's 1,000,000th unit last month. And that's not counting software versions (that's JUST the Direct-to-TV game pad alone).

- Atari TV GAMES shipped it's 1,000,000th unit 10 months ago.

Retro gaming is a hot commodity right now. Current chip technology makes it possible to put an Atari 2600 and 10-20 games in a chip smaller than a nickel. An Intellivision LIVES game stick can actually fit every single Intellivision game on one chip - but smart marketing splits them into 10 and 20 packs. The cost to manufacture is pennies - plus the game companies love the new stream of royalty revenue from a previously dead product line.

I'm not talking about a new Amiga, I'm talking about a scaled down Amiga Retro Games machine. The rights to games are easy to aquire - all you need to do is sign papers and pay the money. Any company that sees that they could potentially make a few grand or more off a title that has made them $0 in the past ten years is more than happy to accept your check.

I'm positive if the technology was available (the Amiga chipset - even if it's just 1MB ECS games and chipset) to the right people it would be a slam dunk $50,000,000 sales in the first 12 months. And then just think... an "Amiga Lives" company is out there, all monied up.

But alas! There hasn't been a company with smart business sense in the Amiga technologies realm in the past 15 years (Commodore included).

[CatHerder]

I think that's where people get mislead.

You don't "emulate" anything in these game devices. You simply miniaturize the original chips into one single smaller chip. It's not a processor pretending to be an Atari, it's the whole Atari (every simgle circuit) inside that one chip. Same goes for the MegaDrive PlayTV - it's not emulating, it's the real deal inside the one chip.

The games are contained in the 2nd chip. That's the only place there is added expense - you need a larger ROM (or NVRAM) for more games or larger games. Everyone here knows how many Amiga games you could fit on a 16MB ROM, all you need to do is make one single processor that contains an entire A500.

intel chips are currently being produced at .09 microns (unless you count the 386 and 486 chips they still make, those are still 0.19 microns). The Amiga 500, for example, used Motorolla 68000's which were 1.5 microns, the Fatter Agnus was 1.4 microns. There's the physical space to take the exact designs of every single Amiga custom chip and supporting chip, and slap them into a single 0.10 micron chip (it would end up being smaller than 1 inch by 1 inch). (The 68000 would fit in a chip 1/1500th the size).

It's apparent that the 68000 already exists in miniature form (MD PlayTV), so the 68000 would be considered a tool-set already at whatever chip manufacturer makes the PlayTV chip. How hard could it be to add the other chips in there with a new chip seeing as how the 68000 is already in a toolset?

You wouldn't need the expandability, you wouldn't need the zorro slot, you wouldn't need all the ports, etc for the first cheap version.

I seriously think it's possible if the original chip plans exist. I also think it wouldn't take too much money to pull off ("only" a million or so to get it ready for production - that's peanuts when you'd sell over a million of the things at $30-$50 each). I think the magic price-point is $29.95 though (anyone will spend up to thrity bucks on a kid's gift - but $49.95 makes you actually evaluate what it is you are buying). Maybe it would cost a bit too much to deliver an amiga game TV pad right now, maybe that's a year or two off still.

It's a fantastic idea though.

[CatHerder]

It's actually might not be far from the truth. There were a few things that when taken to task, Microsoft doled out the cash rather than fight in court while having their OS sales halted. Same sort of thing with "flickering pointer technology" (that's probably not the exact wording) that probably played a small part in Commodore's demise.

Back in the early 90's a very smart lawyer in the US decided to research what computer technologies were commonplace but not patented. He arrived at "flickering pointer technology". The end result was IBM, Microsoft, Apple, PB, etc all grumbled and paid the license fee so people could have "flickering pointer technology" (ie. a mouse pointer) on their computers and the companies could continue to sell product uninterrupted. I recall only Atari and Commodore took the guy to court as they didn't have the $1 million fee (or whatever rediculous amount it was), and at the same time they also didnt have the money to pay for a sustained legal battle - right around this time C= filed for chapter 11.

[CatHerder]

weirdami wrote:

I recall that the actual chips designs were lost during the Commodore break up...

I think Haynie said that someone didn't pay the storage fees to the cooling box thing that the design tapes were stored in. Is was apparently pretty cheap to keep them stored, just whoever it was that was in charge of that sort of thing stopped doing it. I don't know, maybe some weird computer stuff collector has them hanging on a wall like some kind of weird art he bought at an auction.

I can't believe this would be the case for the CD32 chipset though. Perhaps the OCS and ECS info is lost, but everything was squashed into LISA and ALICE, and VLSI probably has the AKIKO and LISA filed away somewhere in their old toolset. I'm not sure who made the ALICE chip, but surely VLSI would still be able to produce the other two chips, or at least have copies of the design.

An Amiga "Retro Gamer" based on the CD32 motherboard would be great - the A2200 was just that...

[CatHerder]

The BoXer was a computer, with PCI slots, usb, etc. I'm talking stand-alone retro gaming, not a new computer. The one thing the boXer showed was that you could indeed shove  the Amiga chipset into one small chip...

[CatHerder]

As far as the drawing power a tiny all in one Amiga would have , I would have to say it would be pretty small.

... I don't know that the nostalgia would be there for an Amiga the same way. (Or the C64 for that matter)

You have to be kidding.  :-o

A C64 RetroGamer would sell literally millions and millions (you know how many C64's Commodre sold right? The C64 has one large issue -- TULIP: they have wacky plans of producing a pile of actual C64s for sale in 3rd world countries in Africa etc... (wacky, wacky, wacky! These guys shoulda been in the Amiga history books, they'd fit right in...)  But I still think TULIP would lisence C64 RetroGamers because the market potential is huge.

[color=ff0000]C64 Units sold: 22,000,000[/color] (some sources say 17,000,000)
[color=0000ff]Intellivision units sold: 3,100.000[/color]
[color=008000]Atari units sold: 3,000,000 [/color]

That's 7 times as many as either of the other game systems we're talking about, and over 3 times as many combined! The C64 RetroGamer would sell like doughnuts at a police convention. And if there is nobody already working on one, I'd be flat out amazed. TULIP has the tech, TULIP is trying to produce a new cost reduced version, and I'm sure they'd love the cash flow...

And an Amiga RetroGamer would sell millions as well.

Amiga sales by 1993: 4,850,000

The Amiga games are just that good and STILL look that good on a TV. I was goofing around with some CD32 games (original CDs I should add) on the ol XBox tonight (Lil' Divil and Pinball Fantasies -- both of which play right from the CD) and they look spectacular and play just as great as they always did. If the technology (the chipset etc) is available out there, I sure want to find out who to talk to. I already know I can get the angel funding, it's just a matter of getting the chipsets and rights to reproduce the tech for game units.

These little suckers on demo in Wal*Marts across the world would sell millions. And that's not even taking into account any of the other large chains! (of course it would have to wait until next year... but they'd still sell as many, and the cost to produce would be lower and the chips would be even smaller so any way you look at it, it's a win win).

This is just too good of an idea.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:
No, the Boxer was Chipset emulation on an FPGA, it did not use the original design, but was a new chip to the same specifications, which is a much better idea and a lot cheaper than trying to rework old chip designs.

Ok then, there is nothing to be gained from the boXer for this idea. "Cheaper" is not spending $4 million + trying to emulate the original chipset (boxer history) and build a new PC out of it. Cheaper is using the exact old chipset design and miniaturizing it into a single chip for a game device.

Also, I think no one would buy it or a C64 "game unit". but if you used an XScale with software emulation, that could emulate an Amiga, an Atari, a C64 etc... in a single box... that would sell to the retro gamer. As mentioned, I have no idea how you would emulate the functionality of the floppy based games in a user friendly way.

I think you're totally wrong.

I couldn't care less about making a new Amiga computer that 10,000-15,000 people want. That's bad business sense. I am interested in a retro gamer device that retails for around $50 and would be scooped up by millions of consumers for what it is -- a game device that plugs into their TV or VCR and lets them play 10 games. Easy, cheap, 100% accessible to everyone. It would be a pure winner.

The magic line is $49.95 - the "impulse shopper" price is $19.95 with some success at $24.95. But, twenty bucks or less = hundreds of thousands of extra units sold to people who couldn't care less what the tech was behind it -- they just see a $20 game unit they can shove in the Christmas stocking or in a birthday wrapper for little Johnny or Suzie.

If there was an advanced version that had cartridges it would be more in demand for people who were moderately aware of the history or technology (10 Amiga games per cartridge - the cartridge slot would add to the expense of production, but it would also allow for various other neat little expansions). But, it all comes down to what your cost-of-production would be. If you can bang out the self-contained versions for $10 or less a pop, and retail them at $24.95 it would be a roaring success. The cartridge version would be acceptible if the cartridges cost $9.95 and the game unit itself was around $49.95 -- cheap is the key - nobody cares about the Amiga technology outside the diehard community. People just want something fun, for a low price.

An Amiga RetroGamer would be precicely that. It has everything the Atari and Intellivision GamerTV's have but the games are better, the graphics are better, and the sound is better.

I am not interested in the Amiga community that currently trades ADFs of all the software, or the community that wants a PowerPC version of an Amiga so they can put new video cards and whatnots - there is no money in either of those. I want Joe Public to buy a game device! A "toy"! :-)

If it can be done - then there will be a new Amiga RetroGamer company that has a lot of cash... that company could then perhaps start building new Amiga computers. But, I highly doubt I could convince anyone that there is a business model that is profitable doing such a thing. (Sad but true.)

[CatHerder]

Well here we go. And I am not suprised.

Tulip Computers launches COMMODORE 64 MINI GAME CONSOLE

Supercycle, Impossible Mission, Kickoff, California Games, Cyberdine Warrior, Summer Games, Cybernoid, Winter Games, Pitstop II, Exolon, Paradroid, Netherworld, Uridium, Chips Challenge, Speedball 2, Zynaps, etc etc are the games currently available.

I bet they sell millions.

Here's the game device
This is a better link to the C64 Retro Game Device


Now... who has the Amiga technology?! :-)

[CatHerder]

dbalaski wrote:
That has been out for a while --

Interesting that is is a 64, just miniturised:
http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm

That's the whole point. :-)

Minaturize - package - sell. Anyone that says it won't be prifitable is not in tune with reality. Same goes with the Amiga - I'm sure it will cost more to minaturize it, but think of the spin-off products that could result.

There could be "Embedded Amiga on a PCI card" for the emulator people. There could be "The Amiga 6000 including 100% compatible A1200 on chip for backwards compatibility with older software" or there could be the option of having a motherboard wtih both the A1200 on-chip and the A500 on-chip... The possibilites are endless.

But the money to do this isn't in making a new Amiga computer, it's in making an Amiga retro-gamer and using the technology (and profits) from that to make other products (including a possible new Amiga with backwards compatability).

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:
I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.

P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.

Which comments, feel free to list them - I've been thinking out loud in this thread...

I think you should find out how this antiquated technology works instead of living in a fantasy world. There's nothing earth shattering in an Amiga (not today, sorry). It was "wow amazing" in 1985-1990 but soon as 91 hit, the Amiga was no longer "wow amazing".

All I've seen since 1995 is a bunch of attempts at building PC's and Mac clones that run Amiga emulators. A few faster accelerators here, a few cards allowing you to use PC parts there, etc... No new technology, just a bunch of altering existing PC tech to work with 12 year old Amiga hardware.

You can bash on people all you want Bloodline, including me - fact remains you're wrong about this idea. People are making millions off of realistic products (retro game units), nobody in their right mind is going to invest millions on a computer that is targeted at 10,000 users (that's being generous) world-wide. But smart people will certainly invest a couple million to get a retro gamer out the door that millions of consumers (who couldn't care less what an Amiga is) will scoop up like hotcakes -- all for the games.

But keep up the good trolling.

[CatHerder]

Samuar wrote:
Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines.

I seriously doubt it. If a couple garage coders can write software that runs on an x86 windows box, and that software can emulate all the custom chips, timings, etc., how hard could it be - seriously - for a multimillion dollar firm to create a chip that does the same?

If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.

samuar

Yes, but if they exist, whomever owns them will be more than interested in making money lisencing them. As it stands, no Amiga company thats owned the technology since 1991 has turned a profit. I'm sure Gateway or whomever would love to recoup their lost money.

Even if it turns out that the Amiga RetroGamer has to use an Intel/AMD/etc processor and run an emulated Amiga it would still sell just as well. It would be a lot more enticing technology-wise if it could be a miniaturized Amiga though, the expansion capabilities once it was turning a heavy profit from the game consumer would eventually lead to some cool new swag.

It would also be cheaper to miniaturize the chipset than to try and use a more current processor (lets say P400) which would entail shriking more current tech, and lisencing that tech from a monied up company (AMD or intel) would make it all cost even more. To emulate the Amiga and it's OS requires a decent CPU. That's too costly for manufacturing a game device.

[CatHerder]

Thellenbow wrote:
@Catherder

I see your point, but you are talking to a lot of techies here and not business people. The buzz word is Mass Marketing. It's like pop music, you only need one hit CD and you can retire. Coming up with a product that aunt Mary will buy is the way to go.

Exactly...

I'm saying one thing, and most of the people here are thinking "new Amiga". I'm not talking about a new Amiga. I'm talking about an Amiga RetroGamer or TVGamer. I already know every single game can be licenced without an issue (excluding the ones that have no known IP holder). There is not a game company in the world that would not lisence their old stuff. It's smart business sense.

I couldn't care less what software Commodore or Amiga International owned, it makes no difference. I couldn't care less about productivity software and applications, they don't even factor in to it.

I couldn't care less how an OLD Amiga chip was manufactured - I don't want to make one. I care how it was designed - and if this means simply emulating, or reverse-engineering each chip to come up with a new single chip encompassing the entire Amiga (lets just stick with an A500 for now) so be it. It's not a hard thing to do - this is 18 year old technology we're talking about. Any off-the-shelf integrated RF modulator would work with this, a cost of production of $0.72 per unit, and there's already 3 to pick from that are used in other retro devices.

I couldn't care less about expansions, networking, hard drives, floppy drives, or anything remotely related to a real computer - I want to make hand-held stand-alone game units that contain 10 games. (Or one that has a propritary cartridge slot that allows you to plug in various game sets).

And yes, I do know a bit about manufacturing computer products and I have worked with a few overseas firms getting designs fabricated. (I was head of IT/IS at AST Computers). I also have a pretty solid Amiga background -- I do know what I'm talking about.

I also know that with just liscence agreements from EA alone I could pump out 2 different Amiga TVGamers that had 10 quality games on each one -- I also know that one agreement would get the rights to all Hewson and Epyx titles, and one agreement with Atari would get another eleven game companys IP. I'm not just talking out my arse...

The only thing holding this back is: who owns the IP rights to the Amiga chipsets. That's all I want to know. :-)

[CatHerder]

minator wrote:

If you wanted to produce a system like this it's going to be expensive anyway, you can't make them cheap to sell unless you produce them in fairly serious volumes and we're talking $2 million + for a 100K unit production run (assuming it's $20 to produce).

Even if you spent $2 millon on chip development that's another $20 per unit but that assumes this would be the only production run.

I think the best way wold be to take an existing System on Chip and modify it to include the Amiga chip set (or parts thereof) as a module, this'll produce modern device with Amiga compatibility.

It's no small undertaking and definately not cheap but there's no reason that it can't be done.

I think your numbers are reasonable, but perhaps a little bit high. Need to think "consumer electronic toy" and not "consumer electronic device" -- I'm pretty sure the cost of production for an Amiga GameTV device would be more along the lines of $9.00/ea for 100,000 units, with a cost of development of $1 to $2 million. I beleive you'd recoup your original IP costs in round one of distribution, and would move into a profit phase with the second lot of units (this would probably be a 90 day window), after that it's smooth sailing and money money money.

You need to realise that Wal*Mart alone would distribute 100,000 units to consumers all by itself. That's only one retail channel, with a single delivery point (they do all distribution internally from a centralized warehouse [or 2] on every continent). With careful delivery planning and smart manufacturing cycles this is a no-brainer.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.

Why would you want to fabricate chips to old specs? That's just a bad idea. You want the IP from those chips to fabricate new chips using current design parameters. It's not a difficult thing to do. Why would you want to do any of what you mention above is beyond me.

Where did I say "build the old chips" ?? I think you've assumed something I've never intended to do.

I said I want to get the IP from the old chips and make a single new chip that does everything that those chips did with the targeted end result being the ability to run Amiga games on your TV screen for $19.95 per package.