AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?

[ognix]

Hello everybody!

I don't log so often here on Amiga.org, and I mostly read news and forums daily, but this time I wanted to express my opinion on the current Amiga situation, regarding the OS especially.
My idea about a possible and _viable_ way to continue and grow our Amiga experience is to release the Amiga OS 4.0 for 68k.
The reasons that lead me to this solution are the following:
- Amiga OS 4.0 is PPC-based and presently there is no recent hardware where running it (with "recent" I mean on sale and production right now);
- even if some projects (Sam440, Efika, etc) will reach the "mass" production state, they will be very very expensive (since the small production and niche market), not to count that even the present hardware solutions are very very expensive, nor have a (good) future;
- PPC failed to reach a sufficient user base on the consumer computer industry: I know... there are XBox and PS3 (with its Cell PPC-based architecture), but they are not sufficient for giving a good and long future for the PPC family of microprocessors (and Apple "helped" a lot on this side): why sticking with it? Just for being "no-x86"?
- 68k emulation goes hundreds times faster than the fastest 68060 "real thing" on present machines, and works well;
- making the OS 4.0 available for 68k will mean having a good user base made of the so called "classic" Amigas (maybe starting from a 68030 machine as minimum) and emulator users.
This means more people to sell the package to (more money to earn), and more developers (and more motivated since the bigger user base).
- AFAIK Amiga OS 4.0 is written in C mostly so it could be ported with no big hurdles and not much time (not immediate, with some work, I know).

What do you think about this?
Many people will complain about the future of the platform would be "no hardware platform" and just emulation: I was on their side some years ago, but not now.
I'd love so much to have a nice custom and "special" harware where to run my beloved Amiga OS (and the Amiga was and is a great mixture and cooperation between software and hardware), but I won't spend 500 EUR or so on a motherboard, even if I'm an amigan since 1989! (and it won't resemble the orginal Amiga hardware philosophy anyway)
And I'm sure most of the people agree with me, especially in this situation of unclarity and divisions in the Amiga scene (see MorphOS, AROS).
I prefer going on under _good_ emulation (even with a Amithlon-like system - eg. X-Amiga Project) and having some new software for my computer and large user base, than having a costly and special board, and share my experience with other 1000 people in the whole world, so letting it die after a few years.

This is where Amiga is going on right now in my opinion...
The user base shrunk a lot in these last 8 years and I think now it's quite stable (from my feelings - BTW, how many active Amiga users around the world? Any clue?)

But I won't go further on this uncertainity and I'll stick with my _Amiga stuff_, either my Amiga 500, 1000, 1200, 4000 or WinUAE (in this last case, a system to call and use x86 code directly for computing demanding tasks a-la-Amithlon would be great).
This uncertainity is surely due to Amiga Inc. as well, which is following Commodore mistakes very well, blocking good ideas and proposals and not giving a clear directions doing real things (Amiga DE... mah! ).

And speaking about Amiga Inc. mistakes we come back to the OS: sincerely I don't know which troubles are going on between them and Hyperion, but I hope that development of Amiga OS won't be stopped; if I'm not wrong I remember that Hyperion signed a contract that gave a kind of independence to them regarding the release of the OS.

Ok, I finished.
I hope I gave some material to speak on... and maybe one day Amiga Inc. will be owned by us, the users!

C u 'n Da future.
   Luca "OgniX"

P.S. Many thanks to those producing and selling hardware for our Amigas!
P.P.S. If my idea encounters a good favour, could an on-line petition help?

[ognix]

by Varthall on 2008/6/20 14:11:03

It really depends on what do you use and what you want from the Amiga/AmigaOS. Unfortunately (or perhaps it's a better thing, after all) there will be always different requirements and expectations from the users. Personally, I'm more for the custom, albeit costly hw choice.

Hello!

I'd love custom hardware, and I'd like having a special computer away from the mass (of PCs), but if the price for this is death, I say no.
With "death" I mean no advancements in the whole system, OS upgrades and applications.
If the custom hardware is bought by around 1000 users around the world, I don't think Amiga will go that much forward.

If they could manage to create a motherboard with processore in the range of 350 EUR, maybe it wouldn't be that bad, but I seriously doubt...
...of course problems with  Amiga Inc. should be solved...  :-?

[ognix]

xeron wrote:
The thing is, not only is OS4 PowerPC specific, so is all the software written for it.

"Fortunately" (I know depends on the point of view) there are not many specific Amiga OS 4.0 applications, and most of them have the 68k counterparts, so this is not a problem.

...but I know you (much probably Amiga OS 4.0 user) want more OS 4.0 apps!  :-)

[ognix]

JJ wrote:
Plus the fact that OS4 on 68k will crawl

I don't know exactly for sure, but from what I've read on comments about OS 4.0 it runs and boots very fast on PPC machines, so I assume that programmers retained one of the important postive aspects of Amiga OS: lightness.

But this is an issue that should be clarified by who made it.

[ognix]

meega wrote:

ognix wrote:

 could an on-line petition help?

 :lol:

Maybe I could say "survey", just to check how many interests there could be, by giving some notes on the minimum hardware requirements for running it on real Amigas.

I think that running it in a useful way under emulation only could not "appear nice" to the public: it's not a technical thing, it's just a "bad feeling" that would limitate very much sales (we know, we are Amiga users, we want the real thing! :-D  ).

[ognix]

Piru wrote:

if I'm not wrong I remember that Hyperion signed a contract that gave a kind of independence to them regarding the release of the OS.

That is what Ben Hermans was eager to point out, that he actually devised the contract in a way that it had such independence in case things went south.

Well, look where it got them (Hyperion).

The Amiga IP is the only even remotely "valuable" part of the Amiga Inc. They are not going to let it go.

Mmmhh... :-(
if the situation is like this, I can't think things are going to be ok: we, the Amiga system, need a _clear_ direction where to go, for not loosing the few energies remained in many "small rivers" (and this is the present Amiga situation).
And if also who should guide the entire community is behaving that bad, we don't have much hope on going forward.

About Amiga IP, maybe in 10 years, they'll think it's not profitable anymore ( :-? ) and maybe they'll let it go, but such "option" is not so viable...  (I know... just speculations...)

[ognix]

Colani1200 wrote:
I really don't see the point in this. For 68k, you have a number of excellent choices already (like Amikit, Amigasys and the like). Plus a thousand times more applications running on top of them.

Amikit, as the others, are a well done "pre-compiled" complete Amiga system ready for running under emulation: read Amiga OS 3.9 with a lot of add-ons for a better, productive and more modern system, but NOT a new operating system.

The idea of having Amiga 68k with its apps (and some thousands users and more) and Amiga PPC with its apps (and some 1000 users maybe) is not clever, nor a way to make the systems going forward.

Once again, going forward for me means:
- having official OS updates
- clear idea on what system I'm going to develop on
- how many potential users I'll have
- writing one application and not many for three versions of the system.

The present situation is a lot counfusing, and I don't like it absolutely!

There is plenty of suitable hardware on sale and production. Unfortunately A. Inc doesn't want OS4 to run on it (if they want it to run at all :roll:).  

There are some options, but here comes the price again: I don't see a bright future in (niche) comsumer market for these boards, even considering the economic situation and trends in the western world at least.

[ognix]

KThunder wrote:
[color=ff0000]Aros[/color][/b] for everything, a viable option forward!!!

you need to say it like an announcer though :-D
seriously skip amiga inc. blah blah altogether.

If AROS will provide also 68k and chipset emulation it would be a very good option to go forward (if possible).
Differently we should recompile and/or modify all applications we have (at least the most significant ones).

Anyway I'll drop my hat to all AROS programmers and contributors since their work is really admirable!

[ognix]

Hello everybody again!  \8^)

I just want to summerize some ideas and opinions that came out from this thread:

- beside the technical problems for backporting Amiga OS4 on 68k (in my opinion possible, since it has been written in C mostly, and there are no radical system changes/upgrades), after speaking with some "relevant personalites" :-) in the Amiga scene, this option sadly has to be discarted almost for sure due to the various lawsuits going on between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion;

- for the same juridical reasons also making the OS4 available for other PPC platforms (Sam440, Efika, MacMini, etc) beside AmigaONE and Amigas with PPC is also impossible;

- in this way the only one hope we have for upgrading the Amiga system (at least speaking about the OS) is AROS!

In its more popular flavour, on common x86 machines, by integrating UAE into it to get backwards compatibility (if this thing will be implemented), and in its 68k flavour, for running it on real Amigas (especially in case of system upgrades) and on the Natami boards (hopefully available - www.natami.net).

I particulary like the idea of having a new Amiga in hardware and software: in this thread I spoke mostly about running the OS under emulation, because of the costly PPC boards (but I really like, technically speaking, the Sam440 project).
If the Natami project will come for real, I think we'll have the best we could ask in terms of "amiganism" (maybe not so much computing power, but if the custom circuitry will improve over the present one): of course always at a decent price (even 200 EUR or so would not be bad).

Someone may say I forgot MorphOS: mmmhhh... I my personal opinion it's going somewhere else by itself; I mean I feel it's getting more and more away from Amiga.
So I don't consider it an option for going forward on the Amiga side (despite all the good efforts of developers).

Let's hope AROS project will continue and even accelerate its pace to give us the new Amiga OS (at least) we are waiting for!

Hear u 'n da future!
      Luca "OgniX"   \8^)


P.S. A sad side note: have you visited the Amiga Inc. website recently?
It's a great shame!!!!!  
Selling games for cellphones under the Amiga logo (like Amiga Sudoku)...
Leave them alone... :pissed:

[ognix]

Hello!

I'm here again. :-)
Well, of course the Amiga is a hobbyist computer right now, or a hobby itself.
Please don't say: "I'm still using Amiga as the main computer for all of my tasks.", "I'm using my Amiga for taking care of my personal balance.", "I'm using my Amiga for editing my videos.".
Of course we can do all of this and more, but we are enthusiasts and we know how to cope with some problems and limitations we have on our system (sometimes we just not complain).
But speaking about Bob, the average user, he is not absolutely attracted by such a system, nor he will abandon his PC with Windows or Mac for the Amiga.

If you think that the main aim is stealing some quotes from the Windows and Mac user base, well, it's better for you to open your eyes on your Amiga and its situation.
This would be blindness and pure madness! We are not in the end of the 80s, nor in the 90s.

We should focus on maintaining the present (active) user base and maybe improving it regaining some "old" users that left for other systems: they would not abandon their present system completely (either Windows, Mac or Linux), but if the Amiga option is viable, not so costly and "positively seen", he/she will "try again".
But how could this be achived?
I won't stop saying this: we need a clear direction where to go, an official way forward, or better, "a widely recognized way" by the entire community (since Amiga Inc. has to be forgotten - I deleted its web site from my bookmarks as well).

That was the reason because I liked the idea of having Amiga OS 4.0 for 68k: it's an official release, working on real Amigas and under emulation, and so wide user base (so no MorphOS splits).

But during discussions we discovered that this won't happen for sure, as presently the lastest "official" Amiga OS, working on (few) PPC platforms is at a deadline: no Amiga Inc., no Hyperion, no future in this direction.
Maybe you can run OS 4.0 on MacMini, but this is just a nice geek trick and satisfaction (done with some stolen files AFAIK), and really not a way for going on.

What's "going on"?
Going on is new OS releases, new software releases, new hardware.
In this moment Amiga is really "retrocomputing", and not "present computing", and despite I like soooo much retrocomputing (C-64 rulez! ) ), this is something Amiga doesn't deserve.
It (or she ) still has some hidden powers for the making a better future in computing, something which is somehow even difficult to clearly explain... we just want to express our view about computing!

For what we discussed about it seems that AROS is the only hope for getting a new OS release for a wide user base, even if not in short time, with potential for evolve.
Once the 3.9 compatibility is got (at function level), we have a starting point and we can improve from there.
When hopefully UAE will be transparently integrated inside of it (in a VM or whatever), for getting Amiga legacy stuff to work, it could be released in various flavours: the main one (as from most AROS supporters) x86, 68k and PPC.
x86 for running the system on off-the-shelf components, on huge computing power machines; this would permit an easy "try again" to ex-Amiga users.
68k for running it on real Amigas (so without UAE) and hopefully Natami systems.
In this way the hardcore Amiga user will recognise AROS as an official release, and feel the continuity of the system, not switching to a completely new one.
And for Natami this would provide the system a join up into community, promoting it as a viable way for those who like so much OS and custom hardware integration and want to upgrade (this would need some cooperation between AROS developers and Natami responsibles of course, but could be done).
PPC flavour would be good for those who spent thousands euros on their systems in these years.

Would be nice to see inside the development environment of AROS, a clean and elegant way to compile your application for all the available platforms with just a few mouse clicks (maybe it's not as easy as it seems).

With this you may say that only "old people" from the 80s and early 90s will be interested and will use the system: well, we cannot ask for more than this right now.
Once we reached a better situation (if so), we'll see how to improve more.

Hear u 'n da future!
      Luca "OgniX"   \8^)


P.S. Please don't say "Please, port Amiga OS on the iPhone." otherwise I would ask "Port the Amiga OS on my kitty."!