SAM 460 poor performance, high price

[Louis Dias]

Actually, Altivec isn't irrelevant. It is used (albeit not as extensively as I'd like) in MiniGL, the avcodec library, and IIRC, some other parts of the OS too. Even if it weren't used at present, it's important enough that Freescale have finally decided to add it to their QorIQ range of processors. About time! It would be nice if Applied Micro could follow suit; their new dual-core PowerPC processor would be a lot more interesting if it included altivec.

The Sam 460ex is meant to be a low-end machine. It may not have altivec, but it's still a nice machine. It's a good step up from the Sam 440 series, and I prefer it over my A1-XE G4. Why? Mainly because of the PCI-Express bus and faster RAM.

Having said that, I'm still getting an A1-X1000.

Hans

+1

I think the faster bus and gpu will give it quite a gaming edge over Macs once good 3d drivers are done!

[Louis Dias]

By the time its released I would imagine the last of the line of the PPC macs will be supported, and from what I can gather there will be very little difference between them and the X1000, excepet of course about £2k in price

As I've mentioned before, the fastest PPC Mac (G5) used DDR2-533 memory.
The X1000 should outperform it.  The SAM460 already outperforms a G4 1.5Ghz on large memory intensive tasks.

They both support modern graphics cards that will never see the light of day on Mac hardware so they will have a gaming edge for 3D.

The classic Amigas were faster in there day than PCs because the cpu had fast custom chips supporting it.  SAM460 and X1000 have faster "custom" chips (and bus) than the Macs...and by "custom", I mean every chip that is not the cpu.

There is also something to be said for *new* vs. *used*.

Personally, I don't see why MOS isn't ported to SAM440/460.  People in particular currently owning 440's may be selling them in order to upgrade to the 460...  People already in possession of a SAM would be making a conscious decision to support MOS so I don't see why the powers that be simply don't do it.  Gotta love politics...

[Louis Dias]

I guess we should all laugh at everyone that bought a Minimig!
Those suckers paid >$42/Mhz...

/fail

I own 3 cars.  A 1997 Corvette and 2 1987 Fiero GT's.  I've spent more on the Fieros (each) than the Corvette.  It's a hobby.  Prices are irrelevant.

People complaining about prices need a new hobby.

[Louis Dias]

Well I heard they were porting MorphOS to the GC and Wii next

Then I'd actually try it out using hardware I actually own.  What a novel concept.

I also love how everytime I say something you don't agree with and can't counter, you go into stupid-troll mode.

[Louis Dias]

Really? What are you basing this on?

The numbers I've seen are:

SAM460 AMCC460 1.167GHz

Code: [Select]

---> RAM <---
READ32: 311 MB/Sec
READ64: 310 MB/Sec
WRITE32: 521 MB/Sec
WRITE64: 521 MB/Sec
WRITE: 1251 MB/Sec (Tricky)

Mac Mini 7447 1.5GHz

Code: [Select]

---> RAM <---
READ32: 387 MB/Sec
READ64: 403 MB/Sec
WRITE32: 771 MB/Sec
WRITE64: 771 MB/Sec
WRITE: 809 MB/Sec (Tricky)

By your own listing there, the last write speed listed was 50% higher probably because it involves writing to main ram.  If these tests were performed using local cache then the Mac will win.  Writing to actually RAM and reading from actual ram should be faster on the SAM as someone else posted earlier.

Anyone can make a test that is more favorable to one platform or the other.

I'll wait for some real world benchmarks.
The fact of the matter is it will talk faster to the gpu, like it or not.  SAM460 will *feel* faster than it's 1.15MHz.

SAM
---> VIDEO BUS <---
READ: 72 MB/Sec
WRITE: 261 MB/Sec

MAC
---> VIDEO BUS <---
READ: 32 MB/Sec
WRITE: 180 MB/Sec

Even your posting was biased...sad...

[Louis Dias]

I think you are wrong.  The Mac will actually be faster in real world use and fell faster due to MoprhOS being a quicker OS than AOS4.
 
I go into troll mode with you when I get bored of your views which you dont ever back up with actual evidence.  And jsut to remind myself and other people the rubbish you are capable of coming up with.

So you finally admit being a troll.  Quoted for accuracy.

The bottomline is I have actual hardware and software experience.  I am employed in a technical position.  I've been an IT admin and am currently a developer.  I did take courses in Computer Engineering.  People like you can understand simple concepts.

Fact: Quake3 will run faster on a SAM460 than on a G4 and that is directly because of video card performance.  Please return to your bridge.

[Louis Dias]

Better yet, Quake III and Blender benchmarks for real life speed.

Despite the updated PCI bus drivers on SAM440, it did not improve Quake 3 there.  Quake 3 loads everything it needs into the gpu at the start of the level.  The gpu is the limiting factor in games using 3D like that.  Sam460 supports faster gpus than are possible on Macs and Sam440.

[Louis Dias]

People like me can understand simple concepts.   Just as well I am not a programmer for a living then., oh wait there, thats what I do

Then counter with reasonable arguments instead of trolling...

[Louis Dias]

All of these tests go to main memory. There are separate tests to L1 and L2 caches. Ask Crisot for details.

This test was created by Crisot, OS4 user. The test was run by OS4 beta tester. Sure you could blame me for trying to use my mind control powers to affect these people but you give me way too much credit.


Pot, kettle.

Here is my view.
I don't care what OS SAM460 is running.
SAM460 will run 3D intensive games better than any Mac regardless of what OS is on the Mac.

Nothing is stopping you from porting to it.  Instead you make it an OS issue of AOS4 vs. MOS.  It's old already.

[Louis Dias]

My 2009 MacPro would like a word with you...

Oh?  I guess you forget that we are still on planet PPC in Amigaland...

[Louis Dias]

I think what matters the most is what you have available today. With currently available drivers MorphOS 3D runs circles around this sam460.

By time time some sort of 3D support will be available for Sam460 MorphOS might have new 3D drivers released. They already run quake3 150fps on puny Radeon 9200.

I won't even bother splitting hairs about using PCIE<->PCI bridge and all that nonsense which might allow Macs to use some yet unknown future gfxcard.

If a bridge is still limited to PCI speeds.  I'm glad you are basing Mac power on this 'magic bridge'...

[Louis Dias]

@lou_dias

So any comment on as to why this Sam460 with supposedly superior memory bus loses to 6+ year old Mac mini G4? Or did we change the subject already?


So again, what are you basing this claim on? Or did you just assume something here without actually checking?

I know memory allocation on OS4 is slower than MOS, so I really don't dispute the data.
I told you the OS is irrelevant to me.  Regardless, despite OS4's inefficiency, it still beat the G4 on some tests.

In the ones that matter to me where real world benefits can clearly be seen (read gpu speeds) the Mac loses.

If a task takes 50% cpu power on a SAM but only 33% cpu power on a Mac and they complete in virtually the same amount of time, I don't see a difference, but when a game like Quake 3 can run at much higher framerates on the SAM460 because the actual cpu overhead of that game can even be handled by a Sam440, then I see a difference.

Understand?

[Louis Dias]

Oh interesting. Now if you'd just tell me what memory allocation speed has to do with memory access performance? I don't quite follow.

Lets check again once the GPU is actually used for anything. You know... in real world.

Look, the SAM beat the Mac in many of the write tests:

L1 WRITE64: 8882 MB/Sec
vs
L1 WRITE64: 3794 MB/Sec

for example.  Mac only beats the read tests by about 20% but in some of the write tests the SAM wins by a wider margin.

So yes, overall I would say I'll take the SAM particularly because it killed the mac on video bus speed.

You tell me what's more important in a cpu: reading or writing data to memory?
I say both.  So to me I don't see the G4 with an advantage here.  Getting info into a cpu is useless without getting it out as well.

My advice: port MOS to SAM460...then compare Apples to SAMs...and increase your potential available hardware at the same time.

[Louis Dias]

Actually with quake3 only textures are loaded to the graphics card memory.

Everything else is transferred per frame, and this accounts to typically several hundreds of KB of data up to 1MB.

Also since these transfers are synchronous on current OS4 3D system the CPU is busy performing these transfers. MorphOS 3D system uses asynchronous AGP transfers leaving the CPU free to perform other tasks.

Texture mapping is the bulk of what the gpu is doing.  They get loaded once into the gpu at the start of the level.  The level is fixed.  Only the players "move".  The level is much bigger than the players.  The rendering is done on the gpu based the camera position passed from the cpu and player positioning.  Please don't twist things.  The cpu is reading player input and keeping track of the two combatants and bullets.  Once the level starts, the bandwidth used to send data to the gpu is low.  It boils down to the gpu being able to render the scene without dropping frames.

On the DV player, data is constantly being streamed over the to the GPU for displaying hence the bigger improvement in framerates via the PCI bus driver upgrade.

Stop making it an OS issue when it's mostly a hardware issue.  SAM440 is underpowered.  We know this.  SAM460 is much better hardware than only the cpu comparison over the '440 shows.

[Louis Dias]

Oh, can you tell me what cache speed has to do with system bus speed?

Plenty.   That's what the cpu's working with until a flush is required.