Excitement about NatAmi

[Louis Dias]

And instead of saying anything like you're implying, he went off on one about it being pure maths to prove his case that what he said was in fact, a fact. One which if I didn't agree to, would mean I was subnormal.

All my math proved was that I was being consevative.  That fact clearly was lost on you as is much I gather.  Even Karlos knows what I said is quite possible...yet you still are in denial.

You had no math to counter.  No argument what so ever other that "numbers don't mean anything" and "mr gamecube".  You couldn't even tell me the bandwidth of an A500.  My quick math tells me it's 7.14MB/s (potentially).  Natami's is 3200MB/s (potentially).  It's simple math and my 100x claim is the bottom end of what is stated is the Natami Q&A page.  So I was only repeating someone else's claim.  You are simply being combative out of ignorance.  Go educate yourself then come back with a real counter-argument if you can find one...or continue to defend the position of your own ignorance.

[Louis Dias]

Now watch everyone as Hattig overlooks this too.

Remember folks, if you disagree with Lou, you are by his definition, subnormal.

It's one thing to disagree.  It's another to call someone out without a shred of merit behind it.  You started the insults.  Since mods seem to allow it, I'm simply returning the favor.

[Louis Dias]

Yes, you hate being asked to back up your claims, we get it.


Actually, I think you'll find that you started throwing them around first.

But hey, it's not like either you or Hattig bother with little things like facts get in the way of your proving yourselves right.


Not arguing possibilities, all I asked for was for you to provide evidence to back up your specific claims. Claims you have stated are facts.

What's genuinely terrifying is that Karlos has had to spell out to you the difference between theory and fact. Given your responses, I'm not entirely sure that it's a lesson that's sunk in.

I'm still waiting for you to provide the benchmarks showing that the blitter is actually able to do what you claim it can. See Karlos' post for why.


Indeed.

--edit--

I'm done. Karl, you're right. I'll just leave anything with natami in the title in future.

Why do you continue the path of ignorance?

So published DD2 specs are lies?
So published Amiga bandwidth specs are lies?

The world is a lie.

[Louis Dias]

I disagree. Most people buy new hardware on the basis of the real-world benefits they get, not what it's theoretical performance is. You don't see the latest CPU and graphics card round-ups quoting the theoretical performance of the hardware except as an annotation in the write up. All the comparisons are done with real-world applications, since that's what the target audience are most interested in.

By persistently hyping up the as-yet unreleased hardware based on theoretical performance projections of just the silicon, you are creating expectations that the end product might not fully live up to.

When the actual benchmarks of the NatAmi hardware appear that can be compared to real and emulated 68K systems running the same tests, then we can start drawing some meaningful conclusions.

You can disagree but it doesn't make you right.
The bandwidth of the memory is the bandwidth of the memory.  These are facts.

The only thing that makes things into "real world" specs is the code driving the application.
To execute a memory move may take a couple of clocks.  So if you are moving 8 bytes, it may cost you 4 clocks in total because it may take 3 to set up the move.  In that case, it will look inefficient.  However the memory did move at full speed once it was initiated.  Now move 1MB.  It still only took 3 clocks to set it up, but once started it ran at full speed.  Now it looks closer to the theoretical max.  Real world applications don't change the facts that the memory copy actually happened at full speed of the hardware...they just throw setup time and expose natural application inefficiencies.

[Louis Dias]

Gunnar has already tested some of the functionality on higher-end FPGAs.  The VHDL doesn't require changing and will run faster right out of the box.

I wouldn't be surprised if in two years or so you'll see a new NatAmi 2 design that clocks two to three times as fast and has more room to spare on the FPGA for new functionality.

Also, the 133 MHz figure is for the N68050 on the Cyclone IV.  The actual clock speed of the FPGA will be somewhat faster to allow better performance for the graphics cores.

Does this mean the memory clock is also getting a bump from 100Mhz(DDR2-400) to 133MHz(DDR2-533)?

[Louis Dias]

There is AROS for x86.  Problem with AROS it's stuck in the 3.1 API crypt and there is no chance of seeing SMP with 3.1.  To make AROS SMP, it's going to take a new kernel (no small feat in by itself) and break the API which will break just about all known apps.  Doable but your talking a major man power project that will need full time devs and there isn't any money for that type of expense.  

I would highly doubt had C= survived we would be even talking about 3.1, they had no such loyalty to old stuff as their move AGA proved.

Hmmm...  I don't see the point of adding SMP to AROS until it has actually achieved that real version 1.0.  It's sort of learning to run before you can walk.
I know you left the scene for such reasons but at the same time AROS has developed enhancements for 3.1 that didn't exist before.  That is good but the 68K platform has always been the anchor that sorta held it back.

Once AROS 1.0 is "done"...then perhaps AROS 2.0 will take the platform to new heights.
Already Hyperions is working on adding multi-core support to OS4...why would AROS development stop at v1.0?

To me, the problem has been that the best that was available for 68K systems has been 3.X...and truly those systems running 3.X couldn't really handle the grunt work that people demand when wanting modern features from a classic Amiga.

The NATAMI, to me, is the hardware that will allow 3.X(or AROS) to evolve to a higher standard...into MOS/OS4.X-land, if you will.  Let's face it, of all the hardware AROS runs on, 68K platforms are the bottom of the barrel.  Elavating the 68K platform allows 3.X and AROS to also evolve from the base of the 3.1 featureset.

If Natami is accepted as "newer" and "more modern" hardware, then 3.X and AROS can continue to move forward.

In 2 years as fpga prices drop, perhaps the next Natami will have DDR3, PCIe, USB3.0, etc...  But atleast there is a way forward now rather then the frankenstein methods of upgrading the classic hardware WE have now.

Let me add that with the Kickstart replacement bounties recent progress that we are closer to that 1.0 than ever before.  The future is bright.

[Louis Dias]

Already Hyperions is working on adding multi-core support to OS4...QUOTE]
 
 
Are they ?  Have you got a source for this ?

Did you not here of an event called Amiwest?

[Louis Dias]

Lou, I have been on the Natami website (many times in fact).  How is my comment baseless?  I am still optimistic about the release of Natami, but wish it was completed.  Did you find my remark negative in some way?  

I would think that many people feel somewhat similiar to my feelings.  I would love to own a Natami system.

Well, it's not like it wouldn't have been released by now if the LX was perfect.  In your absence, the LX board was completed but they found some issues and added a couple more features.  I like the perfectionist attitude they are taking to not release something today that could have been done better with just a bit more effort.

[Louis Dias]

For AROS68K, I completely and fully agree with you.  3.1 should be a priority to be completed.  

But for AROS x86/ARM, what good is this going to do?  Original concept was for AOS code to do a simple recompile to AROS x86 but that was 15 years ago when AOS apps/games were still relevent.  Fast forward it today, tell me what apps/games that have AOS source code available that is so critical for AROS x86/ARM future that it has to be native and not run in seemless emulation?  I think it was about 2002 or so when Adam put together the current road map.  Lot has changed since then in Amiga land not to mention what technology evolution has taken hold.

If anything, Linuxland is where the code for ports is coming from, not 15-20 year AOS old code that is either lost or will never be released for free.  Again, AROS68K, needs 1.0, but x86/ARM versions need to evolve their APIs to match the modern world of high performance multi core CPUs.

But then you have forks...then you can't complile for all supported platforms.
Gunnar has mentioned putting multiple cpu cores on the fpga so there is hope yet the OS will be tweaked to take advantage of it someday.  Hopefully those changes make it to AROS.  Don't know if it will be AMP or SMP though...

[Louis Dias]

It was also commented on aw.net before amiwest. The message was "yes the x1000 is multicore, no OS4.x won't be till release, but it will come later".

It's no big secret, what is a big secret however is when it'll be released. It's classified at the highest level: "When it's ready".

I guess only wikileaks really knows.

I believe it was Trevor's presentation where it was formally announced as in-progress.  The videos are all available for everyone's viewing pleasure.

[Louis Dias]

Benefit to whom? Most multiprocessing hardware you are likely to see is geared towards SMP. Having identical processor cores, preferably all on the same die, helps simplify everything from hardware cache coherency up to software kernel design.

Side note:

I think Intel has some new tech that will scale performance of cores based on workload.
For instance, if you are running a single-cored game, it will over-clock 1 core to some insane GHz and shut down the other cores...and vice versa.  Sorta a best of both worlds system.

[Louis Dias]

Did some Google searches, surprised to see one of my games, "Warhammer" (or "Wowhammer";-) has multi core support.  Once the consoles go multi core, I think that is when you will see the last of the new games coming out without being designed for multi core.  Unreal Engine 4 is for the day when we have "massively multi-core processor" according to Epic's Mark Rein.

Anyone remember the days Amiga folks use to rag on Window users for not using a multi tasking OS?  My, how times have changed as hardware evolved.  I know, just use Linux and be happy it can do the grunt work in a SMP environment.

Hmmm...Cataclysm launched today.  If AROS got a WoW client then I really wouldn't "need" Windows any more.
No, I don't consider Mac OS X.x superior to Windows 7 so that will not be an option.  Yes, the times have indeed changed!

[Louis Dias]

http://www.natami.net/download/documentation/NatAmi_MX.pdf

Looks like it does have PS/2 ports...

[Louis Dias]

FYI: That PDF is actually old and out of date.  You will find some hidden goodies later. :cool:

SATA I hope!

[Louis Dias]

I disagree with that view...

To me the main reason for the Natami is quite simple, I'd like to be able to buy a new Amiga that can run all my old software, hopefully a bit faster on things like PageStream & ImageFX, without having to scour ebay and pay ridiculous prices for an 060 board.

The ability to access the net would be nice but not a necessity...

In that case, the ReplayArcade board may suit your needs. (aka fpgaarcade).
The initial MX run will come with '060 cards so that will still be pricey.