[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[Niding]

http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=499&z=SZnEUD

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From EAB, a post by wawa.

here you go:
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php...e=499&z=SZnEUD
the new rtg driver is obviously aros based and runs on amiga kickstart. thats what needs to be done instead of stupid arguing. hope some of you will now understand and consider what is this "aros fanboyism runining your threads" about.. sigh..

@Gulliver

Seems like its AROS based, which is founded on the whole AROS and AOS3.x discussions, and potential limitations "enforced" upon Vampire from the operating system as it is without patches.

I copypasted it to here cause it highlits some of the issues if you want to evolve hardware based on Amiga legacy. I personally enjoy AOS3.x as it is (with Boingbag patches), but I have no problem understanding that its viewed as a limited foundation since BigGun (and others) have a roadmap regarding Vampire capabilities that cant be utilized within the current structure.
Then we enter into the whole licensing discussion, and pre-paying licensing, where you have to recoup the cost thru selling a unknown amount of Vampires.
Additionally, it comes at a cost, without any guarrantees of the OS in question will be futher developed.

I generally agree with Thomas's points of view, but I have no problem agreeing with BigGun's hesitation to build upon AOS since its not really being supported/developed, and paying license would just be throwing money into a hole that doesnt provide any guarrentees for advances.

[Niding]

Not sure you listened to BigGuns podcast regarding the future of Vampire.

And the Apollo-Team havent really given alot of information regarding what they plan to do with regards to AROS or AOS, or which way they are going.

But BigGun did follow a train of thought during the podcast that if you want to stick to AOS on Vampire, knock yourself out, but for future ADVANCES AOS could be a problem due to its limitations.
Many will be more than content with the original, AOS, coupled with 060++ level speed and ram. Ive seen many comments along the line of "I use and love C64, Spectrum, Amiga etc with its inherit limitations, and use mainstream PCs for everything else".
BigGun acknowledges this clearly, but also looks at what Vampire potentially CAN do, and then concludes AOS, for its strenghts and weaknesses, will be too limited for his plans.
Listening to the podcast, BigGun seemed inclined to prefer AOS if it could be developed more freely, I guess opensource, but capitulates more or less to the realisation that this will most likely never happen.

Enter AROS.

[Niding]

Well, they provide an affordable accelerator that will raise many/most users into 060++ performance range. Ontop of that its new hardware that are not liable to break any second due to age. Not sure whats "more moral"; selling anicent hardware for 100s or 1000s of dollars for that 1% more authenticity, than affordable hardware at a fraction of the price...?

As far as MMU and FPU; they are focusing on the core functionality for the moment. The question "do we want MMU" was raised in Apollo-Team IRC channel last week, and I think only 1 of the people in there showed any real intrest in it (im fully aware that the 56 people on average) that idle there are probarly not representative).

Regardless, there are plenty of software test demostrations released by users that demostrates rather good compability. 100% compability to what tho? I remember many programs I had on A500 didnt work on my A1200. Most issues could be fixed using Relokick or changing parameters in bootup menu, but 100% compability seems like a farfetched goal when the issue could be poorly written programs.

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@kolla

Regardless of knowledge of MMU, Ive gotten the impression that Apollo-Team is focusing on other aspects of the core/FPGA at the moment.

There is a old thread regarding MMU on EAB with Toni weighting in;

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=44003

And again, if people want to run AOS on Vampire, noone is stopping them, now or in the future. But for longterm development of more advanced features, AROS might be the way forward.

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Who in their right mind would pay twice for something they already own?

Depends what that extra expense entails.

170-180 for 060++ performance is still dirt cheap.

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You forgot £70 for tea and buiscuits.

[Niding]

There's no way I'd pay for a bundled kickstart 3.1 when every machine I own already has it.

An empty flash ROM with a bundled patch for the ROM and a copy of transrom is what it should come with. Or AROS by default.

My tea comment was halfway facetious.

My point is;

IF Apollo Team decided today to go down the AOS route, and thru agreement ends up having to add 20-40 dollars to the Vampire; I still would find the accelerator DIRT cheap and well worth the money.
Gunnar has expressed rather clearly that he wants the ability to develop more advanced features, and as such, I would ASSUME any agreement regarding AOS would entail development of AOS/P96 in one form or another.
Im not privy to the details of the discussion, but I have gotten the impression that Gunnar havent found the details in the agreement satisfactory from his point of view. Thats fine. I wont villify the other side of the discussion for that reason.

Apollo Team got options if they decide against licensing, which is fine with me too, just as an AOS route would be.

Im not fundamentally against developers getting money for their work, which some seems to be.

[Niding]

Some people complain about anything. AOS 4.1 FE is dirt cheap.

NG hardware is a whole different ballgame.

As for Vampire fragmenting the community even more;

I think it will have the opposite effect. In the past a "few" had 68060s and more than 32 megs of ram.
Now "everybody" will have 060++ level performance and atleast 2+128 megs of ram.
That will make releasing software even easier, since developers know there are 100s of people out there that can handle quite demanding software.

Take Backbone games. "Requires" 030 to be playable. In the future developers using that rather old gamecreator dont have to worry about speed atleast.
Internet access is faster too. I noticed comments about SERIOUS download speed increases VS old hardware (Vampire vs 060), when downloading to RAM.

Basically; more streamlined hardware which makes it easier for developers to produce more demanding software.
Additionally, people that had gone more or less inactive with their classic gear decides to dust off their old hardware since it got more "modern" performance=more activity.

[Niding]

In their dreams - I will pester them online for attempting at monopolizing the Amiga market till they blow off like lemmings.

Apollo core will leak! :laughing:

You wouldnt happen to be Frankos norwegian cousin?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uia6a4LJcNM

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The whole AROS VS AOS discussion (and why I initially made a thread about it), was cause BigGun appeared to prefer to use AOS for the Vampire. But there are too much uncertainty attached to it (legal and cost), espesially considering he plans to expand Vampire capabilities beyond what AOS currently supports.

I have no problem understanding that it might be hard for Apollo-Team to risk paying a large slump of money, and HOPE they would be able to recoupe that money thru sales. Yes, the intrest on forums indicates there are alot of intrest, but that doesnt automatically translates into sales.
That said, I think Im not the only one that would purchase new versions of AOS 3.x, and Im not against closed source by default (then again, im not a hardware/software developer, just a "end user")
Since there are none beyond 3.9, many of us install the Boing Bag patches.

And again, I got a feeling that a fair share will stick to AOS on their Vampires, regardless of Apollo-Teams choice, whatever it may be.

[Niding]

And what about people like me who do not even want to use RTG with Vampire2? Should we still be paying the added cost that a "legal" P96 would imply?

Depends on the solution Apollo Team decides for.

And I guess thats one of the reasons why  they are looking hard at AROS, cause it removes all the headaches of "if, but, maybe" scenarios, and deals with open source only.

Again; I have sympathy with developers getting paid, but the Amiga legal situation have so many twists and turns, plus parties that doesnt really communicate.
Add 10 000 dollars to that equation, and it muddies the water real quick.

No wonder BigGun is just shrugging, and gleaning towards AROS (even tho he indicates he would prefere AOS).

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@Thomas

I think many Amiga users are more than willing to pay a decent amount for improved OS, soft/hardware.
Its why we have "harassed" AeonKit about Prisma soundcard. Ofcourse, now they have waited so long that I fear they get stuck with the hardware since "everybody" is using Vampire to play sound since CPU can easily take the load.
Question is ofcourse if Prisma can offload the Vampire freeing it up to get even better performance while multitasking other programs/games.

People bought AOS4.1FE just to emulate it, and from what I understand it sold in relativly good quantities.
Wether or not the "potential" sales due to Vampire is enough for developers to update their software/drivers...Who knows...

But it seems Apollo Team is quite open with information, so if they keep updating us with salesfigures, the potential can be somewhat calculated.
People buying Vampire are of the more active members of this community, and I would expect a share of them are willing to pay a few bucks here and there for new software.

And getting offended by Kolla seems like setting yourself up for constant grief. Hes a loose cannon on deck, shooting at everybody (eg veit du har mykje kunnskap kolla, men du liker å ..diskutere.. franko style )

[Niding]

What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're thinking. I don't mind Hyperions demise, nor do I work for them, have a contract with them, have received anything from them, nothing. I mind the demise of AmigaOs. There was a window of opportunity that would have allowed an ongoing development of the Os. Unfortuantely, it does not work without Hyperion. No, I do not like this either. If you see any other chance how to work on AmigaOs - let me know.

I guess we hit the crux of the issue right here;

Gunnar talked to them, and couldnt get a sufficiently good deal with Hyperion.
-Hes concerned with the "roadmap" ahead for Vampire
-He said he prefer to go the AOS direction, but with one entity holding all(?) the cards in that regard, it seems a bit risky to go all in for AOS....again, without a solid deal.

You express issues with Hyperion, so how can you "blame" Gunnar/Apollo team to look at options given "it does not work without Hyperion".

It wont be the demise of AOS anyhow, no more than it has been up to now anyhow. AOS 3.x havent seen any development for many years and people keep tinkering with it.
That wouldnt have changed, with or without Vampire.

If you want to "blame" anyone, how about pointing at Hyperion that seemingly have no intrest in its development? I realise they are knee-deep in demands from AOS 4.x hardware owners.
Which brings me to another thing; AeonKit and Hyperion alike has been extremely quiet the last few months.

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@Thomas

Okey, thanks for the insight into the Hyperion correspondance.