Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"

[Niding]

Second hand market for OS CDs?

Hmm.. I know I have a Windows 95 CD somewhere... Any takers?

[Niding]

Hey now, im just a classic user myself, and dont mind people asking money for their efforts once in a while.

If the OS upgrade doesnt give value for money then noone is forcing you to buy it.

Its like me with Win 7 and 8. I tried Win 8 for a bit. Didnt like it and reverted to Win 7.
Some people like it and some dont. Im not going to hound Microsoft over it tho.

Its not like Hyperion has asked for money at every turn. 6 years since last time or?
I do find it curious that the Amiga community insist that everything have to be free.

[Niding]

Duce, its your money, and obviously if you dont feel you get value for it, then not upgrading is fair game.

Personally I have never used AOS4 before. I joined AOS bandwagon after Toni did his PPC emulation, and I suspect Im not the only one.
As for pricing between versions; I just checked my local computer shop out of curiosity since we are making such a fuzz about it; Windows 7 is sold in store at the same price as Windows 8 (full price, and quite expensive), even after Win 8 have been out for a long time.
The store bought stocks of Win CDs for x price, and obviously wants to recover that cost.
I suspect its even more important for Amigakit to maintain the same salesprice to recover the cost due to lower sales volumes. Selling at a loss on our platform seems more critical from where Im sitting.

So, even tho my purchase of AOS 4 fullprice is relativly recent, I will defintly line up for both the FE version AND becoming AmigaStore customer.
Its now 6 years since last paid version of the OS? Just cause me or you purchased it x months ago doesnt change that fact.
I would be more worried that they DIDNT charge for a new OS version soon, cause how can they pay their developers without any income stream. Or any lisencing costs if needed.
If you operate with NO costrecouping, then you will stop dead in your tracks, no matter how idealistic you are.

I know this logic doesnt compute with the Moobunnies, but it was about time Hyperion charged for their OS again!

[Niding]

When watching AmigaWest ssolie was asked about patches for the current AOS 4.1 version.

And IF I remember correctly He said that if they found some serious bugs/stuff that needed to be adressed critically then they would update.
For normal updates FE was the baseline.

Please correct me if Im wrong.

That said; risking Hyperion asking for money for every patch/upgrade; just to rehash my comment above; isnt the last time they asked for money 2008? And every update/patch since then have been free?

[Niding]

What will a realistic second hand price of a 30 Euro OS be? One half, 15 Euros? Or one tenth, 3 Euros? More likely the latter. Which is pretty much equal to zero. Not worth the effort.

I once spent almost 140 Euros on OS4.1 for Pegasos2 (including VAT and shipment of the physical CD I never asked for, and never used). Now they will ask another 30 Euros for the 7th update of OS4.1. Including VAT and shipment, that price could very well double, when talking about EU customers. So in the end I will probably have spent around 200 Euros on OS4.1 (not even OS4.2!!).

What I really wanted to say with the "second hand" argument, was that if I would ever want to sell my OS4.1 enabled Pegasos2, I will no longer be able to add a (for me) fair "including OS4.1" argument to the price. This would previously have been a quite important part of the price I could hope to ask in total.

So instead of asking something like "Price for a second hand Pegasos2 G4 + 1/2 of 140 Euros (70 Euros) for OS4.1", the price will more realistically be "Price for a second hand Pegasos2 G4 + 1/10 of 30 Euros (3 Euros) for OS 4.1". Three bloody Euros aren’t even worth mentioning!

So after having spent close to 200 Euros on OS4.1, I could probably hope for 3 Euros in second hand value for it whenever I sell my Pegasos2. And it will still only be OS4.1. The one with "free updates". OS4.1.7 will be another 4.1 version bump, followed by a new stream of minor updates through "AmiUpdate" just like before. This could very well mark the first step in ssolie's "subscription" idea, I guess we'll see when "OS4.1.8" sees the day of light...

Seriously? You expect a OS from 2008 to have any value 6 years++ down the road?
In a drawer next to me I have WB 1.3, 3.0, 3.1, 3.9, windows 95, windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows 7 and 8. I would be suprised If I got a lukewarm bottle of coke for them second hand.

The way I see it; the OS only got USERvalue, no resale value, no matter the platform.

[Niding]

Well, there are different approaches to how things are "called out".

Dan Woods/Kookytech and Epsilon covers all things Amiga, and Kooky has said on several occations that he thinks MorphOS is better atm than AOS. Tbh, from what Ive seen I find it hard to argue with him on that point.
But he does so in a coherent, collected, systematic and sometimes even funny manner. Not coming off like a frothing ranter.

I dont see any reason to belittle other peoples choice of platform, nor the developers for them.
I wouldnt register on MorphZone for example just to go riot about how it compares to XYZ OS's. They, like AOS and AROS got limited resources and developers in general, so expections of progress have to be accordingly.

Then again, either "side" seems to have their share of atagonizers in it for the "lolz", so its a thankless job for the moderators.

[Niding]

As long as you dont apply for the MorphOS Public Relations officer, I think it will work out fine.

[Niding]

Not really.

I was commenting on a general basis the tone and how to present a case. I could use AROS, Toothbrush, AOS, MorphOS, a dish at the local resturant as an example.

Its how some people argue with a realtivly friendly demeanor, and then some jump up and down throwing arguments at people like snowballs.

The case at hand has nothing to do with that.

[Niding]

I think what most people take into account when they comment about these platforms;

1) Manpower and limited resources
2) Little return for efforts (for developers)

If I bought a Wintel computer with Windows 8 or whatever, I expect state of the art for the sum you currently get X1000 for.
Even the cost of SAM 460 will net you a very nice Wintel machine.
So when we buy that kind of gear we expect instant response and resolution when something goes wrong. Something needs updated? Go to internet and voila, its fixed instantly for any addtional gear.

When we buy OS or hardware on our platforms we to a certain extent have to take 1 and 2 into consideration. If you havent gone into a purchase with that in the back of your head, then as Karlos said "shame on you".
That doesnt mean I wont hold AmigaKits feet to the fire if something they deliver arrives broken. But there is enough information out there to let you make your own wellinformed evaluation BEFORE you spend the money.

Crying "bloody murder" after the fact seems a bit odd.

And with the fact that its been 6 years since last time they asked for a payment for OS expansion/patch/upgrade, I dont find it unreasonable. If you compare the value vs performance to the MASS production market, then you have really a wrong perspective, and you cant blame anybody except yourself.

Anyhow; this sounds like a discussion done to death 100s of times, so Im gonna check out of it.

[Niding]

Really have to be up to the developers as a team to decide what they think they need resource wise. Its them putting in the effort, and if they feel they need some income to justify the time spent, then I dont see a problem.

There will always be someone that will throw a fit over it, but what can you do.

[Niding]

In the original announcement.  You should check moo they have all the links and quotes there iirc.

If you have the links handy I wouldnt mind a read. Moobunny sadly got tons of spam inbetween threads with content.

itix; You probarly got much more insight into these things than me, but do Hyperion have overhead cost from lisencing in addition to hireing "freelancers"/buying devtime?

If so, there might be costs that stop them dead in their tracks if they dont generate some cashflow?

X1000 customers aside; I think the discussion regarding software/OS being free or not is a "fundemental view" one. Doubt we will ever agree on that.

[Niding]

Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?

[Niding]

Decent post mama.

The discussion about choice of hardware is a very valid one. But AOS made its path choice, and Ive several times commented that the options in that direction is a bit too steep.
SAM systems are okish, but sadly not very upgradable.
So I dont think you will find many that wont agree with you they wish the hardware options where more economical.

With that said, the options have been very visible for a long time and Its up to each and everyone to decide if its worth it to him/her.
With the baseline decided hardwarewise, I personally make my comment from the point of view that how well are x company/person doing within the given framework.
Amigakit and Pascal with their shopfront is one good step.
Aeon and the radeon driver is another.
Do I think its fair to hold the developmentpace and feature standard of Microsoft/windows as a comparison to Hyperion/AOS? Nope, because then you would do nothing but find flaws and complains. Then both AROS and MophOS, based on what Ive read, falls flat on its face too.
Do I feel the urge to constantly compare them with massproduction market? Nope, I adjust my expectations according to reality based on resources.

Basically I, for one, accept the choice of hardware that has been made, and try to find the positive from THAT perspective. Only seeing the negative does not help.

Anyhow, the different points of view seems so entrenched, I dont see much point posting futher on the topic.

@wawrzon,

My baseline when it comes to whats reasonable featureprogress is different for NG "amiga" platforms as you can see compared to MAINstream OSs. Its all about realising the resorces available.
If you insist on using Microsoft as the baseline, the relativly few developers on our platforms would never be entitled to ask for a return on their effort. Including all the bounties.
Some think that is a fair way of evaluating, while others (like me) think ok to ask for a bit in return once in while.

[Niding]

reread my post. im not insisting on using ms as reference. i have mentioned it pretty clearly i think. im comparing the amigalike oses what concerns return/investments vs progress&features and the result of this comparison is i think pretty clear.

what i also i consider a very important pont is transparency. i want to know what im investing into and what i support. additionally i like the possibility to fund particular aspects of development i consider important and interesting to me. this all is given and guaranteed with aros option as default. with os4, if not absolutely impossible it is not wanted. it is like stuffing huge amounts money into a black box. maybe something comes out on the other end, maybe not. the outcome is uncertain and from past experience we know usually very little of whats been advertised up front to secure users interest and investements gets actually achieved. sorry, but i find this business model unsatisfactory and not trustworthy.

Well, Im no developer, but Ive seen comments about problems taking longer than expected which affects the features developed within x amount of time=missing expected deadlines.
As far as "throwing huge money into a black box"; huge money is debatable, but its all relative.

Imho you have to a certain extent leave sanity at the door when joining a small community like this, with all platforms. I dont think im far off the mark if a outsider came in and watched our discussions and he thought we where arguing about "Who are the LEAST insane".
If you want to impose the money vs performance vs timespent ratio too closely on ANY of our platforms, then it makes no sense to do anything but use Linux, Windows or IOS.
Windows; plug and play for pretty much every hardware option out there, why look futher?
And for the developers its complete insanity to spend so much time and effort for so little gratitude generally displayed.

I think the answer is; people enjoy the challenge, the fact that its different (better suited to your needs) or nostalgica. For some its a pure hobby, while some tryin to make a living out of it. But flagging common sense regarding AOS, AROS or MorphOS is frankly silly
(Please take that in the most friendly manner you can, cause Im still upgrading my A1200).

[Niding]

as mentioned countless times there are many repeated examples of what has been advertised, reported close to release, then the public left with no update on the subject or further months and years till eventually someonle mentions it and then it is again being reported as close to release. what if not that should be called "vaporware"? the list is long and includes many features that are available on alternative and less extensively founded platforms, just to name gallium, warp3d, smp, particular device drivers, browsers and other productivity software..

i think that most would agree that paying multiple thousand just for the hardware to run the system is already huge meoney. then paying te os. paying the neccessary device drivers it does not include. buying all sorts of merchandise and eye candy and then contributiung to the bounties and supporting the developers may resule in even more money.

no. you dont. i consider myself reasonable and have never invested in anything amiga i would call insane with one single exception, when i bought a system along with a ppc accelerator. everything else was rather a good value for money. even the relaively pricey deneb card. i have used all that in my work and i i continue to enjoy it till now, which i wouldnt if i was pressed to throw in money i need otherwise. im certain, many feel alike.

nothing wrong with displaying gratitude. but are the aros developers worth less gratitude? i dont understand why what applies to few does not apply to others.

YOU consider yourself reasonable (and im sure you are), but since everything in these threads are relative to this and that with regards to performance and cost, for a outsider of this "community", you scale might be a bit off.

And just cause person A doesnt want a monetary return for his effort, doesnt stop person B to feel/be eintitled do so. Its Kinda like in the airline industry; tons of aspiring pilots running down the Airlines doors PAYING for simulator training and checks, putting it into a underbidding of working condictions. Recognisable pattern and users have the goal of "free tickets".
The comparison is a stretch, but I sure see similarities.