Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

[Madgun68]

How many of you against the licensing system have considered support as one reason to have it?

Generally, if you call a software company looking for support, they'll do the best they can (including Microsoft.) They'll make sure that you aren't, first of all, suffering from a well known issue. Past that, they'll check the installation, rogue software and possibly virii. If you pass all that, you're most likely going to be passed off to the hardware manufacturer.

If you're running an operating system that isn't supported by the company, you will receive very little if any support at all. As an example, if you're running Linux and they only support Windows, you'll be forced to install Windows on the machine first (if it isn't installed) and they'll go through a little software support first.

Now lets say the same thing happens with AmigaOS 4.x. Hyperion will go through the steps similar to what I've outlined above. At some point, your hardware WILL become suspect and you'll be referred back to the hardware folks. Exactly how much support do you expect to receive from them when you're running an operating system they don't support and know very little (if anything) about? It's going to be limited. The troubleshooting process is going to take longer than it would have if the hardware been certified.

There are a lot of people who thought at one point that they'd never need to call a support line doing just that. Is saving a few bucks really worth the extra hassle you might be putting yourself through should something go wrong you can't solve yourself? Think about it. Be honest.

[Madgun68]

amen....the petition is where I first heard about the license scheme...thats when I decided I wouldnt buy an A1/OS4...

The license includes certification.

I can guarantee you that if you call Microsoft having issues and they notice that you're running hardware with non-certified drivers that you're call is going to end quicker than it would have if they were certified. And they don't certify out of kindness..

[Madgun68]

I havent considerd 'support' at all... license schemes like this that claim 'superior quality' or better 'support' are (in my opinon) crock's of sh*t... and should be avoided...I think of A.inc/Amiga the same way I do auto-dealers... if I go shopping for rims/hubcaps... I dont expect to have to buy a whole car to get the ones I want....same equation works here.

No.. But you DO make sure that those rims/hubcaps fit the vehicle you want them for. You don't just buy ANYTHING and expect it to work.

I doubt if anyone's considered support. They'd just expect it to work, and demand Hyperion to fix it if it didn't. Considering the risk they've already taken just on OS 4 itself, I wouldn't spend additional effort (a.k.a. money) doing so unless I was sure that I'd make that up in additional sales. (ESPECIALLY if that product wasn't marketed to my consumer audience and could care less if they sold anything to them or not.)

also severely doubt that A.inc will have phone lines setup to call when your hardware messes up... why dont the current A1 owners see?... or try calling eyetech or hyperion... unless they have good 1-800 plans your going to have to pay international rates if your not in those countrys anyway...so its a crock... in my opinon.

So instead you buy generic PPC motherboard X. You expect it to "just work" and it doesn't. You don't call Amiga Inc. They didn't make the hardware. You don't call Hyperion, because they don't make hardware at all. You don't call Eyetech, because it isn't their hardware either. The motherboard manufacturer is NOT going to help you get AmigaOS running on it because they've (most likely) never heard of it or used it. What then? Spend money returning it and HOPE that the next product you purchase does work?

It's not about superior quality. It's about knowing that the hardware you just bought works exactly as you expect it to with the operating system you intend to use.

You don't care if what you buy has any support options? Fine for you. There are plenty of people out there that do.

I'm not in any way saying this is why the license is in place. All I'm pointing out is that there are valid reasons for its existence. (Not to mention that this is ALL speculation. The only people who know exactly why they chose this method aren't talking.)

[Madgun68]

so what?... microsoft a gigantic real company... their not in the same boat 'AT ALL" as A1/OS4...

Correct. Microsoft can AFFORD to certify drivers for free, yet they don't. Hyperion doesn't have a large enough market to justify the cost.

MS produces an OS and dosent 'ROM" it to anything it OEM licenses it to some...but it sells 'retail'... I'm not going to even debate this... MS's license is far less restrictive (in my opinon)... they dont use rom's they dont restrict who can sell PC's with windows... they sell retail...etc etc etc

OEM licenses to SOME? Microsoft makes more money from OEMs than it does retail sales of Windows. A LOT MORE.

Less restrictive? They used to require that every computer an OEM sold came with Windows. Don't feel with complying? Fine. They'll just refuse you ANY licenses.

All that's being said here is that any board you sell to our market needs a license.

I also dont think many companys that make PPC boards will care enough about the handful of Amiga sales they could make to modify their boards to make AOS run on them. I would prefer to have bought Barbie or Pegasos....with AOS4...instead I'll use MOS.

You're right. They don't care if your their customer or not. Personally, I'd prefer to do business with a company that wants me as a customer.

Not to be rude, but I still cannot fathom why ANYONE would want a barbie board. The only pictures I've seen of this board show a whopping two pci slots, no agp slot and onboard Rage LX chip. (And onboard sound hardware usually always sucks.)

[Madgun68]

Personally, I don't see how either solution (Mos/Pos and A1/AOS) is any better than the other. Sure, we know the stance on A1/AOS, but Genesi has said almost nothing about what hardware they definately are going to support or what methods they'll require for a PPC board to get support.  At this moment, however, if you want to run Mos, you're buying a Pos.. rom or no rom.

It's really hard to argue anything about the Amiga licensing conditions, because the only people who know for certain what the conditions are aren't talking.

The rom vs. piracy issue is highly debatable too. Sure, pirates can crack it and modify the OS so it doesn't need the rom. Does that mean that I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT that because of this piracy wasn't at least a factor in the rom being chosen? Not honestly. I haven't seen a method of protecting software that hasn't been cracked yet. Does that stop companies from trying? Not in a heart beat.

On some of these issues, everyone involved seems to be running in circles like a dog chasing its tail. I guess we'll keep going that way until we have all the facts.

[Madgun68]

This can only be achived with a licencing scheme with officially branded hardware. If you think that this will work any other way, you should spend one week in the support department and see for yourself.

Do I get a free plane ticket to your corner of the world if I do?  :-P

[Madgun68]

@-D-

So....why not have both options available?
If those hubcaps had to go only on an '86 escort,
how many people would still buy them, even if they
were totally slick?

Sure. That'd be nice if that option was available. At this point in time, however, it's not.

I don't totally agree with everything that's being done with the A1/AOS. That doesn't mean, though, that I should take up arms against it as a whole and side with Genesi, which it seems some have done.

Genesi have been playing it very cool. They seem (imo) to be saying just enough to make them appear to be more open than Hyperion/A.Inc.

'Morphos runs on unmodified Teron boards' Cool. It can. Can I buy Morphos to run on it? Not at this time. Will I be able to in the future? Who knows. And that's the point. We all know full well what it takes to run AmigaOS 4.x. All I really know about Morphos at the moment are what *can* be done, not will be done. Yet (some) people assume that can == will and therefore we should all side with Genesi.

AOS 4 isn't out yet. Until it is, I see no reason (for myself) to make a firm commitment one way or the other. Do I want to run AOS4.x and therefore lean towards A1/AOS? Sure. Until both are on the shelves, I do believe that I have the free will to change my decision at any point.

There is no red pill. There is no blue pill. There isn't a right answer that fits all.

As a side note, there are limits for the classic users on both sides right now too. AOS will not support the Grexx and Morphos doesn't do much for users of Elbox products. (EEK! More limitations?! B@#t*%ds!)

Anyways.. My 2 cents worth.

[Madgun68]

I didn't blame their partners. Amiga Inc alone.
Ok, I did blame Eyetech for lying on the bug issue
but that's a different matter. They claimed that it's
all fud and that there's no bug and a week after that
they posted that they now have a fix. You can't fix
a non-existing bug, can you?

Oh, as if both sides aren't guilty of spin.

Ever think that Eyetech said there wasn't a bug because they knew the issue was being fixed? I seriously doubt that MAI implemented fixes for the chipset in one week. (And since Eyetech is partnered with MAI, they would have known about it.)

Wouldn't one also think that Genesi would have some insight in to the fix too? Seems that if they're doing good good business with MAI they would have been told about it.. Yet they put all the spin around the "april" fix and make it appear that the Teron boards aren't going to function properly without it.

"We'll work with you guys if you use our boards instead of theirs." - Yeah.. Wait until after all the contracts are made and such, then announce something like this. I have a good feeling that Genesi KNEW that they wouldn't do it. But hey, look, those guys don't want to cooperate with us.

There's more to a lake than the surface of the water.