Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: First to implement AAA chipset?  (Read 12844 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: First to implement AAA chipset?
« on: September 30, 2011, 08:09:47 PM »
I wonder if the Natami Team is going to release SAGA as Open Source to attract more developers to write programs that can use its features?  With the FPGA Arcade Replay Board on the verge of becoming mass produced (compared to other projects in the Amiga market only), it probably has enough room in its FPGA to contain the SAGA code and could double or quadruple the number of computers that can run SAGA capable programs in the future, since the Natami will be a higher spec and higher priced product that will not match the popularity and wide spread distribution of the Replay board.  (I am not saying that Natami won't be as popular in the Amiga community, but the Replay board is aimed at arcade enthusiasts outside the Amiga community as well as Amiga users)
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: First to implement AAA chipset?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 02:59:37 AM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;662018
By my guestimates, I'd say the Replay board won't have enough room for the SAGA chipset alone, much less the SAGA and the N050.  Also, the SuperAGA chipset is being designed in AHDL so it will only work on Altera FPGAs without conversion to VHDL.  The FPGA used in the NatAmi will have approximately 4+ times the capacity of the Xilinx one used in the Replay board.  Of course that will cost more than the Replay board, but it will also be more future-proof.  Just because the NatAmi is still in the alpha-test stages doesn't mean that it won't be useful to people outside the Amiga community as well.

I did not realize that the Natami FPGA was that much larger than the one used in the Replay board.  I was not expecting the Natami N050, or N070 code to be used in the Replay board, just hoping that the SAGA code would fit.  Maybe it will if the Replay board has the "to be released in the future" daughter card with an actual 68060 on board so that there is no 680x0 code in the FPGA taking up space?
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: First to implement AAA chipset?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 04:54:09 AM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;662300
I have a correction to make.  The FPGA we're using has only 3 times the capacity of the Replay, not 4+ times.  If the SuperAGA was to try to fit on the Replay you'd have to ditch the 3D capabilities completely though.

Losing the 3D capabilities would not make the effort to implement the rest of SAGA on the Replay board a waste of time.  The whole idea I am trying to get across is that if the Natami Team will allow SAGA (without 3D) to be installed on the Replay board, it will give more people incentive and opportunity to develop games and apps that use the SAGA features.

I am a big fan of the Natami project and hope that they have great success in completing it and selling hundreds, if not thousands of them.  It appears that it will not be until next year before any Natami systems are available to the general Amiga community, maybe longer if any complications come up that are harder to resolve than the team had imagined, so by getting programmers started with coding some SAGA apps and games on the Replay board, it will increase the amount of such software that will be ready when the Natami is finally ready for launching.  Also, due to the increased cost of the Natami's larger FPGA and the rest of the components on it's larger motherboard, the Natami will cost much more than the Replay, so fewer people will be able to afford one and having SAGA programming available on the Replay will increase the number of potential programmers working with SAGA apps and games.

I see the Natami as what 99.9% of Amiga users wish had happened around 1992, not in FPGA form, but in spirit of additional features added to the Amiga hardware and additional features within AmigaOS to take advantage of a natural progression of the Amiga's AGA video and audio capabilities.  It is not competitive with modern computers of the last ten years in hardware specs, but it is unique and should not really be compared to other computers.  It serves only one purpose, to take the AmigaOS to the next step above where it was in 1992 to 1994.

I don't want a Natami with a PPC CPU or the capability to install the latest and greatest $400 to $800 video card.  I want to see what AmigaOS3.1>3.9 can do with SAGA and the Natami Team's plans for the N680x0 soft core plus having built-in Ethernet and USB so modern peripherals can be easily attached and used, plus it is nice that it will also have ports to allow the connection of original Amiga keyboards and joysticks & mice.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 05:14:12 AM by amigadave »
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: First to implement AAA chipset?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 12:19:46 PM »
Quote from: Forcie;662314
I agree with amigadave, both as an individual and as a Natami team member. Agreeing on common standards and common goals for the "new classic" projects is very important both for the success of the platforms and for the Amiga community. It creates a common software base and avoids software fragmentation. It also stakes out a way for developing the Amiga chipset further.

Even if the FPGAArcade cannot hold nearly all the features of the Natami in FPGA, agreeing that programming the hardware should be done in a certain way, using the new custom chipset registers for the same purpose and using the same data structures is very important.

SAGA specs will be available when the chipset has reached 1.0 and the systems are getting close to public release.

This is good news to hear from one of the Natami Team members!  I hope that you (the team members working on Natami) will not wait until it is almost ready to release, as I wrote that releasing it now, or in the near future will have the advantage of getting some programmers to start coding apps and games that can take advantage of these newer SAGA features so that there are some SAGA compatible apps and games written before the Natami is available and when it is finally released, there will be some SAGA apps and games available to show off the newer capabilities.

Also, though I know that too many cooks can ruin the stew, it might be good for the Natami Development Team to accept ideas and discussion regarding adding new SAGA features from talented Amiga developers who are not on the Natami Dev. Team.  The Natami Team members can choose to accept or reject any ideas they don't think are feasible, or don't create significant benefits compared to the amount of work or resources they require to implement.  Outside developers and hardware technicians may also provide key information, coding, or ideas that will help the Natami Team to complete the work on SAGA faster.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: First to implement AAA chipset?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 07:39:49 PM »
Quote from: matthey;662333
.....I think there should be an enhanced 68k standard that at least adds ColdFire support. These few useful instructions are already supported in some assemblers, compilers, etc. and only need to be enabled. We came up with a few other instructions that would also be great potential 68k enhancements. I think the fpga Arcade folks see their machine as more for retro game enthusiasts that would not want such enhancements but rather maximum compatibility. I think they are wrong. I think it's possible to have excellent compatibility and the enhancements. How do we convince them? Start a poll?

There are a few people working on 68k softcores separately and AFAIK they are all adding some extra instructions beyond 68000 and even 68020, but I don't see much point in adding Coldfire support to a system that is going to have its CPU inside the FPGA, unless there is some Amiga software already written that needs certain Coldfire instructions.  Or if adding Coldfire instructions will allow new software to be written more easily than could be done with 680x0 instructions alone.  As for starting a poll to convince the FPGA Arcade inventor of anything, I would say no.  I have not seen anything written by MikeJ that indicates he is limiting the use of the Replay board in any way and anyone can modify what is loaded into the FPGA to do anything they want.  Just don't expect MikeJ to do it for you if you want something different than what he is offering.

Quote from: mongo;662346
SAGA is written in AHDL which is only compatible with Altera FPGAs. It would have to be completely re-written in VHDL or Verilog to use with an Xilinx FPGA like in the FPGA Arcade.

I am not familiar with AHDL, VHDL, or Verilog code, but I would be surprised if there is no conversion utilities available and that it would have to be completely re-written from scratch.

Quote from: Hattig;662419
AAA as it would have been implemented in the 90s would be surpassed by even integrated Intel graphics nowadays.

SAGA as implemented in the Natami should be a lot faster than what AAA would have been, even if it isn't exactly what AAA was specced as.

Yes, SAGA will be much better and faster than what AAA would have been, but still SAGA should not be compared to any other PC graphics system or card of today.  It is not being developed to compete with today's standards, but to provide the best and fastest "Amiga" experience.  An expansion of 1985 technology to see how far that old tech can be pushed forward, not to change it into something more similar to what is available today.

Quote from: JJ;662425
.....Whats the point in it, when current Amiga graphic cards can out perform it ?

The point is to advance the Amiga chipset past the point that Commodore ever developed it, so that people that still want to tinker with, and code for the original Amiga in the same way it worked from the beginning, can work with something that is faster and better than the original OCS, ECS & AGA systems.  It is not for everybody, but a lot of current and former Amiga users are excited about seeing what "Might Have Been", if only things had been run differently at Commodore.

Quote from: Duce;662426
I figure the new implementations of the Amiga gfx advancements like AAA are just an homage to what "could have been", a spiritual successor, tbh.  I'd be very surprised if there is ever much software that takes advantage of it, but as long as it maintains backwards compatibility, all good by me.

Unless SAGA hits multiple platforms on these new gen Amiga's besides the Natami, I don't see it getting much use.  If such things are limited to just the newer FPGA Amiga's, there's really a limited market.

Then again, I'm not their target market, as I'm not a gamer and I'd be content with running a "modern" Amiga under barebones lowres low color WB 3.1 anyways.

SAGA is an improvement for a fraction of an already tiny niche market.  The number of programmers that will be interested in writing even one line of code that takes advantage of SAGA will probably by counted in dozens, not hundreds or thousands.  But, as there are more and more people that return to retro interests, the number of programmers may actually grow over time.  When you start with only a handful of programmers that are interested, it is easy to go up from there.

Quote from: freqmax;662428
Yeah, software support beyond OCS/ECS/AGA is likely almost nonexistent ;)

Yes, the there is room for growth as more Amiga users see what can be done with the new features of SAGA.

Quote from: Khephren;662433
I doubt we will see much that bangs the hardware in the old fashioned sense, we are probably a decade to late for that to be much of a success. But I do expect SAGA to get a lot of easily converted opensource ports from linux and windows, blender, browsers, various emulators etc.

If these SAGA machines are a decent price, and speed, I could quite happily use one for web browsing and art programs again, and the odd game of quake2 and 3 would not go amiss either.

Having a modern machine, without having bits of hardware hanging off my Amiga would be nice, and if the demo scene gets on board, i'll be even happier.

I have the sneaking suspicion that NatAmi is going to be very expensive though.

Although the Natami will be much more capable than older Classic Amigas, it will still not be competitive with other alternatives for web browsing and picture processing power, so if that is what you are looking for, it will always be a disappointment when compared to modern computers and OSes.

There won't be many people that want to write new code to "bang the hardware" like many 1980's & 1990's programmers did, but there will be some and I do think that this ability is one of the Natami's selling points.

As for price, any small production run, custom computer system is going to be very expensive when compared to something else of similar power that is being manufactured in numbers that are thousands of time higher.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: First to implement AAA chipset?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 08:15:18 AM »
Quote from: freqmax;662493
Famicon is not an Amiga system.

I think he was asking about an additional core that could be used in the FPGA Arcade Replay Board instead of the MiniMig core, as the intent of the Replay board is to allow re-implementation of many different systems, including Arcade systems.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)