Next step for Amiga(like)OS?

[amigadave]

With the court case dragging on interminably and the outcome seeming to not favor Hyperion, perhaps it is time for the AmigaOS4 team to consider another alternative.

I know there is a lot of bad blood between some of the users of AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS2.x, but I am not up to speed on any details of developer disputes between the AmigaOS4.x team and the MorphOS2.x team.  I am sure there must be some animosity between the two teams, but it is a shame that they cannot resolve their differences and work on a common goal and project.  Take all that talent and knowledge from both OSes and create a new Amiga compatible and "Amiga like" OS that is a step into the future for everyone.  Stop fighting each other and work together and maybe something worth attracting the buying dollars/pounds/euros of the few remaining Amiga fans and maybe a few curious Linux users, or dissatisfied Windows users.

I personally am leaning toward getting and using MorphOS2.x, but would much rather see a combined effort which results in something bigger and better than both AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS2.x.

Let's bring the two split parts of the Amiga community back together.

I know that this is all just wishful thinking, but what can it hurt to express it?  Please no "Red" or "Blue" trolls here.

[amigadave]

persia wrote:
It's pretty safe to say there is no OS5 outside of Taos Intent (AKA Amiga Anywhere).......

Any future that AmigaDos or an AmigaDos-like OS has is with us.

That is the truth!!!

@jorkany,

Are you joking!  If you think there is a mystery OS5 out there somewhere in AInc's hands, you just have not kept up with what is really happening.

@piru,

I think that the AOS4.x team would need to be careful about what they create in the future, but doubt that AInc. will waste their slim resources going after a hobby OS if the AOS4.x team were to join up with the MorphOS2.x team and create something new, but similar to MorphOS2.x that would retain its backward compatibility with Classic Amiga software.  The AOS4.x team can't be tainted forever to never work on anything close to an "Amiga-Like" OS.  What would AInc. have to gain to start another lawsuit against the team if they start work on something new, but are using their knowledge and talent toward a similar, but different result?  AInc. has not gone after the MorphOS2.x team lately.

Also, I did not intend this thread to be funny, or to be a reason to renew old hostilities between users or team members of either side.  It just makes sense that if we could somehow put both sides back together working on one solution instead of two, it would get done twice as fast and might lead to something better than either alone has achieved.

Again, I know that this is highly unlikely as there is too much pride and resistance toward working together and who on either side would offer to heal past wounds first?

Just a hopeless wish that I think many Amiga enthusiasts share.

[amigadave]

Piru wrote:
@amigadave

AInc. has not gone after the MorphOS2.x team lately.

They never had a case anyway, and they know it.

Exactly my point!  I don't think they would have a case against a new OS coded by the AOS4.x and MorphOS2.x teams either, unless both teams really screwed up and tried to copy parts of AOS4.x too closely.

[amigadave]

This is starting to sound too much like you guys want to exclude the AOS4.x team members no matter what and I am wondering if the motives are more than just objective.

This thread was probably a bad idea anyway.

Seems that our best hope for a unified future is for AInc. to go under, just like every other Amiga owner has.  They sure aren't going to do us any good.

[amigadave]

bloodline wrote:
A Inc going under can only be a good thing... But hey why don't we forget about tainted code and propriatory operating systems and start a community based open source AmigaOS, that the community could then "own" free of any dodgy companies, legal issues and expensive hardware... Woe, woe and thrice woe, if only such a project existed... If only something like that had been started 10 years ago... Sigh... If only...

I don't see the MorphOS team as a dodgy company, but I know that they must have their own skeletons in the closet.

I take your sarcasm is pointed at the slow to materialize AROS project that has not gained more support.

Edit: I don't think the actual AOS4.x programmers are dodgy either, but have my doubts about Hyperion.

All in all I think greed and stupid decisions have ruined the next generation Amiga.

[amigadave]

bloodline wrote:
If anybody was atually interestested any more... then it could probably be sorted out really quite easily... Ihe sad part is that no one is interesting in some worthless prehistoric IP and a brand that died in the early 90s...

In a world of iPhones and Xboxes, PS3s and Wiis, A landscape of Vistas and Leopards... the Amiga is nothing more than a footnote in an old history book somewhere.

You are right, not even AInc. was interested in AmigaOS4 until it was close to being finished and they thought they could steal a few bucks from the developers working on it.  

But many of the members here and elsewhere around the world on other sites like this one, there are a few hundreds of people still interested in what is going to happen to AmigaOS4.x and a similar number that are interested in MorphOS2.x.  Those are the people that matter to me and the reason I am here.  

From all the negative comments you repeatedly make (I know you will only say they are realistic, not negative, but that is just your excuse), I wonder why you are a member here and spend so much time and effort putting down almost every Amiga development and new idea.  This is not meant as an attack on you, just an observation of your many recent messages on many different topics.  Such as the comment above.  To most of the members here the Amiga brand did not die in the early 1990's and if asked, I would bet many do not care as much about the world of iPhones, XBoxes, PS3's, Wii's, LeopardOS and VistaOS, as they do about their Amiga(s).  That is why they are here every day and night and not somewhere else, like MS.com, or Apple.com. :-D

[amigadave]

uncharted wrote:
@Piru

That still does not answer the question does it?

If AInc. had any proof they would have used it and not backed off.  

[amigadave]

@SamuriCrow,

Not being an AROS fan, I would rather see you spend your time on Mattathias for MorphOS than a port of LLVM to AROS, but that is just my tilt on the subject.

[amigadave]

bloodline wrote:

amigadave wrote:
@SamuriCrow,

Not being an AROS fan, I would rather see you spend your time on Mattathias for MorphOS than a port of LLVM to AROS, but that is just my tilt on the subject.

Well that's much more interesting! For all your talk about cooperation and unity in the Amiga scene, and now you claim not to like AROS... Now why would that be?


And you call me negative... The ironing is delcious!

How childish.  You mean "irony" not something you do to straighten out the wrinkles in your shirts.

I sort of knew it was a waste of time to start this thread, but I am not the only one who has voiced a desire to see the Amiga community reunited under one common direction. Be that AmigaOS4.x, AROS, MorphOS2.x, or my preference, as I stated in the first message of this thread, which is none of the above, but instead to have everyone working on a new project OS that is better than all the above. That not being reality, now or in the near future, my first choice of the available "Amiga-Like" alternatives would be MorphOS2.x.

I will not waste any more of my time replying to messages like yours above.  Write whatever you want about me, I know that I very seldom write anything negative about actual or potential Amiga projects, and make a conscious effort to keep it that way.

Pointing out that, in my opinion, many of your messages tend to be in opposition to one Amiga related project or another was just stating the obvious and was not constructive to this thread. Have a nice day!  :-P

[amigadave]

Painkiller wrote:
IMO MOS 2.0 is allready the OS that we as an Amiga community should be leaning towards. It currently has readily available hardware to run on + it is a very finished OS. Ofcourse there are still bugs to be get rid off.

I have MOS 2.0 currently installed on my PEG II and I haven't had this good "Amiga" experience in years. The system is responsive, it support modern USB devices out of the box etc. AOS is far behind and it has little to none hardware to run on etc. There isn't a single good program to run on AOS that wouldn't have been ported to MOS or have a better alternative at MOS.

MorphOS-Team really delivered this time, just hope you guys can solve Efika problems and port it to mac mini soon.

Given the reality of the current situation, I agree and I am leaning toward MorphOS2.x as being the best "Amiga-Like" solution that is available now.  

As for porting it to the Mac Mini, don't stop there, port it to every PPC Mac ever manufactured and then after that is done, port it to everything else.

I take it from your message above that MorphOS2.0 is much more stable on your Peg than some of the reports we have been seeing of it running with difficulty on the Efika, is that correct?

[amigadave]

Hans_ wrote:
BTW, combining the coding teams from MOS, AOS4 and/or AROS would hit one fatal snag: deciding which bits from which OS to keep. No-one wants to see their hard work discarded, and, for the most part, each OS has its own version of many features. Some have said that AOS4 has nothing to offer the MOS team. Likewise, MOS has nothing to offer the AOS4 team.

I think that it's funny how most seem to assume that cooperation would mean the AOS4 team joining MOS. If something like that were to happen, they'd probably start a new OS effort with a new name, which would just happen to include components from both OSes.

What could have been neat is if all Amiga-like OSes used the same driver model for all devices. That way, a graphics driver for one, would work on the other; ditto for USB, audio, etc. But, we'd be stuck with the same problem. All sides would say "great idea, my standard is the best, use mine."

Hans

One team joining the other is not what I had in mind when I started this thread.  I was just wondering what it would be like if all Amiga(like) developers joined together to create a "NEW" OS that is better than everything any of them has done separately, and yes, I agree that there would be many disagreements as to which standards to use, or which way to do certain things.  That is why it will never happen.  Developers have large egos that are not easily set aside and who would manage such an effort and control all those egos to make progress on such a large project (my vote goes to Carl Sassenrath :-o ).

I also agree that there is not much of a difference in the features and functionality between AOS4.x and MOS2.x, but there are two very large differences between the two OSes, 1) MOS2.x is not tied up in a court battle (at this time, and hopefully never in the future) and 2) there is at least one mobo in current production that it runs on.

I think the first to release their OS to run on the many versions of the PPC Macs that are both in good supply and are more powerful than any other hardware that either AOS4.x or MOS2.x have run on to date, will have a large advantage over the other (except for the legal entanglements that such a move would create, especially for AOS4.x), but that is another topic.  

[amigadave]

SamuraiCrow wrote:

amigadave wrote:
@SamuriCrow,

Not being an AROS fan, I would rather see you spend your time on Mattathias for MorphOS than a port of LLVM to AROS, but that is just my tilt on the subject.

Mattathias will use LLVM as its optimizer and code generator (unless you have some better documentation on how to make a GCC frontend) so we'll need LLVM ported to all platforms that Mattathias will support.  AROS is just the first stepping stone.

I am not against AROS development.  The only point I was trying to make in regards to that message was that MorphOS2.x is far ahead of AROS in many ways and I would rather have Mattathias completed for MOS2.x than have you working on LLVM for AROS.  If the AROS work must be done first, it won't make a big difference to me, I am just looking forward to the completion of Mattathias, so thank you for working on it.

[amigadave]

codenetfx wrote:
I almost got the Efika board to run MorphOS but then I read a review and learned how unstable MorphOS actually is. Is there a hardware platform that MorphOS runs *reliably* on? (more or less)

Yes, it is reported to run much more stable on the Pegasos I & II machines than it does on the Efika.  Probably just a matter of releasing it a bit too early for the Efika and the team should soon have the bugs squashed, not unlike most other software releases from small teams of developers.

[amigadave]

TheMagicM wrote:
....  If I want to run something Amiga, it'll have to run on my EFIKA or under EUAE.

Anyway, carry on. :-)

Those are two viable options to use.

persia wrote:
 Amiga's future is as a retro machine, the people it will attract are the retro hobbyists. It's like amateur radio or antique cars. Speed and power mean nothing in that world. There will never be a modern Amiga because there is no market for one.

Another valid opinion of the current and possible future of the Amiga platform.

codenetfx wrote:
I wish I could buy a modern machine with a modern CPU and coprocessors for graphics, sound, networking, media DSPs...something like a real supercomputer not this consumer-oriented garbage with flashy stickers and a gutload of branding messages.

A wish that many of us have, but few feel is a possible reality for an Amiga.  That will take many years, if it happens at all.

codenetfx also wrote:
Promise of multicore design is to provide the same coolness of co-processor designs (provided you have software that supports it); you would get a very responsive system (orders of magnitude more responsive than the fastest machine today), but the trouble is that it will take years for software to support multicore designs. Windows (XP and Server) allegedly support multicore *and* dual CPU hardware, but I am yet to "feel" the difference beyond perf. improvement with more RAM added.

AND

Multicore support is significant because old-fashioned software is wasting a lot of hardware you paid for in a new machine. When you push a lot of data through your wireless (or wired) LAN, you are using too many (single) CPU cycles *and* you are keeping the data bus very crowded and that chokes up the overall performance while other cores are idling. This is why even the GHz machines do not feel as fast as they should be.

A CPU/mobo designs which are 100 times faster on paper than CPU/mobo designs from 20 years ago, *should* feel at least several orders of magnitude faster than "old software" And yet it does not.

I wholeheartedly agree that new computers and their OSes do not feel as fast as 15+ year old Amigas, which is very disappointing.  We should be light years ahead of where we currently are.  For some Amiga users, this "feeling" is what keeps them going and hoping for a rebirth of a commercially viable Amiga.  My personal hopes are not that high (unrealistic).

codenetfx also wrote:
i860 failed to capture marketshare because it did not have a lot of software written for it. Expansion boards were very expensive and that did not help either (this should sound familiar).

And

warpdesign wrote:
Unfortunately all people that wanted to move forward left the Amiga "boat". When reading everyone talking here, the most important thing is to be able to run their 10 years (and older...) applications. Not to have a new, modern OS. So development is headed toward compatibility, and not innovation... And a lot of time is spent ensuring compatibility more than having new clean (and not compatible, but who cares ?) API...

@codenetfx,
Yes, sounds very familiar and is a big reason that next generation Amiga OSes have not been very successful.  Not enough good new programs for them.  

@warpdesign,
A new Amiga(Like)OS is worthless if it is just a similar API that runs faster and on newer hardware.  You have to have useful and/or entertaining software for it.

This is why some of us want the backward compatibility to be kept and improved upon.  We want the ability to run some of that 78,000 software titles currently on Aminet, as well as the commercial Amiga software on which we have spent good money, to run on our new Amigas until more new PPC Amiga software can be written.

Sort of goes hand-in-hand with the idea that many of us want to see AOS4.x and MOS2.x ported to all the used PPC Macs out there as a short term solution to the hardware shortage until newer Amiga hardware can be invented and produced in mass quantities (a few thousand anyway). Yes, I know that the Efika is available right now, but for some of us, it is just not fast enough, or have all the features we would want in a new Amiga computer.  That being said, if I had the extra cash, I would very likely go buy one and pay the MOS2.x team their price for the latest version of their OS.

Just because we want these less than ideal, short term fixes, it does not mean that we do not want the longer term, better solutions to happen.  You might argue that if time is spent completing the short term projects that it will take away time for the long term projects.  That is true, but if the Amiga community is forced to wait another 4 to 6 years for the long term projects to be completed, there won't be hardly any of us left to care.  Many already say that there are not enough that care right now, and they may be right.

[amigadave]

warpdesign wrote:

You have to have useful and/or entertaining software for it

By developing something real "new", we could have way more "fun" than running 10 years old apps... Look at MacOSX: who's running OS9 apps today (and I believe there are a lot more than 78 000 apps for pre-OSX...)

OSX added a lot more...

Yes, it will take time. But the sooner we start, the sooner we'll have fun again... And the sooner we'll get rid of this old, old, old API, which was designed for old hardware, without portability in mind,...

Comparing anything Amiga to OSX is like comparing the Model T Ford to today's Shelby Mustang GT.  They have almost nothing in common other than they both roll on wheels and carry people.

Yes, there are still many old time Mac users that are running OS9 apps on their new OSX machines and Apple saw the value of building in that compatibility to make the transition from the old to the new.  What do you think would have happened to Apple's already small market share if they had not had any backward compatibility?  New sales of the OSX Macs probably would have been half or less of what they have been.

Go ahead and follow the same path that OS4 and AmigaInc. have already been down and see how successful you will be.  I can just about guarantee it will be about half of what it could be if backward compatibility had been available to your potential buyers.

On the other hand if all you are thinking of developing is a hobby OS and hardware for a few hardcore coders that don't mind the lack of software or are satisfied in dual booting into Linux to have something to run on their new OS and hardware, that is fine (for the few of you).

All I am trying to say is that backward compatibility is better for a transition to anything new.  Then after established with hundreds of new software applications and entertainment provided, then drop the old 80's and 90's compatibility.