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Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« on: June 29, 2004, 12:32:27 AM »
OS4 has workarounds for the Articia bugs. Whether or not they give full performance is yet to be seen. MicroA1 also has Articia. Linux doesn't have these workarounds, which is why UDMA on A1/Linux doesn't work properly.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2004, 04:01:48 PM »
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KimmoK wrote:
Buying amigaone you would support AmigaOS platform.


How?

The AmigaOS platform is now the users: UAE, Amithlon, MorphOS, OS4, original Amiga, AROS. How is buying an AmigaONE going to support anything? The hardware is owned by Eyetech and Mai, the software by Hyperion and "KMOS"*, the label by the now-for-all-intents-and-purposes defunct AInc. I really don't see how buying an A1 supports the 'Amiga platform' any more than buying a Pegasos or a copy of Amiga Forever, or downloading AROS.

* No proof that KMOS is an actual company yet, and likewise no proof that they are not just a cynical Amiga Inc. investor trick. Supporting them could be the same as supporting Amiga Inc - DAMAGING the Amiga platform.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2004, 10:01:24 PM »
Mike, it's not a pointless statistic. The point was to show that Articia UDMA IDE bus performance is adversely effected by fixes to preserve data integrity, regardless of drivers. Piru just proved that point. There is no other issue worth discussing here.

And if you don't think a ceiling of 40 MB/s for *total* IDE transfer is a problem, well, try it one day.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2004, 11:37:20 PM »
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Mikeymike wrote:
I'm not sure he has proven that point, if I'm right about the Peg1 being UDMA33 and the Peg2 being UDMA100, then the last stats he posted co-incide perfectly with my expectations for any comparison of a UDMA33 and UDM100 motherboard.


Pegasos-1 is ATA100 enabled, same as the Pegasos 2. Both use UDMA Mode 5. The throttling of the IDE bus is not caused by a lower transfer mode.

The Marvell northbridge is the only real difference between Pegasos 1 and 2. That's what makes comparisons viable.

Something is fishy with Articia, and PPC *ix kernel experts don't like the smell of it either. In fact, to quote WrongPlanet's unique turn of phrase, anyone who's adopted Articia has dropped it like a snowball they found a dog turd in.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2004, 12:43:18 PM »
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Mikeymike wrote:
Considering that the situation is by no means concluded or resolved, how you can possibly say that with any level of seriousness is beyond me.


Well, whether or not Genesi told the truth several blunt facts do exist and can't be mistaken. Firstly, Genesi retooled their whole production line and set themselves back maybe a whole year and presumably lost rather a large amount of money to get rid of Articia. So they were pretty sure there was something wrong with it, hype or not. Certainly it was horribly useless for what Genesi were marketing Pegasos as - a multiple OS board.

Secondly, the AmigaONE market base is flattering itself to think that Genesi would try to lie or underprice their boards to undercut A1 sales. Even if every single A1 owner, potential or present, had bought a Pegasos, there would probably only be about 1500 more sales - 2500 looking at it VERY optimistically. That's just not worth the expense. Pegasos may compete with A1 in the mind of users, but in a business sense it's in a whole different league. Why would Man United try to smear Layton Orient? :-P MorphOS is a toy OS in the world of computing and Genesi know that as well as anyone. Genesi's ambition is far bigger than MOS. As the slogan goes, MOS is a free gift. Smearing a tiny outfit like the A1 for the sake of a tiny OS like MOS is a total waste of effort.

Yet, it has happened, but not out of good business sense. If Genesi have clashed with Hyperion and Eyetech in the past, it's certainly more a clash of egos and unfinished vendettas. There are people behind MOS/OS4/Genesi/AInc who really don't like each other.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2004, 04:14:37 PM »
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Mikeymike wrote:
I just noticed your "why would Man U smear Leyton Orient" comment... Amiga Inc and Genesi are both small startups (and both in my view look like they're struggling to survive). Your comparison is way off on either yardstick I can think of, visibility, success...


My allagory loses its meaing if I use teams from the 4th division and the Vauxhall conference you never heard of. :-P
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 09:30:01 AM »
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KimmoK wrote:
"Even if every single A1 owner, potential or present, had bought a Pegasos, there would probably only be about 1500 more sales"

A lot of people chose Pegasos pecause it's cheaper than A1. (I could giv a lot of names)


And? This is how market economics works. The A1 loses out to a better deal, just as the Pegasos usually loses out to an even better one - a PC. The A1 is ridiculously priced and has lost out on many developers and users.

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If pegasos prices some miraculously way cover the cost of niche (about 1000 units per board) HW R&D and production, how is the MOS R&D costs covered?


Who says they are?

If we take it in man-hours payment for code, MOS is not being paid for. But then, the funds from selling A1 won't pay Hyperion's wages either. Both systems are developed part time by the coders with real jobs to bring income.

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"How is buying an AmigaONE going to support anything?"

According to AlanRedhouse. AOS4 licence is being paid to AOS4 developers for every sold AmigaOne.

"I really don't see how buying an A1 supports the 'Amiga platform'"


I'm sorry, but I don't consider supporting Eyetech or Hyperion supporting the Amiga platform any more than it would Elbox and Titan or Genesi and bPlan. They're just companies. Hyperion got the permissing to use this miraculous name, but the OS is becoming very unlike OS3 in the way its being designed and the A1 is just a Teron. I'm afraid to me supporting it alone is only supporting the marginilisation of the amiga platform - and marginalised in its own niche!

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Buying Pegasos supports the competition of AOS4 and funds the court actions of Genesi trying to get the hold of AOS4. (in the end Genesi would have no reason to let AOS4 live to help the sale of competing HW)


Well, even if it was, so? You'd rather have shadow companies owning this OS? KMOS the mysterious don't-know-anyone-except-GarryHaretheCEO could-be-a-IP-laundering tool?

No... I'd rather have a company that can actually deliver hardware, who I know works for it, and I can speak to anyone on its ranks. KMOS are not that. KMOS, for all I can see, have all the flaws of Amiga Inc, and I will never support such a company on faith ever again. They sell stuff with good prices, I buy it. Else the Amiga name isn't going to dazzle me into buying substanard stuff.

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"or downloading AROS."

That is not supporting AOS.


It's supporting the Amiga platform. The potential amount of software from AROS could be staggering, and easily ported to any other AmigaOS flavour - yes, even OS4. If AROS users want to call it AOS, who's to stop them? Amiga Inc?

Seeing the difference from supporting the platform proper and just from supporting name-leeching companies is the first step in actually being able to really support it.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2004, 11:04:23 AM »
@gadgetmaster

No, it's called OS4 because the people behind it hated bPlan and weren't content to see MorphOS become the only Amigalike system being marketed, and so put up with AInc's horrible licencing to make an OS which is now almost totally superfluous.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaOne DMA Problem
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2004, 11:20:40 AM »
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Hyperion made a deal to continue AmigaOS development.
AmigaOS4 is based on AmigaOS code.


A deal with Amiga Inc, a proven con outfit. I see no connection with the real AmigaOS here.

And OS4 is not based on AmigaOS code, that's just a stupid claim from years back. It's engineered from the ground up using autodocs to be OS3 compatible, just like MOS and AROS. That has become very clear from its greater compatibility to autodocs than to actual OS3, which breaks a lot of software. Eventually Hyperion will fix this I don't doubt, but it shows straight away that OS4 was not based on original, hardware dependent OS3 68k C/ASM code.

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It's more like OS3 than how MOS is, especially the design.


Nope. MOS is more like OS3 in every way. OS4 is rather incompatible, uses the MMU like crazy (Commodore NEVER used the MMU), and is furthermore incompatible in other conceptual ways (like renaming all the language catalog dirs in ENGLISH, breaking all old installers). OS4 has departed from OS3 in MANY ways. It's probably the most alien to the OS3 structure of all the current AOS clones.

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I rather have companies that can deliver hardware and a company that deliver AmigaOS.


That's a pointless argument, because if tomorrow Hyperion lost the right to call OS4 AmigaOS and Genesi got it, I'm damn sure most of the now-KMOS4 users wouldn't suddenly buy Pegasos just to run AmigaOS.

As for Eyetech...they don't deliver hardware. They simply rebadge it and resell it.

What is the actual name worth, except hype and marketing? What is it worth to the user? Consider that.

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To me KMOS does not have the flaws of Amiga Inc. But it neither has any merits either. It's pretty neutral. Perhaps the CEO seems too sane for Amiga market. (no, wait, I forgot the business card grazyness)


That's the whole point - what do you actually know about KMOS? Even less than you did about Amiga Inc, I'm pretty sure. How can you possibly trust them?

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They also say cow meat from UK is cheap. I do not buy it.


Irrelevant. It would be relevant of the Pegasos hardware were horribly buggy. It's not.

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No. KMOS has that option. They already acted when the threat against AOS became apparent in the thendic-Amiga court issue.


I'm willing to bet KMOS has just as little court power as Amiga Inc. I could be wrong, but they don't seem to be clamping down on small entrepreneurs using the Amiga OS4 name without royalties yet, do they?

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I think helping AOS4 in any way is the best way to help to keep AOS alive.
Other than that, supporting MOS (without supporting Genesi, if possible), AROS, Amiga SW/HW developers is far better thing to do than supporting Amiga.Inc.


Well, we differ in the first point. I have the genuine feeling OS4 was introduced just to spike bPlan's plans early on. I agree with the second point - supporting actual developers and trustworthy companies supports the Amiga. Sadly, the list of trustworthies is rather short.

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btw. "supporting name-leeching companies" made me build the following reminder of who might get money when one buys A1/AOS4:


Let me amend that a bit. Who gets money when you buy A1/OS4: Amiga Inc (licencing fees); Mai logic; Eyetech; Hyperion. None of which are particularly deserving.

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IMHO: it is better option for Amiga OS fan than the main alternative ( why support AOS imitator OS that is planned to be "something else" if the "original" is also there, why support "other than AOS HW platform" rather than the existing AOS HW platform etc. )


OS4 is an imitator OS too. :) Try to think of it as if no-one had the Amiga name. You have HyperionOS, bPlanOS, and OpenROS. Which is most 'Amiga'?