Demos using a GFX mode please !

[carls]

The RTG demos are on their way. Take a look at the releases from Mekka&Symposium 2002 and 2001.

Most of the RTG-enabled demos needs a PPC, however.

The reason for this, I guess, is that in many cases AGA is faster than for example a CV64 on a 68k system.

Take the game Doom, for example. Using FBlit, this is faster in Multiscan 320x240 on my 060 than in the same resolution on my CV64/3D!

Then again, demos are made to impress and show off. And it's more impressive to get 50FPS chunky 3D on AGA than it is on a BVision PPC or a Voodoo3!

If you're looking for demos, scene.org is the place to start. It's the Aminet of the demo scene :-)

PS.
I'm not a coder so correct me if I'm wrong ;-)

[carls]

@darkcoder

I totally agree!
Coding is as much a form of art as painting or composing!

[carls]

@DarkCoder
The Amiga scene won't die.
Just because it's an A1200 doesn't mean it's not an Amiga!
Look at the C64 scene: it's still alive!

There are so many different platforms to make demos on nowadays that it's getting more and more common to watch demos as recorded DivX films instead of the actual executable (there is a dreamcast scene, PS2 scene, PSX scene etc.)

The Linux scene is also growing and the AOne is already out there running Linux!

There will most likely be an OS4 demo scene, too. If you're just into optimizing code, how about optimizing it for the 68K emulator? :-)

[carls]

@MagicSN

First: Correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as you write directly to the graphic card's memory I don't think it could be classified as RTG?
RTG implies some kinde of HAL or it wouldn't be retargetable...

I get your point, but here's how I see it:

There is a big difference between the Amiga and the PC demo scene.

At work, I've got a PIII 667MHz with 256MB RAM and a 32MB 3D graphics card (from Matrox I believe), and an AC97 soundcard. I'm running Win2K with the latest versions of DirectX etc.

Still, many of the demos I download won't work for a number of reasons. Sometimes there's no sound. Sometimes the graphics are distorted. Sometimes it is just plain SLOW although the effect shown on the screen is similar to one that runs smoothly in Amiga demos on my 060! And these are demos that has won compos on big parties so they must have been working on at least the compo machine.

There's also comments in the file_id.diz (or whatever textfile is included): "Will only have fog on graphics card so-and-so", "Sound will be jerky on slower computers". SLOW? My 667MHz PIII is SLOW?

If you download a compo-winning AGA+060 demo, you know that it will look the same on all Amigas. The sound will be correctly synced with the effects, it will keep a decent framerate, etc.

I downloaded some RTG demos from M&S last year and they were so slow on my CV64/3D I could barely watch them.

Custom hardware is what built the demo scene and I can fully understand why many coders stick to AGA.

I am not impressed by a demo doing 100FPS on an NVidia card. If I want to be impressed, I watch Hotstyle Takeover or The Castle (Loonies/Amiga) or Mathematica (Can't remember the group/C64).

Any decent graphician and musician can create the right audiovisual feeling in a demo, but not every coder can make it look as intended using 2MB graphics memory and a 50MHz 060.

Oh well, maybe I'm just a crazy "oldschool" guy :-)

[carls]

@MagicSN

First an example:
Q[r]COV - intro contribution to Flag2001 by Industry and Pas Maters. This runs on both AGA and CGX with some quite simple chunky effects.

I have an A1200/060 50MHz with a Z-IV busboard and a CV64/3D, and one A1200 with AGA and an 030 28MHz. This intro operates best on 060 using AGA, while 060+CGX is not remarkably faster than on the 030+AGA. It runs in 8-bit lowres on all three combinations. Oddly, all games written for both CGX and AGA works like this too, while for example ImageFX, Voyager and the Workbench itself is amazingly fast on the graphics card - not to mention TVPaint!

Now, the Z-IV busboard does not have the same bandwidth as true Zorro-3 slots but at least it should be a LITTLE bit faster than AGA?

And I didn't say I don't like people coding for graphics cards I just said I can understand them - I wouldn't want to develop a demo on my graphics card if it was slower than on AGA! I'm guessing a lot of demo coders have a HW setup similar to mine.

A lot of the old PC DOS-demos work just fine (Second Reality is a beauty!) and I guess these are using a technique similar to the one you describe (using the graphics card as a chunky buffer) since they had to work on a lot of different cards.

As for hardware availability, AGA is available to any A1200 or A4000 owner by hooking it up to a TV set - no need for a 15kHz monitor.

But on the A1 the situation will have to change. I'm certain that wonderful demos will be produced for it (otherwise I'll be very sad :-(), and they will _have_ to use RTG.

Anyways, I don't think me ranting will change the demo scene :-) But I'm sure of one thing: The A1 needs something similar to AMOS or Blitz Basic if any "newbie" coders are going to get interested in it. It will also need a good 2D pixelpainter and some nice tracker- sample- and MP3-software if it's going to attract a full demo group.

[carls]

First of all: YES, QrCov IS faster on AGA than on CV3D on my machine. As is Doom and Heretic. Again: C2P in games & demos is faster than native chunky on my computer (maybe I'm doing something wrong with CyberGraphX?). I'm sure this isn't a problem on for example the BVision.

I can enjoy a good demo on any platform, no matter how fast the CPU is, and I sure understand that creating good code isn't easy no matter how fast your hardware is. It just seems to me like the faster the hardware gets, the lazier the coder gets (hence the bad operation of many PC demos).

I also get more impressed by a good-looking picture if it's pixeled in 256 colours using for example PPaint, than by a similar-looking 24-bit picture made in Photoshop with a Wacom board, where you get all your antialiasing, shading etc. for free.

To put it short: I like nerdy show-offs :-)

And the Amiga scene is moving towards RTG. A lot of new demos even multi-task correctly.

[carls]

If it all just comes down to the 15kHz output I don't understand the big deal.

Almost everyone who owns a computer also owns a TV. Just hook your TV up to the Amiga output (you can use the Composite out and a normal RCA cable). If you don't have a TV, you can get a used 14" colour TV for almost no money at all.

You don't need an expensive multiscan monitor to watch demos!

I used an old 1084 with the composite out while having my 17" hooked up to the RGB out. Then I moved it to the RGB out when I got my CV64.

[carls]

Maybe one should see it like this:
The Amiga scene is splitting into two parts.
The "oldschool" or "retro" part which still uses AGA and 68k and the "newschool" part which codes for CGX and PPC.

The CGX and PPC people would probably be happy to move on to the A1 or the Pegasos but these demos still wouldn't work on WinUAE because they require a PPC.

The "retro" sceners will probably stick to their old Amiga for scene activities much like you see Atari or C64 people doing today. They bring their old computer to the demo parties but they also use an up-to-date PC for surfing the web etc.

The "retro" demos will also run on any good emulator if you have a fast CPU and you can also view them as DivXs or whatever.

Here's a good starting point for everyone with an emulator who won't run your favourite demo:
http://omr.planet-d.net/amidemos/ - they have LOTS of demo DivXs and MPEGs.

Viewing tip: Cybercinematastic by Loonies

[carls]

@Crumb
I think it was Spaceballs who did a very nice A500 prod not long ago, called "Hideous mutant freaks". Maybe that could be of interest? It's got kind of a "newschool" design but it's certainly coded for an oldschool machine :-)

[carls]

Ah yes, the coldfire project!
Does anyone know how that is coming along?
I'd love to get a CF card for my A1200!

[carls]

@Crumb
Thanks for the info on the CF project!

[carls]

@lempkee

People have been saying that the scene is going to die "real soon now" ever since I first heard about the scene back in 1992. The scene is not dead and it's not going to die! New coders and artists arrive to the scene every year. Amiga demos still win in a lot of compos, there are even parties dedicated only to the C64/Amiga/Atari scene.

Just because there's a lot of Quake players at the bigger parties doesn't mean there's no demo scene!

If you're no longer impressed by demos, then I feel truly sorry for you but the only thing you really can do to change this is to sit down and produce something impressive yourself! THAT is what the scene is about. This is a discussion that has been going on for as long as I can remember.

As far as I'm concerned, the scene isn't dead as long as someone is out there and works hard to put pixels on my screen.

[carls]

@lempkee

First of all, you were sounding depressed about the state of the scene so I tried to cheer you up :-) I guess it came out the wrong way...

I haven't been to very many parties (maybe nine or ten), but I'd have to say that the ones I've been to were very nice. I've only been to smaller ones (maybe 200 attendants at the biggest one so far) and I've never been to a party without a computer. Not that I get to use it very much because, like you say, in the latest years it has mostly been about socializing and having a good time.

Finishing a production at a party is never fun, except maybe for a surprise compo (but that is a totally different thing IMHO).

I always try to have my contributions ready before I go to a party!

A good party to me, well, it's hard to describe but it's got to have that certain feeling of friendship and community, that all the visitors belong together because they're a part of something bigger, in this case the whole scene "thing".

I couldn't say that I would feel at home at one of the parties with 2000+ attendants, at least I don't think so (but then again I've never tried it .

I'm going to a party in my home town in a couple of days, and this is a party I love. Just like you say about M&S there is total silence during all the compos. There are always a few gamers attending the party but this year they will be forced to turn their screens off during the compos ;-)

Just like you I've never understood how people can sit in front of their computers leeching, not talking to anyone - and paying for it - when they do the same thing at home all the time. I can appreciate the fun in playing Quake but I'd rather do it for free in a friend's livingroom during a weekend.

If I had to pick a favourite party I'd have choose one where I was one of the organizers :-)
It was held back in 1996, superb feeling.