News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License

[Chucky]

And there are ONE more issue here  and it is an important one:

You rely on ONE person..  as trhe core is closed..

if a bus runs over gunnar or so.   you are in a situation where you are screwed...


and at work being a consultant:  NEVER EVER put your stuff into something being dependent of one person.

[Chucky]

@Chucky

It sounds like you dont know how to set it up and/or use it.... But this is not a Vampire help thread.

if it was COMPATIBLE.. it should run!.. I solved it.  but it did not run directlty!  I needed to do changes.. so  NOT COMPATIBLE!  this system works on any machine with ANY motorola cpu.
(ok 3.9 boots but will have issues on 68000 and 68010 due to some libs are 020+)

[Chucky]

HOW can you get this as OFF TOPIC!???

ok I have disagreements with the 080.. but OFF TOPIC??   HOW is it off topic?  please explain?

and yes.. my A3660 project is fully open. yes..  "%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ty" card..  absolutley.. but still totaslly open..  just download the files. do the pcb.. do whatever you like with it

[Chucky]

hehe did not like the Sh.. word..

but I get it.  typical Vampire thing:  if someone say somethingh that you doesn't approve with: MAKE IT SILENT!

actually that scares me..   that is a horrible way of taking input..    that looks like dicatorship..  scary.. REALLY scary..

how to even rely on that?  put your design on that?  I would not dare.. sorry..that is absolutley not how to do it..     you will not get a good product if yo only have "yes-sayers"

[Chucky]

I know my A3660 project is a bad card.  really bad..  but it is my part of giving to the community..   it sure needs improvements for sure.

but I WANT comments..  I know what is bad and what is good.  thing is..  if you want  improvements and can do it youself:  feel free (but do NOT close!)


and if you want people to use your techs:  make no-sayers silent but shuttingh them down is scary..   it is wrong..     this means:  if I want to use your core. but find an issue..  what support will I get?  I might get shutdown?  maybe after putting long time of effort.. maybe even lots of money doing prototypes etc?

dangerous..  please show that this is wrong.  take the input.  do not shut it down..

[Chucky]

the input.  well it is a STATIC product.  we all know how i works.. it have worked for 20+ years for us..  we have software that runs on it..  and it is the last of the CPUs on the Amiga.   the cpu where MY heart stands at: the demoscene (and well the 68000 of even more retro)..

and for me it is the goal..  it is what I want and need.   and what the most of my fellow amiga-demosceners want..  and EXACT that product..
no ammx, no 64 bit, no hyperthreading...   but yes it IS right  sourcing the 060s is getting harder.  we NEED a fpga replacement.   but sorry. many does not need quake and doom or videos.  we need a fpga replacement that still runs like our beloved 060.

and this is what I try to tell you: I am not alone with this..

the 080 is a core under development..  currentlty for us without any fpu and without any usable MMU.. so if you silent no-sayers that want stuff..  HOW would I trust the development?  WHY put in money in developing it if I might get silent what I have an opinion?       I might end in an unfinished product as I got shutdown maybe? maybe spending lots of money in prototyping?

this is a big tip for you: if you seek partners (as thsi thread actually IS about) do not shut down people with opinions or ideas..  that is bad marketing.

[Chucky]

Many companies I work with have put their production into systems where only one or 2 persons know about the system:   cancer. and BAM!  no support.. no nothing..   just a dead product..

thats the hard fact of life..   noone wants it.. but it can happen.  and it have impact.

[Chucky]

well  I still see people having that same issues that I had.  so those incompabilities is not solved yet.   and I constantly hear that it is "MORE COMPATIBLE" when it doesn't behave like any 68k.  so how can it be more compatible?

for me Compatible = Behaves like THAT product..  

Anyway. I will someday finish my blog-post of this..

Amnyway. you are right. 060 cards is getting insanly expensive.. and I am doing whatever I can to solve that.  but the thing is. the vampirecards are soon approaching that very same pricetag...  yes  professional assembly costs way more than doing it by hand (damn I am impressed how Majsta and kipper had the energy doing it!)    but I got the feeling they soon get to that EXACT pricetag.  except that the difference is: vampire and 080 does not depend on old hard-to-get (read: expensive) technlogy..

Anyway my point is still:  IF they want people to use their core.  DO listen to more people.  I see often in different forums (here in Sweden and IRC etc etc) that people want FPU and MMU or they are not interested.

but when people say that. they take it personal like if you call them stupid..  WE DO NOT!  damn the Vampire and 080 is actually damn awesome..  too sad that there are many wanting "just" the old toaster, but we want it preserved as tech fail, cpus are getting harder to get etc.  no MMU as a good example is giving coders the finger.  and all new stuff they want to impleent means: new software needed.  do NOT give the coders the finger.  you need them.   listen to input.  do not block the people with requests...  I am very often to demoparties etc. I talk to coders etc  and I still have to fine ONE democoder remotly interested in doing something.  as it breaks the bonderys of why they even care about the amiga.    they  just stopped even caring about comenting it as if you do.  things like this thread happens.

the GESTURE of the core "for free" is nice.  very nice.  but in this thread (and others I have read about this subject)  you get an impression that this is more or less one-man-mission of how to do it and everyone else is wrong nd they just want to silence anyone with an opinion.

At a1k I notice comments about FPU and MMU.  there IS demand.  and so far we users.. do NOT have FPU  and Gunnar really showed that he is NOT interested in implementing a MMU (or.-. MPU!) compatible to older software as his is SOO much better.  and it might be right..  still people asks for it. WANTING to do new software.  still "no.  my stuff is much better"

[Chucky]

ANYWAY!  I will stop here..

I will do my part.   I got mail etc asking if I am interested of this deal for my 3660 project and.  well   (tipping me of it.. )  and.  NO.

if you can solder: you can do a 060 for your bigbox Amiga for aprox 190eur. not the fastest.  actuallyt the slowest..   but it works-  and stuff is happening.

I know that I need to add memory (and a ROM disabling that damn FPU at boot), remove old components and replace with CLPD etc.   and I am NOT negative as ths "competes" with the 3660.  actually I would glad if I just could sit down and relax if someone else did it, but thinking like that: nothing happens.

This thread just proved what I suspected. but I do wish them good luck.

[Chucky]

Speaking as a demosceener:

WHY do we do demos on our amigas?  well we love to show off what we can do with the limits. you know. poor chipmembus, bitmapmode etc etc.

we love to show off what we can do theree.  if suddnely the chipmem is a 100+MHz bus etc.  nah.   then I can use a PC and do shadercoding.  there is no  more "fun" into that.

same with the CPU..   a demoplatform is 2 different machines todaty mainly:

1. OCS machine, meaning 7MHz 68000 with 512k chip and 512k fakefast (not even fastmem)
2. AGA machine (14MHz chipmem, 32bit) 2MB Chip, and 50MHz 68060 with FPU.  50MHz  and aprox 64MB of RAM.

so it must deliver a exact version of ANY of this to be accepted.   more speed can be fun.  but the FPU must perform exactly MMU is more used to figure out bugs when developing utils.. not so much for demos.


but.  vampire and 080 needs utils to be used.  so that's why the MMU is important for the very few doing the actual coding.

so in short:  demoscerns WANT their restrictions, we do not care about AMMX and stuff..

for utils using all the new stuff to get new software (like browswers)  programmers needs debuggingtools they are used to have.

[Chucky]

well yes. mainly it is ocs or expanded A1200. long time since I saw anything "stock A1200" (too sad.. I like that platform)

but no.  Vampire 080 will not be a demosceneplatform when I talk to democoders:  they are simply not interested.. as then they could do shaders on a PC instead.. there is no sport in it. and it is what it is all about: it must be HARD to do.

there might be SOME 080 demo. as there was some PPC ones. but all will be as wild-entrys I guess.

actually  more and more are dumping the 060 awell.  it seems that OCS is the platform they more aim for.  they want TIGHTER limits.

[Chucky]

Hi Guys... regarding OS 3.9 not working with Vampire... or not being compatible... Installing OS3.9 was the first thing I installed on Vampire and I got it working, and I am by no means an expert.

try that will all boingbags etc...
my template works on ALL amigas  68000 (ok except the few libraries requiring 020.. but it BOOTS if you have enough memory)  to 68060   EC or LC or RC.   it works.   and the 3.9 libs that are 020 (2 I think?) is the only CPU optimised software in this template.. (I have then anotyher dir to install cpu dependent versions if wanted...

but this template does NOT work on vampires..

[Chucky]

noone producing?? I see a lot of stuff happning with hardware..

[Chucky]

But sorry. NO  I guess the 080 will be as standard as the PPC..

some few datatypes etc.  some small programs. and MAYBE a few demos.  but that's it

[Chucky]

You are doing it again. I take the freedom to correct your statement: your template does not work on your Vampire having an outdated core.

If I sell a machine. I prep it with that card sp the buyer can poweron and use..  I have got many reports telling "ohjh I have issues after I use my vampire"  so even new cores fails.

might not fail as much. but still fail.

[Chucky]

Oh sorry i must have misunderstood chucky.
From his post about a few datatypes and smal programs i thought he was talking about PowerUP or WarpOS on classic AmigaOS.. (Not MorphOS or AmigaOS 4.x)

And with that point of view i cant understand how it compares. My PPC did stay mostly unused on OS3.9 but my Vampire is used for everything and all my 68k programs.

But from your point of view yes they are the same only the Vampire is quicker on 68k code...even faster than native PPC code in many cases

that is my point.. the bells and whistles of the 080 will be unused as the PPC was unused on most CSPPCs/BPPCs. (I just mine for datatypes and archivers..  not that much)  so the 080 addons as they hype so much will never really be noticed..  if even used.   as you need coders actually DOING the software...