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Offline Dandy

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« on: January 13, 2007, 10:42:50 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
That's the rub. Any rechargeable system that ultimately requires recharging from a mains supply will result in increased load on electricity supplies and subsequent increases in emissions from there.

Not necessarily.

Back in 1971 (when I was 14) our teacher performed an experiment about the electrolysis of water in a chemistry lesson that produced detonating gas. Finally he ignited the gas and it blew the test tube into pieces with a loud bang.

Our teacher then said thet the reaction of hydrogen and oxyde is much more fierce, produces much more energie than the reaction of e.g. petrol and air and produces zero air pollution, as the result of this reaction is steam.

At the very same moment my finger went up and I asked my teacher:
"So why do all the cars still use petrol or diesel?"

His answer was:
"If this was possible they would have done so long before!"

Later - in the course of my training as a machinist at KHD (Magirus Deutz) - I asked the same question to my foreman at KHD's engine research centre.
He answered basically the same as my teacher before, but he became more precise:
"If hydrogen and oxygen react, it results in a very high firing temperature, which would make the intake- and exhaust-valves melt."

These answers did not satify me and so I decided to make an experiment on my own.
My hobby was flying RC model aircrafts at that time and from that I had a spare 0.33 cm^3 petrol model engine.
With my limited resources I "electrolysed" me some cm^3 of detonating gas (took me two weeks with a 12V transformer and an old aquarium), slightly modified the model engine by taking off its tank and carburetteur and supplying the detonating gas instead of petrol.

Then I started the engine and - woooohooo! - it ran!
It ran for about 30 seconds until the detonating gas was empty.
Later I re-mounted tank and carburetteur and it ran flawlessly with petrol again.

So I had my proof that it worked.

Later - while studiyng engineering - I learned about constructive measures to avoid the melting of metal at such temperatures. After all the engines of the Space Shuttle (which burn hydrogen and oxygen as well) don't melt either...

But from my own experiment I knew how time-consuming the production of hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis of water  would be - and so started to look for a more efficient way to do this. After some years of research I had an idea how I could produce H & O much faster and at an lower energie footprint - I still have to prove with an experiment that it works.

But nevertheless electricity is still reqired for this process. And if we're talking about operating all combustion engines worldwide with H&O, then we're talking about a fair amount of electricity that's needed for the H&O production.

Then a next idea began to shape out.
If I want to reduce the emissions of the cars to save the environment by using H&O, then we can't use "dirty" electricity for that.
I thought about the way it is now:
We drill holes into the earth and pump up what's left of the sunshine from some million years ago (oil, result from ancient forests) and burn this in order to be mobile, while at the same time the sun still sends us a comparable amount of energy like millions of years ago.

So today we end up with the energy of the daily sunshine PLUS the energy of the daily sunshine from some million years ago that made the ancient forests grow from which the oil stems we burn when we drive by car, sail by ship or fly by plane.

So I thought that if we today "dig out the sunshine of the past" to be mobile and want to change that, we must reduce the daily sunshine that hits the ground here on this planet by exactly that amount we are burning "sunshine of the past" to be mobile.

When thinking about possible solutions, a sunshade sprang to my mind.

What, if we built a huge solar cell platform in the orbit that works as an jalousie, collects the electricity of all solar cells, transfoms it to rays and sends it down to earth wireless?
(I recently read about an technique for wireless energy transmission and it works already on distances up to 30km - I'm confident that with goal-oriented research 300km and more are no problem at all)

If the orbit is calculated accordingly, so that this platform can throw a big enough shadow on desert areas, I would expect low (air) pressure in this areas as a consequence.
As normally rain comes with low pressure, such an desert area might start to grow green again, which would improve our air quality and climate significantly.

That's why I said "Not necessarily" in the beginning...

But I'm afraid such a project is far too big for one nation - and if I look at the current political conditions worldwide I have not much hope that this could be realized anytime soon.
(Sorry for my long posting)
All the best,

Dandy

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2007, 09:10:34 PM »
Quote

PMC wrote:

...
Ford?  Owns Volvo, who are again sponsoring biofuel research.  Also patented a radiator grille which converts Ozone (O3) to Oxygen (O2).  Ozone is great in the Stratosphere, but at sea level it is often a major cause of childhood asthma and is a by product of heavy industry.  Better known as "smog" in LA.  
...



Ford & Fuel Cell

Ford & Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2007, 07:53:02 AM »
Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:

Modern petrochemical companies and their partners (the major car companies) have no idea what environmental responsibility is.

As long as they can pay dividends to their share holders and the government of their country is prosperous then they will continue to advertise 'new research' and ultimately buy all the patents and bury them.



As I work for Ford, I can assure you that Ford's environmental efforts are real.

Maybe Ford could do more - but fact is that those things they do are real. No bought and buried patents here...

Personally I already drove both at our research centre in Aachen (Germany): the hydrogene internal combustion engine vehicle as well as the fuel cell vehicle.

Both actually exist and work fine. Now it's up to the politicians to create an an legal environment where this new technique can prosper...

Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:

...
The solution is to think different, rebel against the defacto and discover your own alternative fuel.
...



Fully agreed - as long as it is not just "alternative", but really releases the environment...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 01:19:21 PM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:

Quote

Dandy wrote:

[...]
Both actually exist and work fine. Now it's up to the politicians to create an an legal environment where this new technique can prosper...



The hydrogen economy is a flawed economy.



Not sure why you think that.

Quote

falemagn wrote:

To extract hydrogen you need energy, typically electricity, but if you've got electricity in the first place then you can use it directly.



Of course.
Did you reads my first postimg in this thread on page 3, Posted on: 2007/1/13 11:42 ?
There I described my idea/concept to satisfy the needs of energy.

Of course you can use the electricity directly, wherever it makes sense!

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Battery technology has improved a lot and continues to do so.



...but involves a lot of substances hazardous to health and environment, once released - maybe by an crash.

Furthermore current batteries (which actually are accumulators) mean a lot of additional weight, which results in less payload or less operating range.

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Moreover, hydrogen is quite a dangerous gas, it needs to be stored properly, transported properly, and needs very costly infrastructures.



While it`s not so dangerous as you may think, you are of course right - "it needs to be stored properly, transported properly, and needs very costly infrastructures".

But this is valid for all other fuels as well, especially, if you include the costs for damages to the environment.

If hydrogene gas leaks out of a tank, it immediately rises rises up to the sky, as hydrogene is the lightest element.

So in case of an accident where a hydrogene tank is penetrated, the "dangerous fuel" immediately rises up in the air (in contrary to a case where a gasoline tank is penetrated) where it either peacefully burns or is diluted until the concentration is beyond fammability.

If on the other hand a cars gasoline tank gets penetrated by an accident, the gasoline pours down on the ground and possibly flows underneath the car, where the injured passengers are locked in...
 :flame:  :angel:

Quote

falemagn wrote:

You don't want an hydrogen car to pick fire.



You don`t want any car to pick fire, do you?

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Why an hydrogen economy doesn't make sense.



I still have to read this link...
All the best,

Dandy

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2007, 01:46:16 PM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:

...

Why an hydrogen economy doesn't make sense.



Hmmmmmmm - yes, hydrogene is a wasteful technologie, compared to direct use of electricity.

But you can`t use electricity directly all the time:
Aeroplanes?
Cars?
For both (currently) the power/weight ratio when powered with hydrogene is better compared to battery powered.

But what if you generated the electricity needed for hydrogene production (and not only for that - I`d say electricity in general) in the orbit and reduced the amount of sunlight reaching the earths surface by exactly the equivalent to the amount of electricity you are generating?

Up in the orbit the sun shines 24 hours per day - for free!

This might help to put the "wasteful" of the hydrogene technologie into perspective...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 02:10:19 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:

Quote


If hydrogene gas leaks out of a tank, it immediately rises rises up to the sky, as hydrogene is the lightest element.



That never helped the Hindenburg. Air/Hydrogen mixtures are explosively combustible over a very wide range of partial pressure and temperature. You rupture a pressurised / liquidised source of hydrogen in any normal atmospheric conditions and very little energy is required to ignite it.



Yes - but please take into account the huge amount of hydrogene that burned there - and nevertheless so many passengers survived - despite the huge fireball above them...

Imagine the the significantly smaller amount of hydrogene in a H-powered car - and you will easily recognize that a comparison with the Hindenburg is not appropriate.

Have you never noticed hydrgene transporters on the highway?

There had been an accident with one of them nere nearby Cologne on the highway ring - one of the huge cylinders was penetrated.
The gas ignited and a flame of perhaps 10m rose into the sky, while the cylinder itself was freezing by the expanding gas inside.

Was no hard job for the fire brigades, as the local newspapers reported...

If transporting/storing hydrogene was as dangerous as you imply, there should have been a catastrophe.

Although hydrogene becomes really dangerous when mixed with pure oxygene (-> space shuttle Challenger)...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2007, 11:54:47 AM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:

Quote

Dandy wrote:

Of course you can use the electricity directly, wherever it makes sense!


It makes sense anywhere except, perhaps, in some quite exceptional situations. For sure it makes sense in cars!



Well, my concept offers the possibility to generate all worldwide needed electricity outside the earths atmosphere in the orbit and to balance the the enegy level in the atmosphere.

I'd say use this electricity directly whereever it makes sense - and use it to generate hydrogene and oxygene for those application areas, where using electricity directly does make little sense (e.g. in aeroplanes).

Of course it already makes sense to use electricity directly in cars. We're doing this as well here at Ford.
But the problem is that people hesitate to make up their minds for electric cars with one of their strongest arguments being that they're missing the (combustion) engines sound.

So what can we do against this subjective perception?
There already have been ideas to use the car's HiFi equipment to generate (sythesise) the sound they're used to in dependance to the actual manner of driving...

If there wasn't the sound problem, I could as well think of an weight and energy saving "hybrid" concept:
Remove the combustion engine, the gearbox and so on, and replace it with a small turbine (preferrably operated with hydrogene and oxygene) that drives an small generator.
The generator produces the needed electricity to run the four electric engines which are integrated into the wheels.

This would significantly reduce the mass of the vehicle in general and so reduce the reqired amount of fuel (no matter which). Such vehicles could be used for application areas where no electricity is available to recharge the accu/battery.

Hydrogene and oxygene operated turbines could replace the ones operated with kerosene in all sorts of aircrafts.

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Quote

Dandy wrote:

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Battery technology has improved a lot and continues to do so.



...but involves a lot of substances hazardous to health and environment, once released - maybe by an crash.



We're not in the times of lead-acid batteries anymore, these are the times of lithium ions batteries mixed with certain kind of nanomaterials that boost their performances and make them viable alternatives to fuel.

Have a look at AltairNano and A123, for instance.



Yeah, nice things  - and as I said, use them where it makes sense.
(Unfortunately it doesn't make sense everywhere...)

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Quote

Dandy wrote:

Furthermore current batteries (which actually are accumulators) mean a lot of additional weight, which results in less payload or less operating range.



Accumulator is a broader term than "battery". A rechargeable battery is an accumulator, but an accumulator isn't necessarily a battery.



Hmmmmm - in the German language the term "battery" means at least two (connected) galvanic cells. In the common language it is also wrongly used for single cells.

"Accumulator" in German means a rechargable battery (short: Akku).

I thought it would be similar in the english language - but obviously I was wrong...

Quote

falemagn wrote:

As for weight, what matters is power density, which measures how much energy can be stored in a unit of volume, and certain batteries have power density higher than standard fuel which makes them more viable than fuel. Add to that that electric motors are less complicated and much lighter than ICE's, and you get the right picture.

Here's some real world examples, cars you can buy right now: the Tesla Motors' sport car and the Phoenix Motors' SUT.

Head to http://www.autobloggreen.com/ to see what this is all about.



Yeah - you might want to add these as well:

electric Ford "Ranger"

"Think!" in Canada

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Quote

Dandy wrote:

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Moreover, hydrogen is quite a dangerous gas, it needs to be stored properly, transported properly, and needs very costly infrastructures.



While it`s not so dangerous as you may think, you are of course right - "it needs to be stored properly, transported properly, and needs very costly infrastructures".

But this is valid for all other fuels as well, especially, if you include the costs for damages to the environment.



It's not valid for electricity: we do have transport infrastructures for it already in place and battery technology has improved to a point where environmental concerns are just out of place: lithium isn't environmentally hazardous and it can be recycled.



Basically you're right - just that I (maybe as a result of being a native German speaker) I never thought of "electricity" when talking about "fuel" up to now.

In the German language "fuel" generally is liquid, best gaseous (fuel = Treibstoff = "driving stuff"; while e.g. "coal" = Kohle is a so called "Brennstoff", which means something along the lines of "firing stuff").

Furthermore we have enough wide, wide areas on this planet where no sign of electric infrastructure exists (yet). If you want to explore those areas with electric vehicles only, you might not be able to recharge your accus.


Quote

If hydrogene gas leaks out of a tank, it immediately rises rises up to the sky, as hydrogene is the lightest element.


Yes, and it might react with the oxygen in the air, explosively so, or go up to the higher atmosphere where it's likely to cause damages to the ozone layer.

Quote


The danger of explosions is only given, if you mix hydrogene with pure oxygene.
"Air" doesn't contain enough oxygene to create an "explosion".
Hydrogene (under normal conditions) just "burns" in air...

As to "damages to the ozone layer" - do you think there would be much left of the ozone layer to damage, given the amount of years it would take to realize an hydrogene economie?

I'm afraid we've to think of/to invent an arteficial replacrement for it anyway...

Quote

falemagn wrote:

Quote

Dandy wrote:

So in case of an accident where a hydrogene tank is penetrated, the "dangerous fuel" immediately rises up in the air (in contrary to a case where a gasoline tank is penetrated) where it either peacefully burns or is diluted until the concentration is beyond fammability.



You forget that to store hydrogen you need very high pressures, which means that if you manage to break an hydrogen tank you need to be prepared to some of the most disastrous explosions both for the flammability of the gas and the pressure it's stored at.

Regardless, there are economical reasons for which hydrogen just doesn't make sense for cars, as explained by the page I gave you a link to.



There are several different ways to store hydrogene:
1) as compressed gas (that's what you're referring to)
2) liquid at a very low temperature (still explosive->Challenger)
3) Solid-State Hydrogen Storage based on reversible metal hydrides (relatively safe, as far as I know)

As to "economical reasons" - haven't it been "economical reasons" combined with "human/consumer needs" that drove our environment into the mess it is currently in?

Shouldn't we start to base our thinking on "ecological reasons"?
 :-o
Just an idea...
All the best,

Dandy

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 12:25:48 PM »
Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:
Dandy: Do you realise your last post was 12 screens high...

:-D


Oooooops!
No, I didn't realise - sorry for the long posting.
Things like this can happen when I'm really hooked...

Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:

Also, what happens to a standard diesel tank when it is ... shot at?



It gets penetrated...

Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:

Also, what happens to a standard diesel tank when it is penetrated...?



The diesel will run out...

Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:

Does it explode like a petrol tank?



That might depend on what kind of bullet/missile you use...
 :-D

Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:

I read some link here on Amiga.org some time ago about combustion being improved with silver crystals or something. It was very similar to the way the human body digests food and greatly increased fuel effiency. Can anyone remember the technology here?



Are you sure that it was to improve combustion?

I seem to remember a method where silver iodide was applied to the clouds from a plane to make it rain...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: Anyone drive a hybrid?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 12:16:09 PM »
Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:
...
It's about time us enlightened Amiga.org beings showed the lemming-like public the path of the future...

:-D


Yes - two years ago I sold my car and ever since then use my own two feet, ride my bycicle, go by train, tram or bus.

 :-o
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)