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Author Topic: Is Iapetus artificial?  (Read 28424 times)

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Offline Dandy

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« on: February 28, 2005, 08:59:49 AM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:
...
Try to explain why a large body such as Iapetus would be geodesical,

I could imagine a "slow" collision of two bodies beeing the reason. After the collision the two shattered bodies affiliated to the current shape. Could serve as explanation for the equatorial bend as well...

Or non-uniform gravity coud be an explanation for the unusual shpe as well - once saw an report on TV on the earth not beeing really sperical as a result of non-uniform gravity (but this would not explain the equatorial bend)...
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falemagn wrote:
and why would it have nested hexagonal craters,

Because of the hexagonal shape of their nested impactors, perhaps?
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falemagn wrote:
and why does it have an equatorial bend.

See above...
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falemagn wrote:
...
Well, I can't say anything about your numbers 'cause I haven't seen the calculations behind them, but I can point you to how things are in reality: Saturn's got many other moons, and many of them have a mass inferior to the one of Iapetus, yet they are perfectly spherical.
...


I strongly doubt that any "perfectly spherical", naturally originated celestial body exists, until you proove me wrong...
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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2005, 09:16:37 AM »
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falemagn wrote:
There's no reason for which crust expanding and shrinking should produce hexagons, ...

There's no reason for freezing water to produce hexagonal ice crystal structures either...
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falemagn wrote:
... yet alone nested ones.

... yet alone snowflakes.
Quote

falemagn wrote:
And if you look at other pictures on the site, there are also examples of hexagonal craters being placed on a straight line, parallel to the ridge, at the same distance from one another.

Ever heard of/seen the impact of Shoemaker-Levy-9 on Jove a few years ago?
What's so hard to understand here?
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falemagn wrote:
Also, crust expanding/shrinking can't explan the facets the moon seems to be made of.

Well - have you ever seen a "ball" formed of lots of soap bubbles?
Guess what shape the single bubbles have - they're hexagonally shaped!
All the best,

Dandy

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Re: \o/
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2005, 09:42:42 AM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:
...
The odds that another civilization was in this solar system before us are the same as the ones for us being here right now. Quite likely, I'd say. For what we all know, it could be us who placed that thing there, eons ago.

Yes - you got me - I'm the one who left his spaceship in Saturn's orbit once the engine quit.
From there I went hitch-hiking across the galaxis...
Do I now have to await an ticket?
 :-D
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falemagn wrote:
...
Coming back to the original topic, whether Iapetus is artificial or not I don't know, but as of now any proof that it's natural is lacking, and all clues point to it being artificial. In the end we may discover it's as natural as a {bleep}ball, but right now that's not the case.

I prefer to see it as naturally originated, as long as no-one can come up with evidence of it beeing artificial...

It simply is more likely naturally originated than artificially made.
Period.
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2005, 09:38:29 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
...
Perhaps OT:

Hexagons are actually pretty common in nature.

The hexagonal geometry of ice and snowflakes is dictated by hydrogen bonding.

The hexagonal shape of a raft of soap bubbles arises from the fact that the hexagonal sheet gives you the most space efficient geometry (most bubbles per unit area). You can stack these hexagonally close packed sheets on top of each other (in 2 ways) to give two conformations known as HCP (hexagonally close packed) and CCP (cubic close packed). Sicne bubbles are not hard spheres, they will literally deform into an even denser arrangement that leaves no gaps and gives each bubble a tightlu defined geometry.

Take any number of equally sized hard spheres (eg marbles) and put them on a tray, shake it gently. You'll see them arrange themselves in the hexagonal pattern of a bubble raft (for exactly the same reason). Try to fill a volume with them and you will get either CCP or HCP overall. No other arrangement gives you the same packing efficiency (for hard spheres CCP/HCP is about 73 pecent or something).


That's precisely what I intended to say - I just hadn't the time to word it in English.

Clearly shows that a naturally reason for all these so called "abnormalities" is much more likely.
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2005, 11:09:38 AM »
Quote

Quixote wrote:
...
Even aliens need to save money.

If they really still use "money", they cannot be much more advanced than we are...
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Quixote wrote:
...the folk who build Iapetus...

:roll:
Really - is there one?
Evidences?
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Quixote wrote:
...did so in reaction to a predicted planetary explosion, ...

 :-? :-? :-?
Where are your facts?
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Quixote wrote:
...and still collect enough sunlight to keep warm.

Oha.
Okay - since Albert Einstein we all know everything is relative.
 ;-)
But I would not think that the collected sunlight in an Saturn orbit is enough to keep Iaphetus what mankind calls "warm"...
:-D
(I rather think you'd freeze your ass off)
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Dandy

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Re: \o/
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2005, 06:42:23 PM »
Quote

Quixote wrote:
The alternative to the existance of money as an institution is for each individual to do everything for himself: grow his own food, weave his own cloth to sew into his own clothes, cobble his own shoes from leather he tanned from the hide of a calf/cow he butchered after raising it himself....

In short, any economic system that divides the categories of labor among the people so that each citizen isn't doing everything requires an accounting system to track how much of the work you did is worth how much of the work I did and so on. Otherwise there could be no coordination of the individual efforts into a cohesive whole.

The medium of currency is unimportant, only the institution of money as an abstract concept.

Another way of looking at it is man-hours. (Or alien-hours, if you will) Greater efficiency produces better results for the same effort. Remember that the laws of physics are the same for everyone, regardless whether another species may understand them better.

Well - you can find loads of examples for alternatives within the SciFi literature...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2005, 07:47:08 AM »
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Quixote wrote:
...
Since the ridge divides Iapetus exactly in half,
...

As long as you can't provide exact figures to proove your theorie I would prefer to say: appearently divides Iapetus exactly in half...
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Quixote wrote:
it would have been necessary for both lesser bodies to be exactly the same size, which would have been remarkably unlikely.  

Why do you assume it to be "remarkably unlikely"?
It's remarkaby unlikely that your parents found each other to procreate you - and yet it happened - you are the living evidence!
;-)
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Quixote wrote:
...the composition of Iapetus' northern and southern hemispheres is uniform,...

The same with earth, moon, ...
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Quixote wrote:
...which would require that the two lesser bodies had been identical in composition as well as size.  Another unlikely coincidence.

That doesn' mean anything.
Look at the evolution: It's a whole "chain" of unlikely coincidences...
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Quixote wrote:
Finally, consider two ice skaters zipping towards each other, on a near-collision course.  As they pass, each reaches out, and they clasp hands.  The result is that they spin together about their mutual center of gravity.  

No - I wouldn't call it "center of gravity" - it's rather the "centre of centrifugal force" and the centre of the "orbit" they're spinning on...
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Quixote wrote:
Notice how they are positioned side by side, instead of one above the other?  

I would say this is depending on your point of view...
If you laid down on your side, it would pretty well look for you as if they were one above the other...
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Quixote wrote:
If the ridge girdering Iapetus were the result of two bodies colliding together, the "smush seam," as it were, it would run through Iapetus' poles, ...

If the collision path of these two bodies was vertical to Iapetus' axis, you would be right.
But what if the collision path of these hypothetical two bodies was somehow identical with Iapetus' axis?
Wouldn't then the result be exactly what we see?
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Quixote wrote:
instead of exactly ninety degrees from that.

From what our eyes can see, you might be right, but our eyes are not really precise.
What we consider to be exactly ninety degrees, could as well be 89 degrees or 91 degrees.
So - if you use the term "exactly", I would expect precise figures - not just your subjective estimation...
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Quixote wrote:
 That, and it wouldn't be so even, all along it's length.

Is it really even, all along it's length?
Or was that just again one of your estimations, based on what your eyes pretend to see?
All the best,

Dandy

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Re: \o/
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2005, 04:24:43 PM »
@Karlos
Quote


Karlos wrote:

That's why I left it around Saturn; I was hoping nobody would notice...

 :-o
Hey - I was the first!
 ;-)

Quote

Posted on: 2005/2/28 10:42


Dandy wrote:
...

Yes - you got me - I'm the one who left his spaceship in Saturn's orbit once the engine quit.
From there I went hitch-hiking across the galaxis...
Do I now have to await an ticket?
 :-D

But as you are begging me that nicely to pay the ticket for wrong parking on my behalf - then be it!
 :-D  :lol:
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2005, 02:24:14 AM »
@Quixote
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Quixote wrote:
Let's not be pendantic. It is their shared center of mass, or the center of their shared mass. That, and the center of gravity are usually so close as to be indistinguishible. Smushing two bodies together would alter the spin of the two. The new body would have an axis of rotation that would usually bisect the demarkation where the two joined, or nearly so.

I just wanted to point out that "gravity" and
"centrifugal force" are two different things and must not be mixed up, as "gravity" is effective just to the opposit direstion as "centrifugal force".
In your example there is no "gravitational force" aside from the one that keeps your spinning skaters on the ground.
The force trying to disperse your couple is the "centrifugal force" - not "gravity".
In cosmos "gravity" is the couterforce to the "centrifugal force" - in your example "gravity" is replaced by the couple holding each other by the hands.
Sorry - but:
No gravity -> no centre of it!
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Quixote wrote:
By definition of the term, the equator is exactly ninety degrees from the poles.

Yes - by definition of the term!
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Quixote wrote:
And our best data to date has that ridge exactly along Iapetus' equator.

All hoagland is showing on those pages are pictures.
And from what I can see from those pics the ridge could be exactly ninety degrees from the poles.
But it could as well be 89 or 91 degrees...

As long as no precise measurements/figures can be provided, no serious scientist or engineer would risk his reputation by insisting on the angle between that "equatorial ridge" and the axis through the poles being exactly 90 degrees, just by looking at pictures...
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Quixote wrote:
I'm stunned by the "Eyes pretend to see" remark. What does it look like to you?

To me it looks rather rough than even...

BTW:
Hoaxland (or was it Hoagland? :-D) frequently is referring to impacts on Iaphetus.
If Iaphetus really would be hollow, I would expect the impacting bodies to go through Iaphetus (at least those who caused the big craters) - leaving "tunnel-like" holes, where you would be able to see parts of the "inner structure" of an arteficial body.
Iaphetus then would look more like a ball of swiss cheese - rather than like just any moon littered with relativly flat craters!

Ahh - annother BTW:
After having looked long enough at Hoaxlands face (I think this way of spelling the name fits better), I seem to know where his obsession with hexagonal shapes derives from (please, don`t take this more serious than I take Hoagland):

Sorry - I can`t figure out how to upload the pic - the "image" button seems not to work.
As soon as I know how to do it, I will upload the image - promised!
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2005, 01:29:49 PM »
@Quixote
Quote

Quixote wrote:
 Bear in mind that I'm posting from work, and thus have less time to frame and polish my arguments then I would prefer.

Ahhh - so you are one of those bad guys, who causes damage to his employer by using his equipement for private purposes and so risking their job (like me?)?
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Quixote wrote:
In my ice skating analogy, I sought to draw parallels between celestial mechanics and a more well known situation, to make the physics more intuitive for the casual reader who knew little of the physics involved. In the comparison, the gravity holding two bodies together was analogized to the strength of the skaters' arms; the gravity holding them to the ice has no parallel in space, and to attempts to draw one would stretch the analogy too far.

The principle which I sought to illustrate was that any two bodies merging in space would assume a new axis of rotation, and that that axis would be perpendicular to their original directions of movement, despite whatever their original axis of rotation had been.

Now I understand what you mean - it was just that the wording was choosen a little bit unlucky (due to your employer looking over your shoulder? :-D)...
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Quixote wrote:
(Granted, it varies with the relative porportionate sizes of the bodies in question;

Fully agreed so far...
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Quixote wrote:
a volkswagen sized body striking the Earth would alter its axis, but not enough to measure, let alone to notice. -But we were postulating that the two bodies were of sizes near enough to equal to create the ridge seen around Iapetus' equator. At those porportions, the new axis would be perpendicular to their relative directions of movement, while the "smush seam" would be similarly perpendicular to that direction, thus running through the new poles, instead of along the new equator.)

Yes.
But as I pointed out in a previous post, there is a special case which can explain an natural origin for the EQUATORIAL ridge.
Admittedly such a special case would be the exception - but it is certainly *NOT* impossibel.
On the other hand - Iapetus being arteficial would be such an exception as well, although not impossibel as well - don`t you agree?
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Quixote wrote:
 Next, it really must be repeated that such word play as "Hoaxland," while creative, still constitutes an Ad Hominum Abusive, and is not a valid argument.

Yes - I know.
But I wrote this last night at 3.30 a.m. and was desperately looking for something funny to keep me awake until I finished my post.
:-)
Too sad that I cant upload that (slightly edited) image of Mr. Hoagland - that provided the fun that actiually kept me awake...

How did you upload your Images? I tried the "Image" button, but it does not work with AWeb II v3.4 on my A4k with CSPPC and OS 3.9...
Edit:
Hummm - last night the .gifs for the buttons weren`t displayed - I just could see the the "placeholder" field including the word "Image". So I assumed this to be the button to upload images.
Today the images for the buttons were displayed - and now that button is named "Manager", but also doesn`t work if I click it.
Now the mystery even deepens - how did you upload your pics?
Any suggestions?
Quote

Quixote wrote:
 On to the thought that sustained meteorotic bombardment would eventually punch holes through the shell of Iapetus. The obvious follow-up question is "what size?"

Well - if we look at the biggest crater (which is approximately half as big as Iapetus' diameter) - I would assume that the body which caused it must have had a diameter of - lets say 10 km.
If a *MASSIVE* body of *THAT* size impacts an hollow body with the speed that we think to be "normal" for impacts, then it would certainly have passed trough Iapetus.
Okay - delta v (the relative difference of speed) could bell less fast as we assume - but it still would have "drilled" a deep hole - much deeper than the visible crater.
And if the impact speed was very low, then I would expect to see half of the size of the impactor mountain-like in the middle of the crater - but there`s nothing!
Quote

Quixote wrote:
Under Hoagland's model, some of the meteorites HAVE penetrated the roof, or shell, of Iapetus, allowing its interior atmosphere (or more properly, its biosphere) to escape, eventually to freeze on the surface.
valid argument.

No - as I stated above, the deep hole is missing. All that`s there is a standard crater.
So sorry - I can`t accept this as an valid argument.
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Quixote wrote:
Thus, the white layer of ice and organic compounds on the leading face, where meteorites land more frequently, while the relatively less damaged trailing face still shows the original carbon black face.

This model explains WHY one face is white;

Could we agree on the term "This model *COULD* *BE* *ONE* *POSSIBEL* *EXPLANATION* why one face is white."?
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Quixote wrote:
to my knowlrdge the conventional model does not.

What "conventional model" are you referring to?
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Quixote wrote:
Further, one specualation regarding the ridge is that it is a support structure, built with greater strength than most of the surrounding regions.

The question is: Why?
Why should an artificial body - constructed of hexagonal planes and so having sufficiant stability - need an equatorial "support frame"?
If we are aleady speculating - it more reminds me of the spaceships mentioned in the Perry Rhodan SciFi novels (SOL-Class ships).
They were spherical as well, also had an equatorial beading, inside which the "jet outlets" of the engines were located...
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Quixote wrote:
At one time, the surrounding surface was as high as the ridge, and since then the majority of the surface has been smashed in, collapsing to the irregular depths we see now. If this is the case, then closeup photos of the dark side would show no ridge, or the ridge at a much reduced altitude relative to the surrounding surface.

As I stated above - I don`t think so.
The deep holes from the impacts are missing. All that`s there are standard craters.
So sorry - I can`t accept this as an valid argument.
Quote

Quixote wrote:
More later..

You`re welcome - it`s a pleasure discussing with you!
I would like to contact you via PM on behalf something else - would that be O.K.?
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2005, 01:44:40 PM »
Basically you`re right - but I don`t mind him representing the "pro"-side, while I represent
the "con"-side, as long as the discussion stays reasonable...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2005, 09:12:55 AM »
Hummmmm - that`s a pity!
I prepared some pics taken from that Hoagland site to show
a possible explanation for the appearently hexagonal craters
(one meant as a joke and some meant to be serious).

Unfortunately I don`t have a website yet - so I can`t share
them with you.
Really sad!
:-(

I will try this evening to send you the images via PM -
perhaps you can put them on your webspace and give me the
link and I edit my post(s) then and add the links - given
your agreement.

All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2005, 08:48:38 PM »
@Quixote:
Quote

Quixote wrote:
...
It would probably be all right if...

I was able to access your PM, but I`m not able to reply (button is not working) or to create new PM (button not working as well).

It appears tha you are rather limited in this amiga forum when browsing with an *REAL* classic Amiga and with Amiga software!

The "Quote"-button here as well isn`t working...

It`s a shame!
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2005, 01:21:29 PM »
Quote

Quixote wrote:
...
Fascinating stuff.

What I found most fascinating were the links to the "Nazi-Bell", "Rhine valley experiment", "Philadelphia experiment" and Einsteins Antigravitational Theories...

While following the links I came to a page where "lifters" were shown, and there also was an report about an weired looking canadian (forgot his name), who did many experiments in that direction.

There were photos/videos how he managed to melt metal just with these magnetic fields at room temperature.

There also were reports about the so called "spokes" in the rings of Saturn and an scientific explanation of them.

Somewhere there it was said, that these hyper-energetic forces can leave amazing traces on bodies that were exposed to them - like hexagonal shapes.

Maybe this could be the explanation for Hoaglands hexagonal craters on Iaphetus and other strange shapes there?

From my point of view that would make a lot of more sense than to say those strange shapes are the proof for extra-terrestical life and that Iaphetus was made arteficially by them as a kind of spaceship to bring life to Earth and then being "parked" in an Saturn orbit.
:inquisitive:
It would not require such a big object to spread life in form of some microbes around the cosmos...

Remember the Mars-meteorite found by the scientsts in the ice of the south pole. They say there are traces of ancient microbes on/in it...
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

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Re: \o/
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2005, 10:09:26 PM »
@Quixote:
Quote

Quixote wrote:

 There is now more from Enterprise Mission. Check out page six.

Fascinating stuff.

Well - I checked out and commented.
How about you - are you on holiday?
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)