potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:

I live in Mass, I bought the car from Alabama.  There I had leather seats and added a factory sub-woofer option.  From there I had it shipped to Illinois where it's waiting for a racing brake and suspension kit to be built as well as a 6 speed install.  Hope to have it here for the end of March where I will have a remote starter (hope they will install on sticks) and alarm put it.  Then I will have the motor ripped out and purchase a bigger block rebuilt for high performace.  My first spectator drag race is Memorial Day weekend so I need the car driveable by then.

As for the GC install, that's after JLF65 has done his AROS port and suitable AROS applications exist.  However, I can and probably will install a GC in my car when I redesign the dash with the stereo I linked to in a prior post whether or not a suitable OS exists...I mean, after all, it is still a Gamecube.  Thanks for asking.

Dang, thats a lot of transport fees you must be paying there. What kind of car is it? What are the specs on the engine your having put in?

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
Ok, everybody power up their Gamecube.

Happy Anniversary!

 :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :pint:  :pint:  :pint:

Now this is some history here, the amiga thread that lasted an entire year and it didnt have anything to do with t-shirts, nor was usenet involved.

Just immagine, Nintendo being the savior of amiga.

[koaftder]

 

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
Exactly.  I got an A in C and had an A in C++ until the take home final project that we were given a week to work on.  I went out of my way to make everything in the situation we were simulating an object.  I implemented every object-oriented feature (polymorphism, superclassing, friends...you name it) and it just crashed.  Narrowed it down to exactly what made it crash and checked it 20 times and asked others to look at it and noone knew why it just crashed.  It was an illegal reference...but it wasn't.  I ended up with a B because I failed the final.

That B made me give C++ the F.

So you are telling us that c++ sucks because in your limited
scholastic experience you didnt make the grade you wanted because you couldnt figure out a bug in your program?

This has to be one of the lamest arguments ive ever heard.

Now I happily program database driven applications in VB.Net... which doesn't crash for no apparent reason when I instantiate objects.

This is 2006.  Code doesn't have to look cryptic anymore.  We have MEGABYTES of RAM to play with not 38k (Commodore 64).  It can look pretty and readable and still be fast.  Really it can.  Honestly, other than uber-geek bragging rights, why settle for C/C++?

To say that any language generally is no good is an absurd statement. When starting a project you first define what the problem is, and how you intend to provide a solution. Every language has it's strengths and weakness. The goal is to pick a language or set of languages that fits. Youve got a lot of things to take into account, legacy stuff, the skill sets of the staff, speed of implimentation, etc. You seem to be doing db stuff, and you have skills with vb and not c, so obviously you went that route. If the boss is happy and you are still getting paid then you made the right decisions.

In a project i'm working on, an embedded device making use of an 8052 microprocessor, we had to pick a language. Our choices were basic, c, or assembler. We rulled out assembler off the top, as there is a lot of float math we need to do and float math in assembler can be very time consuming. We wanted to use basic, as it would make code review go quicker, allowing us to get to market faster, but in evaulating a few basic compilers for 8052 we found that many features we require were lacking. I evaualated several c compilers, picked the one that met our requirements and set out to start development.

And that started out with requirements documentation, implementation dox, flow charts and state diagrams. We have a coding standard, variable names have an order, comments are abundant, and source is peer reviewed. We didnt need to do this because we are writing software in c, we do this because this is how you write software that works. The procedures would have been the same regardless of what language we decided to use. The decade doesnt matter, use the right tool for the job.
[/quote]

And frankly, what makes C++ worse is the people who code in it.  You all know who you are.  You make your code o ugly, know one would dare modify your original source because no one can freaking read it!

Poorly written vb.net code isnt any easier to read than poorly written c code.

[koaftder]

Case in point:

a = b++;  /* C/C++ code */

vs.

b += 1   ' VB.Net code
a = b

Back in the 80's when RAM was tight, it would make sense that your source code could only be so big...heck back then they wouldn't have even put the comments in.  The compiler will compile those code snippets the exact same way...why make it ugly?  Also if I had made it:

a = ++b;

Your two snippets are not equivalent. With the c code, you assign the value of b to a first then you add one to b.

Your vbcode adds one to b then assigns that value to a.

Before you start getting into arguments about language semantics, maybe you should learn the language first?

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
@koftloader,

LOL, now you stand here judging my scholastic ability.
I used to code 8502 assembly in '86 when I considered myself a "hacker" with my trusty 128D.  You can judge me all you want.  I've forgotten more things than kids with CIS degrees today know.

I don't have the patience for any of that stuff anymore.  I'm in my mid 30's.  I have a full-time job.  I have rental property to maintain.

I don't have time to study code for a hobby.  To write my own kernal.  I plain don't want to.  I leave that to the people who are already experts at it because one guy in his bedroom isn't going to re-invent the wheel.  Now given a nice IDE with a proper API for creating applications to do specific tasks that I need done or get paid to do - now that I have time for.

Again, the point i was making went completely over your head.

[koaftder]

Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
Logic errors are easy to make and your own eyes can deceive you and your brain can play tricks on you with such a sublte and simple thing as where to put a ++.

When I write
b += 1
a = b

It's pretty hard to not figure out what's going on here.  Thanks for proving my point.  :-D

The only point that was proved is that you dont know c.

The same types of logic errors can be made in your favorite language as well. And if you wanted to you could break up the statement into 2 lines of c like you did with your vb example. Your ignorance of the language does not make a valid argument as to whether or not it's obsolete.

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:

koaftder wrote:

Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
Logic errors are easy to make and your own eyes can deceive you and your brain can play tricks on you with such a sublte and simple thing as where to put a ++.

When I write
b += 1
a = b

It's pretty hard to not figure out what's going on here.  Thanks for proving my point.  :-D

The only point that was proved is that you dont know c.

The same types of logic errors can be made in your favorite language as well. And if you wanted to you could break up the statement into 2 lines of c like you did with your vb example. Your ignorance of the language does not make a valid argument as to whether or not it's obsolete.

OK, so if I can break it up into the same 2 statements then why is it superior in C?

C saved space when that requirement was important.  It's not anymore...and it still requires those accursed semi-colons so when you break it up, it takes up more space in your source code file sizes...

It's not superior, honestly, it doesnt matter. The modern c programmer is not concerned with the size of his source files. But, for most people who know the language, a=++b; just aint a big deal, we all know whats going on there.

And with the semicolon thing, who cares? Makes it easy to break up a long line into multiple ones. I dont hear you complaining that python figures out scope by looking at tabs. You can break up long lines too, via another method, its the _ character isnt it? Who cares? Are you really so bothered by a ; or that you have the option to say a=++b; instead of b++;a=b; ? Why not compain about php and the '=' '==' & '===' operators as well? What language doesnt have something in it that some people find strange? Why not compain about forth and how you have to pass parameters on the stack your self unlike other languages which do this for you behind the scenes?

Lets complain about and tell the world it's '06 and we need to move on? Do you compain about flathead screwdrivers not being good for unscrewing torx screws? My original point was analise the situation, use the right tool for the job. Some times vb.net is the right tool, some times it's c, sometimes it's assembler or php or perl or lua or ruby or objC or java or vbscript or fortran or lisp or ada or smalltalk or ....

[koaftder]

justthatgood wrote:
@koaftder

Which to me in the case of any device that would have a less then ideal system bus, and a paltry amount of memory, it would be C/C++. Err, or you could use Forth, Sy, Python, REBOL, etc...  (I remember loved Atari Pilot and LOGO)

64kb flash in code segment, 8 bit micro @ 16MHz, 2kb ram. Seems pretty limited, but you can do an awful lot with it. I considered forth ( i like forth ) but couldnt go with it for a number of reasons, mainly because nobody is familiar with the language, so code reviews would be really slow. If i left they would have to find a forth guy, which could be hard, and he's probably going to be more expensive than an average c guy.

[koaftder]

blah blah blah. A thread started about amigaOS on nintendo, morphed into a retarded discussion about language a vs language b.

The language itself is just a tool. Being skilled at writing software has less to do with language, and almost everything to do with design. It all boils down to math, and languages are just ways to express the algorithms. Languages just provide different ways to express the design. To argue one language over the other without any substantial reason is just proving to the world that you dont actually have a clue.

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
Yes, I know most OS's are written in C and that means C is in the business world - but it's not.  The OS is in the business world and is not maintained by each individual customer.  The OS is an end product.  C/C++ is just not the dominant language in the IT world when companies need quick applications or reports.

Well, the fact that I don't like C is why I'm waiting for someone else to get an OS running on the GC vs. me doing it myself.

I realize games development is done in C/C++ but I'm not games developer and neither are most of you.

@Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using  b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line.  It's easier to debug.

@koftldr
Basic has the ':' incase I want to put 2 commands on one like.  I still don't want to put 2 commands on one like.  That's the point.  C was made to be small.
then there's:
{
 {
  {
}
}
}

I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.

That's why C/C++ sucks.
I never said it isn't capable of doing anything.  Just that degugging it and maintaining it is harder - that's the disadvantage.  Compilers will compile ideally.  The language it irrelevant, so it might as well be easy to read and use

cmon, your not helping out on the porting because your not up to the task. Just be honest about it. Maybe you just dont have the time, good god, dont blame the language it's written in.

yes, your {{{}}} example is cute. Its a worthless example though, as nobody would just pile up a bunch of empty braces like that.

Again, all languages allow people to write absurd programs. That doesnt make the language bad.

Since apparantly you are the resident language expert, what language do you purpose we all code in?

[koaftder]

@lou_dias

let me fix that for you:

Code: [Select]


int i;
for( i=0; i<10; ++i ) {
   if ( mod(i,2) == 0 ) {
      printf ( &quot;even\n&quot; ) ;
   } else {
      printf ( &quot;odd like koaftder()\n&quot; ) ;
   }
}


I dont think the above is hard to read... Using enough braces is not an issue. When you write in a '{' you immedately write in the trailing '}' before you fill it in. A nice IDE makes all this even easier. Most will highlight the associated bracket when you move the cursor over it. Lines with syntactical problems are highlighted, etc. Most can autoindent and all that good stuff you are used to in visual studio.

If you think it's ugly, thats your personal oppinion, it has no bearing on whether or not the language sucks.

And you still didnt answer my question, since you think c sucks, what is your ideal language?

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
VB.NET

 :lol:

anyway, vb.net is pretty cool, i use it from time to time, nice and convinent. A top notch rad tool. Cant use it for everything though. Sometimes it's the right tool for the job, other times c is the right tool. Different strenghts, different weakness.

[koaftder]

Ive noticed that most of the other developer types on a.org never bothered to add their bit to this discussion. That probably means something.

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
Well it amuses me to see people get all huffy about subjective material.

Developers has their favorite environment and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it unless mandated to change it by a superior or sheer curiosity.

Waccoon, you can run your mouth all you want.  So because I had 2 classes in C/C++ some 15 years ago, I'm supposed to remember every nuance?  Same with 6502/8502 assembly when I was 16 or 17 and 8088 assembly during a college course...again 15 years ago.  What I do remember is my impressions of using the language.  That's all I need.  I started using Visual Studio in 97/98 and haven't needed anything else ever since.  I have read a book on Java Certification Exams since then but I couldn't become comfortable in and IDE so I was turned off by it.  Even read a book on PHP/MySQL/Apache for Windows (WAMP) (C for the internet - oh joy) and didn't like that either.

I'm employed to develop in VB.net 2003 (soon 2005) with SQL Server.  I have no need nor desire to force myself to like a language that isn't going to pay my bills.

Unless one of YOU are going to pay me to say that I like C or C++, it's not going to happen.  Deal with it.

Your oppinion about a language that you used briefly 15 years ago means nothing to anybody. And thats what everybody is saying, so why do you feel the need to keep repeating it?

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:

koaftder wrote:

Your oppinion about a language that you used briefly 15 years ago means nothing to anybody. And thats what everybody is saying, so why do you feel the need to keep repeating it?

Because they keep expecting me to change it as if I should worship the keyboard they type on.

Your opinion is an unpopular one. If you went to democrats.org and ranted on about how great bush is you would get similar feedback. Obviously this just isnt the place to tell the world that you think vb.net is better than c/c++. Sorry, thats just how life works.