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Author Topic: Excitement about NatAmi  (Read 84453 times)

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Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #14 from previous page: December 02, 2010, 11:24:06 AM »
Quote from: the_leander;596318
The point you keep failing to take on board is that doing a straight calculation only works if you're talking about the two blitters being functionally identical and no different in terms of how they do their job.

His point is very clear, and is based upon simple assumptions:

1) The NatAmi blitter is backwards compatible - it's not much of an Amiga hardware re-implementation if it isn't

2) The NatAmi blitter works (I mean, seriously, you have issues regarding this when the hardware is FPGA and can easily be updated if there are latent bugs?)

The maximum amount of data that can be blitted is limited by the memory bandwidth. It is further limited by how fast the blitter runs, but I think we can safely assume that it will be running faster than on the original hardware.

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The moment you start throwing in buffers, 32bit blitting etc. All bets are off.


Buffers (for DDR2 memory bursts) - speed up the blitter
32-bit blitting - speed up the blitter

These are both arguments in favour of Lou's assertions, and I presume these are also factored in to the NatAmi team's projections. It's not like 100x faster blitter is some unattainable magical thing - the AGA blitter was appalling anyway, apparently a 4x speedup would have been trivial if it had supported 32-bit and page mode on the memory! That's before you try running it faster than ~4MHz...

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This is of course assuming that the blitter on the natami actually works as advertised and doesn't have some hitherto unknown bug etc.

This is not a valid argument. If the blitter doesn't work, no-one will buy a NatAmi. It's not like they didn't show early prototypes running on the C-One and the other evaluation board is it? And being an FPGA, rare occurrence bugs can be fixed when they're noticed.

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(rudeness removed) Without benchmarks on real (or as real as an fpga powered platform can be) hardware, you cannot prove your case.

Ah, the FPGA isn't hardware argument. Sheesh.

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As another in the thread said - what you're doing is speculating. Only you're claiming it as "fact", which is dishonest.

At least he has made an effort to back up his claims.

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I can challenge anyone's claims at any time as can anyone else on this public forum. Those who actively refuse to provide evidence and are, time and again spanked for talking rubbish.

You can argue like an adult, or just call people names. You call people names. Grow up.

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Ah, run out of arguments so you attack the person asking you for proof.

You appear to have projection issues.

*more personal attacks removed*

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Coming from you, that means absolutely nothing, mr gamecube. You were running around the forums talking about porting to the gamecube first, later the wii, without even the slightest thought as to how wise a choice that would be. As JJ said, rouge said it to get you to shut up.

I think I get it. You don't care what Lou is saying, you just want Lou to shut up because he is Lou. That's very personal. Why are you dredging up something that apparently is YEARS OLD? I guess you have a personal vendetta. Take it away from this forum please.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 11:26:20 AM by Hattig »
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2010, 01:18:43 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;596341
Which he claims as fact. Do try to keep up.


You have an attitude problem. You showed it in your early responses to lou's post - e.g., "I'd owe you sweet FA chum." - a very aggressive phrasing in English, it's effectively one step before someone glasses someone in the face in a pub.

When someone writes "100x faster blitter" they're not being 100% pedantically accurate. In English it it understood as "around 100x faster" to "a boat load faster". He then went on to mention that FPGAArcade is getting 40x faster blits (although he could have cited that, but again, the forums on Amiga.org aren't wikipedia, they're chatty forums), that NatAmi's specs are even higher, so it isn't an unreasonable expectation.

There's nothing wrong with Lou stating what the NatAmi team have stated as their aims. You should be asking for evidence from SamuraiCrow or other NatAmi people as to the speed and status of NatAmi - however to their credit they have said that they'd rather work on NatAmi right now than give continuous updates.

It is interesting to note that you jumped on Lou's 100MHz 68060 comment very quickly, and that in the next comment SamuraiCrow said that it was actually a 99MHz 68060, but that the 68050 core would be over 100MHz.

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My problem isn't with the assumption as such (though given the proposed updates in the rest of the enhanced AGA being proposed by the Natami team I think a simple maths equation just won't cut it), but with the fact that he states it as fact and then gets angry when asked to provide evidence.


He tried to show you why he thought that, basically faster FPGA than FPGAArcade, a faster memory bus, etc.

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All I did was ask for evidence "Citation needed". Apparently these days that's abrasive, rude and obnoxious. Fair enough.
Still failing. Read above.


No, that's not what is abrasive, rude and obnoxious. It's what and how you are writing it that that is.

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My reason for "dredging up" the past was to point out that far from some pedestal occupying god, to be gazed at in wonder but not to be questioned that he'd apparently like to be treated as. He is in fact only a hair's breadth from being Atheist2. Honestly I don't know or really care about him, in fact the word "muppet" pretty much sums up my feelings toward him in their totality.


So he had some fancy ideas in the past that might have been based entirely upon the Gamecube/Wii having a PowerPC processor.

Instead of responding to him if you hold him in low regard, why not just ignore him? Or accept that some people might have less technical knowledge, and that their desire is to have a friendly discussion in an online forum in a similar way to having a friendly chat down the pub. It's meant to be fun. He's not advocating genocide for MorphOS users or something! It's been pointed out loads of time in this thread that we'll find out in due course what NatAmi is like, we're all working from what has been written on the NatAmi website, said in the NatAmi forums and said by NatAmi members here and elsewhere.

As for me, a 100x faster blitter sounds great, but I won't cry if it's only 50x faster in the end due to the FPGA, the design, the memory speed or the weather in Iceland on that day. The same goes for the 68050 design they're working on. I wish them the best of luck but we'll see if it will clock at 133MHz, or 66MHz. If they know it will, they could throw us a tidbit of information now, but until then we're taking their word for it in order to have a fun chat about this project.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 01:21:10 PM »
Quote from: JJ;596338
Who made you a mod ?


No one, I'm just saying that I don't want to read continuous personal attacks in an otherwise fun thread about NatAmi and what it could mean, in a forum that has the word 'ideas' in the name.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2010, 02:39:40 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;596363
And if you look carefully, you'd see that there was a link explaining the meaning behind the "You are X and I claim my £5" from wikipedia.


Yeah, it's a light hearted comment.

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Context, will you bother to supply any?


Bored of you writing this.

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Maybe it is considered "aggressive phrasing" amongst the chattering classes, but down here on the front lines it's every day language used as a polite replacement for "Fuck All", the verbal equivalent of putting stars * in place of letters. In short, you're talking nonsense.

It wasn't the FA that I had the issue with. It was the entire phrase, including 'chum', which actually doesn't mean 'friend', 'buddy', 'mate', but is used to make a phrase more unfriendly and aggressive.

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And instead of saying anything like you're implying, he went off on one about it being pure maths to prove his case that what he said was in fact, a fact. One which if I didn't agree to, would mean I was subnormal.


He tried to explain why it was likely to be the case, due to the more modern technology on NatAmi compared to the original Amiga technology, and relating it to FPGAArcade's attainment level in the same regard. I never saw anything from him stating that is was a solid fact set in concrete.

He would have done better to link to the NatAmi FAQ where it says 100x to 200x faster blitter directly, and then let the NatAmi developers back up their claims.

As for bugs in the chipset that were mentioned a lot, surely the NatAmi LX video from earlier this year should alleviate many such concerns?
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2010, 02:40:30 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;596369
Other people, **cough**the_leander**cough**, just aren't too bright.


No need to reduce yourself to making insults too.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2010, 03:41:02 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;596403
Well, that's news to a lot of us: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chum

You better contact them quick and tell them "No, wait... the other thing!"


It's how it is used that changes the meaning, and it certainly isn't commonly used as 'friend' (unlike 'mate', etc) when stuck on the end of a sentence such as what it was used in. I've had enough of this bickering - I've asked the NatAmi forum if they've got any solid information to back up the 100x to 200x claim, and if they do I'll post it here. Best to get it from the horse's mouth, eh? "NatAmi want crunchy apple!"
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 02:10:17 PM »
Quote from: kedawa;596841
This is not specifically a Natami question, but something I've wondered about FPGA clones in general.
How practical would it be to use any leftover space on the FPGA to create a secondary core that mimics a simpler computer, like say a VIC-20, that could run in tandem with the main Amiga core?


The FPGA is configured upon bootup.

Therefore if you want a VIC20, or C64, or PC Engine, then you select that configuration upon bootup, and the hardware literally becomes that machine.

Of course you do need someone to create each of the above configurations in the first place, which isn't trivial, but I'm sure that they will come in due course.

It doesn't really make any sense to run two configurations at the same time, especially since they would contend for the I/Os on the FPGA. Far better to use the spare space for future expansion - the 3D core, the DSP, etc.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 03:46:14 PM »
Quote from: dammy;597576
Are they?  I'm so confused when the tri cores are PPEs which control SPEs?  Not what I would consider general purpose CPU cores, but I may be out on left field on that issue.  Mark Rein didn't know if the next generation consoles could handle Unreal 4.  

Guess it boils down if NatAmi will ever need a SMP OS or not.  At this stage of the game, it doesn't need one.


The 360 is a three-way PowerPC core, each core can run two threads at the same time. There are no SPEs.

The PS3 is a single-core PowerPC with two threads, and six SPEs available to the end application to utilise.

I don't think NatAmi will need an SMP aware OS for a while. First step is the 68050. Next step is the 68070. After that maybe they will want to add in SMP capability to the core - but that's surely several years and a hardware revision away?
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 08:55:03 AM »
Quote from: kedawa;597729
I didn't realize people were still spreading this myth.  Aside from sharing some banal power saving tricks, the Xenon is no more similar to the Cell than any other modern PPC chip.


He's talking about the fact that IBM developed the PowerPC Processing Element that was used within Cell, and then used three of them for the XBox 360 chip. This is because IBM developed it and kept the IP, rather than Sony. It's hardly stealing but Sony will probably have a tougher contract next time!
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 10:59:41 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;598551
Better, but still not 100%. Yes the design created for Microsoft has several improvements related to floating point instructions.But both processors, while fast, still suffer from an in order execution pipeline that standard PPCs (which can execute instructions out of order) do not have.


They are still conformant to the POWER ISA v2.03. Sure, it's in-order, albeit with a high clock speed. An x86 equivalent would be an Intel Atom running at 3.2GHz (which, of course, it doesn't). Of course the two-way SMT does increase IPC, especially in an in-order design.

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The designs have similar cores, but these are not standard PPC cores.


This is what is being discussed - the similarity of the XBox and PS3 PowerPC cores.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Excitement about NatAmi
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 11:01:23 AM »
Quote from: kedawa;598571
What's a good example of a modern PPC, though?
There are no current desktop PPC chips, and the game consoles are getting pretty long in the tooth.


I expect that we will have to wait for one of the next generation of games consoles to get a peek - one of them is bound to stay with PowerPC.