AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Available To Buy

[Nearly-Right]

But... still I don't understand if more PCI cards are supported.

I agree, there should be more PCI cards supported under Classic OS4.1, but Hyperion won't allow the Mediator DMA system to work under OS4.x, as they don't like the way it works, if I understand the few words I've had cast my way by Hans and Thomas Joerg-Frieden. (Spelling almost correct I think)

I believe they could allow/support it to work, but they just won't !!

Precisely something about the Spider USB Card....

Why they can't work out a way to implement a PCI USB card/device driver system of their own, to plug into the Mediator, with the help of Elbox I just don't understand.

Why isn't there an upgrade option for people who bought Classic OS4.0, seeing as it's only a further development of the Classic OS4.x which was the worst Workbench release ever, in my opinion.

Until Hyperion released Classic OS4.0, I had never regretted buying an Amiga OS, but they never improved on its initial release by very much, and then they abandoned those who bought it, to suffer with it without any real comeback.

I've hardly ever used Classic OS4.0, as it is such a poor Workbench release, and you can't use much of the hardware that you can use on OS3.9, which you can't on Classic OS4.x.

As yet, I don't see much improvement in OS4.1 that would encourage me to pay the best part of £100 to see a more recent Workbench screen, nicer font system, etc, but not allow me to use the majority of the software/hardware I use under OS3.9.

When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt to migrate from OS3.9 to Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it. There are some benefits, but at considerable cost, outweighed by the drawbacks.

I did ask Hyperion if they had approached any manufacturers about providing new Amiga PPC hardware for Classic OS4.1 as providing an OS requires people with the hardware to be able to use it. However, the basis of the reply was why would they be interested in providing or asking manufacturers if they were interested in manufacturing that type of hardware, as Hyperion do not do hardware, like I don't know that.

Hyperion just seem to be on the 'gravy train' at the moment, and once they have enough 'gravy' (money) from the Classic users they may well dump us yet again.

They (Hyperion) offer very little support, and the same goes for ACube, no FAQ either, and where there was mention of SATA PCI cards on the Hyperion BLOG no sign of it in the final Classic OS4.1 release.

I'll stick with my OS3.9 installation at the moment, rather than waste £100 on Classic OS4.1. If reports of its usability change for the better in the future then I may reconsider my position but at present that's my decision.

[Nearly-Right]

Glad you found my comments about Classic OS4.1 noteworthy.

I really don't like to have a go at Hyperion or Classic OS4.1, as I have done, but their actions, or lack of action, and ethics concern me, and not in a good way.

I've tried to keep my OS3.9 Amiga system running on as daily a basis as possible, within the constraints of the hardware, and software's capabilities, but OS4.x so far offers me very very little benefit, and so very many drawbacks that the choice is simple - spend my money on something else for my 68k/PPC Amiga that is actually useful.

[Nearly-Right]

Not really, it was a comparison between "Classic" and "Next Generation" (or "retro/vintage" and "continuation", or "680x0" and "alien architecture"), as a response to the statement:

"When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it."

There are apples and oranges.  An apple can evolve over time as it grows  ....

Woah, hold on there, I'm smelling that smell again, is it burning rubber, no it's that smell I don't like called bull-$**T

Basically we have two things; the Amiga ("classic"), and the "Next Generation" efforts. And *there is a gap between them*! Apples and oranges.

Please don't talk in fruit-isms explaining to the little people what life is all about. I understand the big picture, and don't need any 'fruit-in-sense' to explain what you mean. Just stick to the facts, please.

not that many important Classic SW titles were made anyway)

Oh, let me think, DPaint, PageStream - still in Amiga development, Lightwave, Imagine, CanDo, Directory Opus, ImageFX, ScanQuix, MakeCD, Perfect Paint, TV Paint, Photofolio, Broadcast Titler, Scala, Hollywood - still in Amiga development, IBrowse. I'm just brushing the surface here, but some of them are still very useful even in today's modern Hi-Ghz comupting systems, not as fast, but they still do a lot of what the more up-to-date software on other platforms is capable of.

You should also keep an eye on the Natami project, which will be more relevant to you than any PowerUP card in existence.

Of course, Natami, and AROS seeing as it uses x86 hardware like Amithlon/AmigaOSXL do. If the Classic OS 4.x doesn't get fixed as it should with full Mediator support I am certainly not interested in getting Classic OS4.x at this point.

"Nearly-Right" above expressed disappointment with the Amiga compatibility of OS4.

No, you've missed my point. I am disappointed that the PCI Mediator hardware has not been embraced by Hyperion, who see it as an obscure piece of hardware, and won't allow it room in their OS, so the DMA hack that works so well under OS3.9 is prevented from working at all under OS4.x, purely because Hyperion - The Friedens, don't like how it works, and so won't give it that bit of room to allow the PCI slots to function as they do under OS3.x.

They, Hyperion/The Friedens, want it - The Mediator, for it's functionality to give more modern Radeon graphics cards support and the ability to enhance their Classic OS4.x graphics system, but then stymie/thwart/stump the rest of the PCI options because they don't like the way it works. Well who is it thwarting, just the Classic Amiga users any chance to have any of the PCI cards being added to the OS4.x system of devices, such as SCSI, USB, SATA, Sound, more modern NICs than the RTL8029AS. All of which, apart from SATA, work under OS3.9.

By the way, there is no Zorro based GFX card that offers the same opportunites as a Radeon card, so OS4.x is definitely aimed at users who have a Mediator, but it seems only for the GFX card slot.

Software incompatability I could understand if it bangs the hardware, but not allowing hardware compatability, for a product that the manufacturers are still actively involved in the Amiga marketplace, which would encourage more people to embrace the Classic OS4.x, is just shooting the Classic Amiga Mediator users in the foot. After all, the GFX part of the Mediator is what is making the OS4.x work mainly, as you need a GFX card to be able to even remotely take advantage of what OS4.x offers. So, cutting off the rest of the Mediator functionality means you've got a £150+ PCI board which is just used to allow GFX functionality, and the other slots, up to 5 more are just redundant.

Oh, did I forget to express my opinion that the PowerUP cards are kind of redundant in 2011, both for retro fans and for NG fans...?

Well they are, as far as I am concerned, if Hyperion don't relent and afford the Mediator this small area of functionality it needs to function under OS4.x

By the way, if you believe in re-incarnation I think you may return in your next life as a fruit-fly. Only kidding

[Nearly-Right]

I think you might be over-estimating what that "DMA hack" would actually buy you.  Lets first take a look at what is supported on the Mediator - out of the box - by the way, with OS 4.1 Classic:

-Realtek 8029 Network card that can get you about 800KB/sec.
-PCI Radeon 9200 or 9250 with up to 256MB of graphics card memory and hardware accelerated Warp3D, MiniGL, and compositing for nice transparency and effects on the Workbench
-Or choose a Voodoo 3/4 or 5 PCI card with up to 32MB of gfx ram.
-Silicon Image PCI Serial ATA cards based on the 3112, 3114, or 3512 chipsets.  SATA CDROM/DVD ROM drives, External Docks, SATA hard disks.
-ESS Solo-1 PCI Sound card

I was aware of the RTL8029AS PCI card, which I'd already mentioned, and of course the Radeon and Voodoo GFX cards I am aware of also.

I read on the Hyperion Blog there was testing of the PCI SATA cards, but I missed the confirmation that certain SATA PCI cards were supported under Classic OS4.1?

However, the release information did not state which chipsets were supported, so your information is of more use, but should have been in the level of detail you've supplied on the release information.

Of course it is a good thing that it is supported, and welcomed.

Communications is a great skill, it seems very much forgotten by the release team.

Ok, so what would that DMA hack buy us?

1) Maybe the capability to use gfx card memory as an addition to physical ram.
2) The possibility to use a 100Mbit network card
3) The possibility to use a SB 128 PCI sound card, and perhaps a few other models
4) The possibility to use an Analog TV Tuner card
5) The possibility to use a 3rd party SCSI card driver (which is like 1MB/sec last I checked)

Ok...

For 1) You can use a ZorRAM or hard disk based swap partition.  You don't need to take away any gfx card ram to use as physical ram (which, by the way, is way slower than any ram on the Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm PPC).

Absolutely no use in a Mediator system on an A1200 as you cannot fit a ZorRAM card in it as there is no Zorro 3 interface on a Mediator or on a standard A1200, it is only of any use in an A4000, and maybe an A3000 also.

Are you the owner of a PPC A4000 or A3000 by any chance?

2) Even if you had a 100Mbit network card, the overall system isn't fast enough to get much over 1MB/sec.  I have tried this under OS 3.9 - using a 100Mbit card, and really, the performance difference is almost non-existing.  You are better off to use a USB network adapter connected to a Deneb and you can get nearly 1MB/sec.

Again you are quoting using a piece of hardware, Deneb, that can ONLY be used in Zorro 3 interface, which doesn't exist in an A1200 Mediator system. What's more, if I got a little more speed out of a 100MB NIC, then that would be an improvement in any case, and I'd take that opportunity, but it's being denied us.

You haven't thought your response through very well so far I am sorry to say.

3)  ESS Solo-1 works fine, other sound cards would buy you next to nothing additional.

The ESS Solo-1 Soundcard is an old PCI card, and is now very difficult to get hold of, and I don't know of an Amiga supplier that stocks it, do you? The other soundcards are very easy to acquire, so why go and develop for a soundcard that is obscure and difficult to come by in significant numbers for Mediator users that might need one for Classic OS4.1?

4) Analog TV is on the way out, in fact most countries already discontinued it.  Even if you had it.  I mean really, do you want to use your Amiga to watch TV all the time?

That is a more valid point, but you can still plug in a Digital TV Freeview STB box with RF modulation into the TV card to get the Freeview channels shown through the Analogue TV card. Again, it's a device that can be used, though I haven't used mine that much of recent.

5) SCSI is nice, but SATA is so much easier (and faster than this 3rd party SCSI driver last I checked.  nice to have it, but you have SCSI already on the cyberstorm PPC (sorry not blizzard yet), but still, SCSI is totally replaced in the real world since a long time.

Yes, but we're using a CLASSIC system here, and SCSI hardware is still a valid hardware format for CLASSIC systems, or else we wouldn't want a Classic OS 4.1 would we?

In any case why is the SCSI working on the A4000 accelerator cards, and not on the Blizzard SCSI adapter, if you know?

Taking all of this into consdieration: With OS 4.1 Classic you can use - out of the box - no additional drivers or setup required - a Radeon 9250 with 256MB, a SATA card, a PCI Sound card, and a PCI network card.   Plus you can use Zorro cards like the Deneb, ZorRAM and others.

The points you make have some validity, but your main argument still does not answer why the DMA hack is not supported/allowed?

As we are using a CLASSIC system, then surely supporting CLASSIC hardware means supporting as much of the existing Classic Mediator hardware as possible to get the most from it.

Why allow the Radeon to function but dis-allow/prevent the Creative soundcards to function or the Spider USB card, or the TV card, or the faster RTL8139 NIC? It does not make any sense.

We are limited enough by what cards are available for the Mediator system, and to be limited even further by the rarer sound amd NIC cards is not a plus point for Classic OS4.1, yet you seem to be singing it's praises that it's cut off the majority of cards that the Mediator supported by using the DMA hack.

Not using a widely available soundcard which is what the ESS Solo-1 is, causes another problem for Mediator users as most opted for the more widely available Creative SB128 or similar models which are supported under the 68k Mediator PCI system drivers. So many users would have to hunt around on the internet to try to find one of these relatively obscure cards.

In my opinion that DMA hack (which by the way is only between PCI cards - not over Zorro and to the CPU card) is not required to make AmigaOS 4.1 Classic a nice functional upgrade for most Classic users who have PPC cards.

But you are forgetting that most Mediator users will have the cards that have been cut off by the Classic OS4.1 not supporting/allowing the 68k DMA hack.

So they, and I'm included in that bunch, am not very happy about losing those cards functionality, and I don't hear of any replacement Mediator PCI drivers for more up-to-date PCI cards being developed, not even after 3 years of hard development work, for Classic OS4.1 to supercede/replace drivers for those type of cards in the Mediator, or are there?

The out-of-the-box experience is *far superior* to AmigaOS 3.9 (and even 4.0 functionally) if you have a PPC card and a gfx card.

Of course, I cannot know if Classic OS4.1 is a "far superior" experience, UNLESS I am prepared to spend £100, and from what you've said still doesn't fill me with joy.

I'm still stinging from the Classic Amiga OS4.0 release which as I've said was the worst Amiga Workbench experience I have EVER had, and one that even now, 3-4 years after it's release, still is putting me off.

That's a lot to do with Hyperion's lack of support for Classic OS4.0, and the poor product that was released due to the initial incompatabilities, which should have been fixed, well before it was released - sign of a hurried product released to the market place, before thorough testing had been completed properly.

You don't even need a Mediator or Prometheus to be functional if you have Zorro equivalent cards.

Again, your presumably an A3000 or A4000 owner, and you've forgotten about those of us with an A1200 PPC card with no Zorro interface. That's why I got a Mediator as I can get a GFX card in it that way, and a soundcard, and a USB card, and a PCI SCSI card, and an ethernet PCI NIC - which I couldn't do as an A1200 is without a Zorro interface.

PS - just so you know, Hyperion worked with Elbox to properly support the Mediator in AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. We had questions, they answered them for us.  They also provided the included FastATA driver. OK, no DMA hack, but really, it's not needed.

No, the Mediator is NOT PROPERLY SUPPORTED, as under OS3.9 68k there are PCI cards that function very well, thank you very much, but don't under Classic OS4.1.

No of course the DMA hack is not needed, if you don't mind your original Mediator system to be laid bare/denuded by the lack of DMA hack support.

I don't agree with your polarized view of Classic OS4.1 and the lack of DMA support for the Mediator which has not been supported as it should be by the latest Classic Amiga OS4.1, and wasn't over 3 years ago when Classic OS4.0 was released.

So not much/any re-design has gone on in the OS to support the Mediator's functionality, even with consultation with Elbox. Someone is to blame for that, and it's a disgrace.

[Nearly-Right]

Yes, however, the Blizzard with 256MB physical ram capability lessens the need for any ZorRAM.  You could use a swap partition on a SATA hard disk if you need it.

So how much RAM does Classic OS4.1 NEED to run, as a minimum?

I would of course get a SATA PCI card & HDD if I decided to buy OS4.1.

Do you know if the Squirrel SCSI device is usable under Classic OS4.1? As that would be an option to swap some of the data I have from a SCSI HDD or ZIP drive to some other HDD if required.

Possibly getting a couple hundred KB more out of a NIC, ...but if that's a critical factor for you, ...

It's obviously not critical, BUT the fact that the faster RTL8139 device works under OS3.9 but hasn't been supported under OS4.1 means I'd have to try to source one of those cards instead of an RTL8139. Not a lot of outlay, but more cost when I feel with all the time that's been available to support it, namely 8+ years of 'development' you'd think, have hoped, that the situation would have been grasped, handled better and fixed.

No, but my local corner computer store had more than 10 in stock, brand new, for about $15 bucks each.  I bet they are still there, so at least for me it was easier to get that then to order one from an Amiga dealer.

But you just said, if I understand your reply correctly, that 'No' you don't know of an Amiga dealer that stocks that soundcard.

I checked with AmigaKit - the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 who don't have any soundcards shown on a search of their site, other than the Delfina soundcard, so that's my point. They are not readily available, even on ebay I only came across 1 listed.

So if the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 don't even have them stocked then where are all the people who want one of these soundcards going to get one from?

I know you say you've a local shop that has a few, but that won't supply the demands of many that may be required if sales of Classic OS4.1 take off, and it'd be only the lucky few betatesters, and one or two others who may already have, or are going to end up with this obscure soundcard to take advantage of it being usable in a Mediator with Classic OS4.1. The SOLO soundcard is obscure, and hard to get hold of, and there should have been a more readily available soundcard chosen to be usable with Classic OS4.1.

As I have stated in other threads, it is quite possible that work on the Blizzard PPC SCSI driver _may_ start after the BlizzardVision Warp3D driver.

That's more optimistic than I've heard before, BUT after having been abandoned by Hyperion after Classic OS4.0 I'm not so sure the Blizzard SCSI driver will get its required time spent on development that will lead to a working driver for the SCSI side of the PPC cards. I'd like to be optimistic, but I feel more pessimistic right now.

Which is another justifiable reason for the Adaptec PCI SCSI cards to be supported, which it isn't/won't due to the DMA issue.

It's not exactly easy to find someone to write this Blizzard SCSI Driver...trust me. ...luckily we have a developer who is willing to take a crack at it, but he's very busy at the moment. ... Luckily he is a nice guy and has agreed to help out, time permitting.

That gives me more optimism, but I'm not holding my breath.

It won't be done because it is a _hack_. It's ugly, it's messy, and it's not real DMA, and it doesn't DMA back to the system ... , so the developers aren't going to do it.  I'm sorry but I've personally asked about it and they won't do it.

Of course it's not real DMA, the A1200 was never designed for real DMA from the accelerator port for the kind of functionality the Mediator supplies, but it works well in conjunction with the cards it supports.

I appreciate you asking about supporting the DMA hack, and I'm just interested to know why you asked them about it?

You have to understand that resources are very limited.

OK, I think I already understood the cost side of things, limited budget and all that, but to have limited the latest Classic OS4.1 to an older/slower NIC, and a soundcard that is basic, and generally hard to come by was not a good choice.

Is the chipset that's on the SOLO soundcard supported, so that any soundcard with the same chipset can be used or is it that specific design of the ESS-SOLO-1 soundcard that is supported? Basically would a Terratec 512i Digital be supported, or a HitPoint FM801 soundcard be usable under OS4.1 or not?

If you want me to get you a Solo-1 I can, as I said, they have >10 in stock at my local computer shop.  Send me a private message if you want.

I'm not so sure about getting Classic OS4.1 as yet, so I'll hold off on that, but thanks for the offer.

Again be careful with your words, how do you know "Most" users will be cut off?

Mediator users with 68k systems, considering upgrading more than likely will have Creative soundcards, none of which work under OS4.1, and the Spider USB card is also not supported under OS4.1, and the RTL8139 NIC is also not supported, never mind the TV/FM or SCSI cards, so consider the likelihood of the number of Mediator users with one, or more, of those cards in their setups, and then consider how many users will be adversely affected - that will be MOST.

Maybe YOU will be cut off, because you don't own the supported hardware, but that hardware is still available and cheap to obtain.

Maybe I won't be cut off, as I won't be moving to Classic OS4.1 any time soon it seems.

I'm sorry your hardware isn't supported, ... Sorry those aren't the ones you own.

Who said I don't own those supported cards!

Look, I'm not trying to sell you AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.  I'm just trying to point out that it does support a limited set of PCI hardware because it's not possible for Hyperion to write drivers for all the PCI cards out there.  I'm sorry but that's the reality of the market.  We support functionality people will need based on a limited set of cards.

So if you're still waiting on a developer to work on supporting the Blizzard SCSI device then you/Hyperion know that SCSI is important, but Classic OS4.1 won't support the Adaptec PCI SCSI option it seems, or the other PCI cards that need the DMA hack.

I've never known of any problems with the DMA hack under 68k, and with Elbox most likely to still be able to provide new compatible code for the DMA system they use, it seems Hyperion are not supporting the Mediator as well as it could be.

If you think AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is not for you - then by all means do not buy it.

All I can say is myself and others have worked very hard to overcome many of the critical points against AmigaOS 4.0 Classic.

I agree there were many critical points against Classic OS4.0, but I never got an apology from anyone from Hyperion when I pointed its failings out. I was basically told that it was basically well received, which frankly I cannot believe, especially when you looked at the forums at the time it was released as many users had lots of problems with booting, crashing, etc. Yet there was, and still is, no support, FAQ on any of the websites associated with the release of OS4.0 for the Classic Amiga.

A lack of information as to specifics of what cards are supported, or if it just the chipset or a specific manufacturers model of a card that is supported, and all the more critical factors of what you can have attached to your Classic Amiga system when using OS4.1.

I have a HyperCOM clockport card in one of my A1200s and like using it, but I'm not sure if that would be usable under Classic OS4.1. Surely more information as to which 68k based drivers will work under Classic OS4.1 should be made available.

We had a limited timeline and limited budget.   We've done the best we can and I am proud of what we have accomplished - releasing a new OS for a 20 year old machines and 14 year old PPC accelerators is not easy.

I agree with your remark, and don't get me wrong I am aware a lot of work has been put in to complete Classic OS4.1, but it's a lot of money for people who bought Classic OS4.0, and got little out of it, like me, only to then be asked to part with £100 (approx) for a x.1 update.

The level of criticism there was about the shabby level of compatibility when Classic OS4.0 was initially released was, in my opinion, justified, and is at last being addressed in OS4.1, but to ask those people who paid out for a FULL/NEW version of an Amiga OS to stump up for another FULL payment for what is basically an update is not fair.

PS - I was NOT really involved with AmigaOS 4.0 Classic so I can't speak for that product.

What does "not really involved" actually mean then. Either you did a little, something more than that, OR you did nothing at all to help in the development of Classic OS4.0, but not really involved is not a definitive position, is it?

PPS - Even if the DMA hack worked, new drivers would still be required for ALL of the cards that you mention.  Elbox drivers are in 68k ASM and are not compatible with the PCI sub-system library interface of AmigaOS4.1 - they would all have to be entirely re-written.

Well, Elbox are still a viable company, have they been asked to supply, and offered support, to create new drivers in-line with the PCI sub-system library interface of OS4.1?

I t want you to know I'm appreciative of your time, and effort, because I am really grateful for your insights into Classic OS4.1.

[Nearly-Right]

I'm not sure about the Squirrel.  If the driver behaves the rules and doesn't make assumptions of hardware by peeking/poking  system structures then it could work.

Got your update from Carl Moppett that the squirrelscsi.device is OK with Classic 0S4.1, so that's a SCSI alternative for an A1200, as long as the PCMCIA port isn't being used for something else.

Well that card needs DMA so it won't work.  That is not going to change so you're just going to have to find a RTL8029 network card.  A 30 second google search brought one up for sale on ebay for $15 dollars:

I've already got one, as I needed one for Classic OS4.0 - not that it did me much good, or got much use on that OS 4.0 version.

I read your comments that the SOLO has to have the ESS 1969 chipset, but I just looked at a SOLO card on ebay, and it shows the chipset as ES1938S, so is this chipset also supported, as there is no information about only certain chipsets being viable under Classic OS4.1, just the fact that you have to have an ESS SOLO soundcard.

Please clarify the specifics of the chipset, as this seems to be a possible stumbling block.

Well I haven't looked, since there is ample supply 3 KM from my house at my local corner computer store.  Maybe it would make sense for AmigaKit or other dealers to stock that card.

Well that just shows how poorly prepared AmigaKit is for the Classic OS4.1 release.

Well Paula still works quite well - remember all the Classic Amigas have a good built-in sound chip which is supported both in 4.0 and 4.1.  If you have a good set of speakers Paula still sounds amazing.  In my machines I often use Paula still.  So a sound card is not absolutely required.

It's just as well it's not a pre-requisite, or there'd be loads of people buying Classic OS4.1 who'd not be able to use it, for the lack of a compatible soundcard.

Well my offer still stands if you need one.

Appreciated.

I would remind you that it is totally possible for anyone to write drivers.  The SDK is out there, there are several websites that help people with AmigaOS4 programming, and you can always E-mail Hyperion for support.   Hyperion can't write all the drivers.

But it's their OS, and it's in their interests to ensure there is a method for using more cards in the Mediator seeing as they are using it for part of their OS requirements. They should be pursuing this, especially as they have Elbox as one of their betatesters. They'd do well to get something worked out for us all between themselves, as they know what's required to solve this problem, and find a method of working around it. If they can't do it between themselves it's a pitiful state of affairs, and in any case should not require potential customers to have to badger a company that should already have been approached by the people writing the OS, don't you think?

Our Warp3D Permedia2 programmer is really great and he's spent ALOT of time on the driver.  he's just terribly busy at the moment so his first priority is to finish the permedia2 driver, then he can look into the blizzard PPC scsi driver.

Understood, thanks for the info.

I've been on the beta testing team since 2003, I directly asked Hyperion about adding the DMA hack and they won't.  If proper DMA was available it would work.  To my knowledge Elbox has not offered any source code to implment such a DMA hack, and it is in 68K asm anyway so not useful.

I still think Elbox, and Hyperion are the ones to resolve this situation, not customers. They both know of the problem, and it's really in both their interests to get it working, by whatever means they can, and not something for the customer to have to badger them about, as they are both in direct communication about working on the Classic OS4.1.

Since this is Elbox's hardware perhaps you should be asking them why they don't have more OS4 drivers for their hardware?  Just a thought, maybe it would help if the users demanded of Elbox more OS4.1 drivers.

See above remark

The list of PCI cards that can work with PIO is rather limited, so we basically had no choice.

If they have an ESS 1969 chip then it should work.

See my above remark, as there seem to be SOLO soundcards with different chipsets on them, so are all the chipsets on the SOLO cards supported, or only specific ones?

Well, up to you.  As I said it's not my job to sell it to you  I'm here for free technical support for registered users, really.

You've helped me with some decisions, unfortunately they have not persuaded me to take the plunge, but the information has been helpful, and may well be beneficial to others who do decide to buy Classic OS4.1.

Many thanks for your efforts, I only wish there was more of a public relationship performance from Hyperion than currently exists.

Well Hyperion is supporting proper DMA, which is something the Mediator lacks.  Elbox is free to develop OS4.1 drivers as well, as I've said.  In fact they did include a the FastATA driver with AmigaOS4.1 Classic.  Their resources are probably very limited as well, which is why you don't see more drivers from them.

I think Elbox know that true DMA is not possible from the Mediator, or they have not figured out a way to implement it, but I think it's basically nigh on impossible to achieve, which Hyperion know. The issue for me, that's upsetting, is who is the lack of DMA hurting .... the Amiga user who has a Mediator that would buy Classic OS4.1 if all the cards were allowed to work under OS4.1, as they do under OS3.9, but without this concession by Hyperion it is not going to happen. I don't think there is anything Elbox can do to implement something that is impossible to implement, without some concession by Hyperion.

I think the Boing ball is squarely in Hyperion's court, and they are keeping their hands tightly on their own Boing Ball.

If you look at the 4.0 compatibility list on Acube's site then add Radeon 9200 or 9250, the SATA PCI cards based on the Silicon Image 3112, 3114, and 3512, and the ESS Solo-1 based on the 1969 chipset, you basically have it.

And there you have it ... the websites that should be updating their websites with up-to-date information about Classic OS4.1 and have failed to update the compability list, and supported hardware list

Pricing and distribution are not decided from me.  But AmigaOS 4.1 is not just a .1 update.  It's far more than that.  It's all of 4.1's new features, plus 4.1 Update 1, Update 2, and all of the fixes we've made and specific things for the Classic, like the Radeon support, the Solo-1 support, the SATA support, memory paging support, the Warp3D Permedia2 driver, and further things planned specifically for Classic in Update 3, it's not even comparable to 4.0 Classic at all.

Yes but all those updates were designed for the ACube PPC hardware, and they have just had to be converted to Classic PPC cards, which really shouldn't have been that difficult, and I for one, feel that the cost is being driven by greed, not real hard work - that's the way it feels to me, rightly or wrongly.

Also, as I got such a bad experience from OS4.0, and I'm sure others had the same feeling, I think that Hyperion should be making it up to us all who paid for OS4.0, and got such a bad experience to somehow put it right by offering an update price, not a full version price bump.

We invested in an OS that didn't do what it set out to achieve, which is partly the reason for this release, which in many ways justifies my reasoning.

As I stated before, they assisted us to help with PCI configuration of the Mediator and they supplied the FastATA driver.  Certainly if they wanted to (or could) provide more they could/can.

As I've already said, I get the distinct impression that Elbox know there's no way to implement what Hyperion want in the way of TRUE DMA for the Mediator, and don't want to confess this to their customers who'd be disappointed to find out that's the case, and Hyperion are not about to say that either. So they're both tight lipped about the subject, so no way forward is being found, as there is no concession by Hyperion on a way to implement any form or an alternative form of DMA for the Mediator that can be used in Classic OS4.1.

Thank you, and thanks for asking the questions.  I'm just trying to defend the product, obviously, since I know it so well and worked on it so long, but ultimately it is up to you if you buy it or not.

I understand your position, but a variation on the DMA hack that is agreeable to all would be a better solution, rather than the lack of any DMA. Someone needs a kick up the backside, and it isn't you or me.

[Nearly-Right]

I just asked the developer and he said the ESS 1938, 1946 and 1969 *should* work.  If not we probably just have to add the Device / vendor ID.  Which we can do.

Well has the ESS chipsets 1938 & 1946 SOLO cards been tested to see if they work with Classic OS 4.1?

I mean, how can this Classic OS 4.1 be released with the announcement that the SOLO card is supported, when just one of the chipsets is supported without being more specific.

More testing should have been done, or more specific information should have been released before the announcement that the SOLO soundcard works with Classic OS4.1, I mean it's just misleading, yet again.

The only card tested currently is the one with the 1969 chipset.  I don't have any of the other cards nor does anyone else on the beta/developer team.  But since those chips are in the same family it should work providing we have the device / vendor ID's.  So if you have such a card and it's recognized on the PCI bus, but not working with AHI use the Ranger utility to get the vendor / device ID and I'll pass the info to the developer and we'll update it.

Still waiting for the update?

There does not seem to be much going on with Classic OS4.1, and there seems to be little information being divluged by people who might have bought Classic OS4.1 prepared to sing it's praises, which in itself is not inspiring.

Great !! AmigaKit have got RTL8029AS NIC PCI cards, but what about the 'supported' SOLO cards, and the 'supported' SATA cards?

After all, those who want to add the latest features of Classic OS4.1 will also need the hardware to be able to use it. Seems we've been waiting a good while for Classic OS4.1, and in all that time the main stockist of the software doesn't/hasn't even thought through, or acquired the hardware to sell to people who'd be interested in supporting the OS by buying it. It's all a mess, that should have been avoided by better planning.

Any comment AmigaKit?

[Nearly-Right]

lots going on but just not in the Amiga.org forum.

Pity the information isn't at some central point that is directly connected to Hyperion or the software distributors, but you should take a LOT of credit for all the help you are handing out, which is very welcome, but frankly it's a disgrace of Hyperion and AmigaKit.

Expect further announcements from Hyperion.

But when and on whose website? It's all dragging on longer that it should. An important OS release should have been better prepared and complete than the current lacklustre situation we find ourselves in, IMHO.

I have a report from one user that his ESS Solo-1 card with the 1938 chipset is working.

That is more reassuring, but has that person supplied the specific card manufacturer, and model of the card that works with the 1938 chipset under Classic OS4.1, so we can all know which card is definitely OK to use with Classic OS4.1, and can consider buying it if we come across one the same?

I have two different cards here with the 1969 chipset - both working.   BUT - as for the Solo-1 cards, and other PCI cards, such as the Radeon cards,  there are 100's of variants of these cards out there and there is no possible way for us to support or test all of them.

OK, I suppose that's true, but the ones that are reported as working, all the relevant information about that card should be made available for us all to be aware that's it is compatible with Classic OS4.1. Will you ensure this gets done? I suppose the update would be updated on your website, which is very helpful, but there's room for a little more specific information as I've mentioned.

I'm afraid you'll just have to purchase a card that is on the hardware compatibility list (which is on my website), and even then, unless you purchase the exact card that was tested, it may not work.

But that's my point so far, some of the information you've just mentioned to me, such as the SOLO 1938 chipset soundcard is not on your website, so that needs updating, once it's confirmed it does work correctly, and any specific changes/modification that are needed to any system file to get it to work OK.

Since AmigaKit is now starting to stock compatible cards, that is probably the best place to look.

Yes but there is still no mention of compatible soundcards, or SATA cards being stocked.

http://www.hd-zone.com is my site with an unofficial hardware compatibility list.

Seen your site, it's a great help, but it needs a little more up-to-date information on there, but frankly it should not have to be you doing it, the impetus, and responsibility should be Hyperion's and AmigaKit's, but I for one am really grateful for you going to all this trouble to help those of us interested and still considering hopefully the benefits of purchasing Classic OS4.1, but I need some more convincing as yet.

The feature about the Soundblaster 128 soundcard being used to channel the sound was novel, but should be fully supported by the Classic OS 4.1 AHI system. It's a terrible shame that it's not, as those cards are much better at what they do, and much easier to come by as a second hand soundcard.

[Nearly-Right]

@Nearly-Right

If I were a gambling man (which I'm not, but let's pretend otherwise), I would wager you wouldn't buy OS4.1 for classic if it came with hand-tested-by-Darren-himself-and-guaranteed-compatible expansions and personally installed by Carl Moppet all at no extra charge

I would seriously consider buying it if I could trust it did all 'it was supposed to do on the tin'.

Frankly, I don't know how Hyperion have the cheek to ask Classic OS4.0 users to dip again into their bank accounts, and ask for another £100 (approx) for a virtually repeat product, never mind what's been added, as that seems to be basically what was put in for the ACube boards, etc, so just had to be modified for Classic hardware, that they got wrong the first time around, and haven't been prepared to be fair and offer an upgrade price to those users who got a very poor, barely working product, which they ditched soon after it was released.

Don't point any blame at me, the release information is flawed, they say the SOLO soundcard works, that's after it's been 'thoroughly tested' and 'developed' for about 3 years and within a week or 2 of it's release the first Amiga guinea-pig puts a question forward about a SOLO card, that reveals the card's not working as it's got a different ESS chip in it than the testers have been using.

Talk about poor betatesting, and poor release information. It's a commercial product, and should have been tested with all the chipsets those cards were released with before such a statement was made. At this moment it is 'not fit for purpose', and until it is I won't be handing over my £100 (approx).

I'll need to see some buyer's reviews of the Classic OS4.1 and how easy it is to use/install, and the benefits, if any over OS3.9, as I consider that trying to install, and get Classic OS4.0 on my A1200 BPPC was punishment enough. So specifically I'd like to see information for an A1200 BPPC system, as I've only seen any Classic OS4.1 buyer's information being installed on A4000s, and not on a similar system to mine.

First you complain there is no decent information on supported expansions. Then a compiled list is provided. Then you complain it's not "official", which fair enough, it isn't, but the guy providing it has been testing 4.1 classic since day zero, so it is as good as you would get from any of the developers.

As I don't have access to the betatesters list how am I supposed to know he's been testing the OS4.1 for Classic systems for those 3 years until you said so?

But as I've just said, the information released shows that the SOLO ESS soundcard, which was supposed to work under OS4.0, now is also shown to have problems under Classic OS4.1, as they didn't check more than one particular chipset of the SOLO cards that were released. They have only released this one (SOLO - as in ONLY) supported soundcard for use with Classic OS4.1 and they haven't done their homework/betatesting properly on just the one soundcard they are prepared to support - in 3 years of development!

Please, stop whining at me, and whine at the people who brought you yet another under-tested product that they want your money for. Let's be reasonable, if you bought such a product in the High Street you'd be back at the retailer demanding your money back in similar circumstances.

Then you complain that some of the available information is ambiguous and needs further clarification, which he goes off to try and find out about.

I left the chipset highlighted problem for a few days, for some reply to say it had been fixed/resolved, but I didn't get a reply, or see a reply to that problem in this thread, so a very good, and fair, reason to ask if it's been done, as this seems to be the only place that anyone is listening to questions, and replying to them, about the problems that are surfacing with installing and using Classic OS4.1.

No matter what the guy writes or how much he goes out of his way to answer your questions, your posts fall back onto everything being a disgrace, taking too long etc. and for all the overtures to applauding his effort, you just end up back at square one. I'm personally waiting for the Elbox intra-card DMA issue to resurface as soon as you get bored of making Darren run around answering your questions.

As you've already commented I've thanked Darren for his efforts, but releasing a commercial product after such a long development, with initial flaws like these, smacks of an undeveloped testing regime, or they'd have been better/fully aware of what will and won't work with the Classic OS4.1.

Let's be totally open and honest here. You got your fingers burnt with 4.0 classic

Yes that's true,

and there's no way you are going to buy 4.1 classic on principal.

That's not true.

I totally get it, it's not as if you are the only person that feels that way. However, for anybody else, 4.1 classic is available, supports more hardware than 4.0 classic did and a growing list of confirmed working expansions exists, officially sanctioned or not, the information is available and improving for anybody contemplating it.

If I am to seriously consider buying a product I like to be happy to part with my money, in the knowledge, and reasonably enough with confidence, it will do what I expect it to do, from what I have been told it will do, but so far Classic OS4.1 doesn't. It falls far short of those expectations, and until it meets them it will be a product I cannot trust, especially compared to OS3.9, which offers features I'd like to have in OS4.1 but as yet haven't appeared.

I am grateful for all the information that Darren has updated, and continues to release, but so far it is not enough to comvince me, and I suspect a good few others.

When the Classic OS4.1 was released there was no mention in the release information which SATA cards were supported, such as which cards/chipsets were compatible/tested. The information about the SOLO soundcards I've already commented on as that should have been tested properly, and wasn't it seems, and there is nothing less than a 'gulity as charged' acceptable in those circumstances.

You are pointing the finger at me for being critical of a repeat Classic OS4.x that again is flawed, when every effort should have been made by everyone involved in its testing to get it right this time, or don't you think Hyperion and the betatester team owe that to any intended purchaser(s)?

All this is measured against the fact that Hyperion want us to pay more than you'd pay for a Windows OS, which offers so many more features, and does actually deliver 'what it says on the tin', I'm sorry to have to say.

[Nearly-Right]

@Nearly-Right

For whats its worth I personally felt OS4.0 for classic should have had some more updates. Some beta testers were running hybrid 4.0 / 4.1 beta installs.

Thanks for that, nice to hear it as a developer's opinion, and I'm sure a lot of other people who bought Classic OS4.0 think the same, and maybe that's the main reason many owners of PPC boards are reluctant to purchase Classic OS4.1, as that is certainly one of mine. The upgrade option should be pursued, and Hyperion should relent on that front, as it is only fair. I wouldn't mind paying 50-60% of the current asking price, but full price is a bit extreme, IMHO.

So in June 2009 I decided I would volenteer to update the distribution. This was before update one was released for the AmigaOne, SAM and PEG2. The very first ISO was created by myself in ~June 2009 and was a 4.0 hybrid with a few items taken from the AmigaOne 4.1 CD as a proof of concept nothing more.

In theory OS4.1 classic could have been released with an update1 baseline at roughly the same time as the other platforms, but it just wasn't mature enough and hadn't had enough of a testing cycle.

After ~2 years of working on this in our spare time and bugging developers to the point that they have probably taken us of their christmas card list it got to the point where it could be released with an update 2 baseline and utilitise the current driver base bar a few exceptions namely the drivers which use DMA.

I see, but as you were offering to update the OS4.0 software, almost for free, it seems, Hyperion should have been far more accomodating, and helpful, and not in the least reluctant for your help, IMHO.

Its not been abbandoned. The distribution iso is activly maintained now by myself, and is on par with the other platforms.
We ares still working hard raising bugs accross all the platforms and bugging the developers (excuse the pun). The classic will benefit from the developments being made to the A1, SAM, PEG2 and potentially future platforms.

That is very reassuring, but is it likely that more hardware is going to be supported directly in the Mediator?

Particularly the USB side of things, as that is a major drawback if you don't have a Subway in an A1200, or another type of USB card in any of the big-box Amigas, as there is no USB2 possible for the Classic A1200 without owning the Spider card at this time, and the other main OS's have USB3 at the very least thesedays.

Is there no-one who can/will write the USB sub-system that will allow the Sirion stack to utilise a generic/specific chipset from a readily available PCI USB card in the computing marketplace to function for Classic OS4.1?

Dont ask me about time scales / release dates thats for management to decided and comment on but update 3 will be on the classic.

If you have any A1200 specific questions about OS4.1 Classic, I'll do my best to answer them.

Again, that's good news, but do you have the A1200 BPPC running OS4.1?

Have you done a clean install of it yourself onto a HDD to give some information as to the ease of the install, problems to watch out for, any hardware from the 68k/OS3.x side of things that will affect the functionality of it, or just lock-up the hardware, and won't work until it's removed, such as the Subway driver has to use the Sirion driver I believe, but any other hardware that causes known conflicts?

What 68k OS3.x programs are you aware of that will definitely run on Classic OS4.1?

Will there be Mediator PCI SCSI support under Classic OS4.1, as I use my SCSI scanner a lot, and I don't want to be having a dual boot system, with all the problems that it may cause. I am told the Squirrel SCSI can be used with Classic OS4.1, and as the Blizzard SCSI is not available under Classic OS4.1 this is a real drawback for me. Any hope you can give, such as any contact you have had, or contact you might consider to get Darren Stevens persuaded/helped to get his Mediator SCSI driver adapted to Classic OS4.1 would be a start? It's not a bootable SCSI system as yet, well not under OS3.x it isn't.

Thanks for your reply, it's been better to understand some of the background to why Classic OS4.1 has seen the light of day, and I for one am PROUD of you for going to all the trouble for all of the remaining Amiga devotees.

I have been thought of, in this thread, as being one of those people who is just slamming the development for the sake of it, but I am not. I want Classic OS4.1 to be viable for me, and for others. I know it's been done basically on a shoestring but please support the more serious side of Amiga computing, and not just the gaming side of things. I saw the Quake demo, but I'd much rather see the PageStream, ImageFX, and Scanquix side of things than games, but maybe that's just me.

[Nearly-Right]

Firstly I'm not one of the developers but just one of the OS4 Beta testers like Darren and Karlos

OK, understood, but you'd obviously got the interest, that Hyperion lost after they released Classic OS4.0, and still have, which is good for us all, so big thanks to you, and the others who pursued the idea like you.

There are lots of things as an Amiga user I'd like to see supported in the Mediator. But thats down to the development team.

Is the DMA 'hack' driver possible to re-write so that it would be Classic OS4.1 legal?

I've sent messages to Elbox about the DMA pronlem with the Mediator, but had no response, but then, I know that they are on the betatesters list so surely they can be approached directly by yourselves to get them to implement it, if it is possible to do so, as it's a feature definitely worth having. I believe the code is in ASM at the moment, but I would have hoped they still know how it works, and change the code to system legal code to re-implement it, if it's possible to do so.

At this time on the A1200 USB is limited to:-

Desktop PPC A1200 (No Expansion Bus) - Subway on Clockport / Poseidon 4.4
Tower PPC A1200 Zorro2 - Deneb in Zorro2 slot / Poseidon 4.4

A native Deneb driver was mentioned in the press release but this would only be benifical to PPC Amigas with Zorro slots.

The Subway card would cause me to remove my HyperCOM parallel/serial card that I use extensively, unless a 4 way clockport add-on card is supported under Classic OS4.1, so I need to know if a 4-way clockport card has been successfully betatested during development?

I take it we are basically talking about the Micronik A1200 Zorro board for using a DENEB card in an A1200, is that correct? If so, that board does not support PCI slots so you'd lose out on PCI hardware, in particular the GFX card enhancement which I consider is a major feature of Classic OS4.1, wouldn't you agree? If so, that Zorro option, for me, would have to be avoided to allow the access for the more important PCI slots in the Mediator.

I have a Mediator TX, so do you have that model, 6 PCI slots?

It would require implementing Elbox's DMA Hack into the kernel as PCI EHCI cards require DMA and don't work in PIO mode AFAIK.

I think you are correct there, from the little I know, and have been told. The DMA 'hack' would be really beneficial as it would allow lots of other cards to be added back to the Mediator slots in due course, but as far as I know Hyperion are dead against it, unless you and the other betatesters feel it should be supported, I know I do already, but if you can also convince Hyperion of its worthiness.

Yes in various config I also move my ppc to the Z2 machine when needed. See Sig :-)

Seen it, and glad you have a few assorted setups. I offered my services for the betatesting, but was not 'honoured' with being able to help out.

Hundreds and Hundreds. I had the job of creating the installer and putting the iso together.
It was made on an A1200

I didn't know that, I got the distinct feeling that it was created on an A4000, as the A4000 seems to be more enhanced for Classic OS4.1, but that's a pleasant surprise.

The install is a breeze.

Firstly the bootfloppy load residents a new 68K scsi.device and then mounts CDfilesystem and then boots the OS4.1 kickstart modules off the CD.
The Amiga then soft reset and is running on the PPC as with OS4.0.

So is the FastATA device automatically found and used as a native scsi/ide device?

If you have replaced your floppy drive with a HxC2000 floppy emulator don't worry because there is an adf of the boot floppy on the CD to use with those SDCard based emulators.

I've not, but wasn't aware that feature existed, so thanks for that nugget.

If you have removed your floppy you can boot into 3.x and start the install from there.

A lot of work has gone into the installer as it support AGA, Zorro and PCI solutions.

If your running on a mediator with a pci voodoo / Radeon the installer will open on 1024x768.

Zorro2 installer opens on a 800x600 screen for legacy z2 cards.

AGA opens on a PAL or NTSC screen depending on your base 1200.

I wasn't aware of all that. Is all this mentioned in the OS4.1 Installation booklet?

What other info is in the booklet?

Classic OS4.0 Quick Installation guide did not give enough info to people coming into OS4.0 'cold' like I was, as kicklayouts, etc are all new, and I for one would like to know what goes where, and what affects what.

The OS4.0 Quick Installation booklet didn't give any details about the different colour error screens, nor has it since to my satisfaction, so are you in a position to give some insight into that part of the OS?

Is the 'S' directory still used, and are the kicklayout files in there, and are they editable, and what precautions are there if you mess up editing it, and can you start Classic OS4.1 with just a shell prompt, or is it far too complex to do that?

My OS4.0 got so messed up, that I never got back into it or the OS itself loaded after one successful boot into an AGA bootscreen, and then I changed it for Picasso RTG and then I just got constant reboot/error screen, and so gave up, it was all messed up, so even after 4 years of waiting for this upgrade I am still a novice with Classic OS4.x, as maybe many people who bought OS4.0 are.

BVision / Cvision is a special case too.
CVision / Bvision in PPC cards flashed with the GREX firmware are not autodetectable so the installer will use its fall back AGA mode.
 
Obviously AGA installer is used if there is no graphics card.

As for removing hardware. You can keep the subway in you don't need to disable anything as only the highway is supported by sirion on classics.
You can keep your squirelscsi in that doesn't interfere with the install.
You can keep your IDEFix-Express in that doesn't interfere either.
MK3 powerflyer is supported by a new driver supplied by Elbox

That all sounds fairly straightforward, and some it defintiely applies to my hardware.

As for Z2 I have a Multiface3, DENEB, XSURF3CC, CV643D squirrel scsi and none of that  needs to be removed on that for the install.

I see no Radeon in your system there, but is the Radeon GFX card memory still able to be added to the system RAM from the Mediator PCI library under Classic OS4.1?

Weve put together a large FAQ that covers all the things that came up during testing its included with CD. There is also a 28 Page Manual covering the install procedure and the FAQ is 16 Pages.

Are all my above questions included in that FAQ or in the Installation booklet, such as the Squirrel SCSI, tested software list, and any known incompatibilites, etc.?

I understood that the FAQ was going to be uploaded to the Hyperion Blog pages before Classic OS4.1 was released, to provide people interested in buying it to make an informed decision about upgrading, but I haven't seen anything of that nature uploaded there. Will it be uploaded there soon?

A lot of which is on the hyperion blog at hyperion-etertainment.biz

The ones I still use off the top of my head:-

FinalWriter 5 / 97
MakeCD 3.2
TVPaint
PPaint 8
Photogenics 4.4
IBrowse 2.4
Term 4.8
Ftpd
TurboCalc
CodeAudio

OK, I've asked about a few more, so I'll wait a few days for your report on whether they are compatible or not, hopefully they will be.

But have migrated to OS4.X equivalents for most other things like pic viewers, mp3 players

Only natural you would, so you can test them, and also if you're happy with Classic OS4.1. Would you say you were happy with it as it is?

What else would you like to see included, particularly that would benefit the Mediator for Classic OS4.1?

Dual boot is easy you just need two partitions under the first 4GB on your harddrive
For example DH0 and DH1

OS 4.1 on DH0 and OS3.X on DH1, make them both bootable one with a higher boot priority than the other. Your Amiga will boot from the partition with the highest boot priority. Just swap the priorities around in hdtoolbox or mediatoolbox and save then reboot.
Just make sure that the 68K l:fastfilesystem and l:smartfilesystem are in the RDB on your HD. The ones from l: not the ppc ones from kickstart

How do you put them in your RDB? Are you talking about during initialisation and formatting the drive with fastfilesystem or smartfilesystem, or some other method of putting the files in the RDB?

I have mounted a CDROM with the squirrel, but have not SCSI HD to test a HD.
I have also added the device to the kicklayout as a default kickstartmodule and the system booted ok.

I'd still like a small tutorial on the kickstart and kicklayout modules and other system boot files, and how they affect the system booting, either here in this thread or in the FAQ that should be available on the Hyperion Blog, or upload it here if that's OK.

[Nearly-Right]

With regards to the BlizzPPC.device I read that Karlos might pick this up after he's finished updating warp3D.

As for the SCSI in the mediator Amiga OS4.1 has an LSI scsi driver already but again it would require implementing Elbox's DMA hack as its DMA based.

Well that's a possible deal breaker unless the DMA 'hack' can be resolved. I need SCSI access to my scanner, and some HDD files, and SCSI DVD drives, so I think you and the team should pester Elbox more directly than I am able to do. It is obviously needed, but will they do it, or can they do it, or will they allow someone else to do it, or does the Classic OS4.1 need modifying to allow it to function? I really hope this problem can be resolved, as the Mediator offers so much more potentiial for the Classic systems if PCI hardware & drivers can be made functional under Classic OS4.1.

No Problem. Its a team effort.

You say that, and as I trust Darren, I also believe you mean it, which can't be said for all at Hyperion in my experience, I am really sorry to have to say.

I'll get back to you on Pagestream I have V3 and V2 ImageFX. I'll also try my Epson SCSI scanner with the squirrel scsi and report back. Give me a few day. V busy at the mo.

Many thanks for your efforts, and I'm feeling a lot more optimistic thanks to you and Darren so far. I haven't had much input from others, but I know Karl(OS) is also busy, so thanks for all you're doing as well Karl.

Few 68K apps shown running here:-

http://www.amibay.com/showpost.php?p=171132&postcount=149

Had a look at them, and was that Photogenics also running somewhere in there?

[Nearly-Right]

@Nearly-Right

OK small update based on some quick tests for you

I can scan on my EPSON GT7000 scsi scanner using a Hisoft PCMCIA squirrel.

OK, I have the very same scanner, and a Squirrel SCSI, so that's good, for a start

Betascan

Never really liked Betascan, as I always preferred Scanquix. I know the person who has the source files to Scanquix, and he is still a betatester for OS4.x, as far as I know.

Would access to the source help to track down why it's generating the errors, and then fix the program or the library?

I hope it wouldn't be much of a problem fixing it.

You need to add squirrelscsi.device, betascan and the epson scanner driver to JIT Blacklist in compatibility prefs. The Betascan espon scanner driver will DSI on first use, as its buggy, but you can choose to ignore the DSI error in Grim Reaper and you can start scanning.

OK, so please explain the acronym 'DSI', don't forget you've been using Classic OS4.x for sometime, wheras my Classic OS4.0 got itself banjaxed and I'm trying to come to terms with the new terms for Classic OS4.x as I go along

Scanquix

Always been good for me on OS3.x, but please go on

The config Scanner application crashes under OS4.1 but the scanner program works as long as you add GTLayout libs to the blacklist in compatability prefs.

OK, I think that's understandable, so it maybe just the GTLayout library that's where the trouble is for Classic OS4.1?

I Imagine if you can set it up under 3.x there is no need to run the config utility under 4.1 as the config file will be valid.

But if you need to change the settings again then you're going to have to use OS3.9 to be able to modify the prefs file, unless it's a simple matter of changing the logical layout of a text file or tooltype, but I'm not sure how it works, but that may be possible. So I'll have a look at the Scanquix prefs under OS3.x and see if it is.

I'd much prefer to be able to modify any of the settings of Scanquix under OS4.1 if I needed to, so getting the config/prefs sorted out to work under OS4.1 would definitely be a good thing, well for me at least.

FXScan (68K/WarpOS)

Works but you get the DSI if you choose the use the Betascan drivers. Again Ignore the DSI and away you go.
I managed to make a photocopy to a HP LaserJet 1100

I've got FXScan 3 and 4, but I prefer Scanquix for most of my scanning as the GUI, and keystrokes, etc. are just so much easier to use, in fact the whole program is better, unless you want to do OCR scanning, which you can't do with Scanquix anyway, as you'll know.

ImageFX2

Sucessfully opened on a AGA screen I swapped it ro CV643D 1024x768 screen and then quit OK

I've got ImageFX 2, and 3 and 4.5, and the versions in between each full version so that's good news, though I usually use IFX v4.0 most of the time.

One thing I am a little annoyed about with Classic OS4.1 is that there does not appear to have been any work done to support more modern printers under the OS, which really is a poor situation. Will Turboprint (any version) work under OS4.1?

Thanks for the interim update, and can't wait for more info from you on the subject, thanks.

I was looking on EAB and saw one new user for Classic OS4.1 have trouble starting his system with the Fast ATA card installed, and had to go to the trouble of fitting a 4xIDE interface to get his PPC system to boot-up. Is that situation a regular problem? I have a Fast ATA Mk3 in my machine, and the release info states that it runs as a native Classic OS4.1 driver, so why isn't it working in that person's machine, which it seems to work for them under OS3.9?

[Nearly-Right]

Data Storage Interrupt. In short, an illegal access to a given address (basically an 80000003 guru).

OK, I understand what DSI means, thanks Karl-OS

Sometimes these are harmless read accesses (still to be indicative of serious bugs that need fixing) that can be ignored by clicking "ignore DSI errors" when the Grim Reaper pops up.

Like the yellow bordered 'click left mouse to continue' warnings that often related to graphics library or other recoverable errors under 68k.

Bad applications may also generate ISI, when you get the same sort of illegal access made by an instruction fetch. This is usually non recoverable.

So what does the acronym 'ISI' stand for?

[Nearly-Right]

Take a guess:

OK, my guess, Instructed Statement Innuendo

or could it be Instruction Storage Interrupt?

Either way, it would be much easier for you to use words in conjunction with the acronym, for the terminology rather than just the abbreviation/acronym as there has got to be more than just me that's unfamiliar with OS4.x's operating terminology.

No, not quite. AmigaOS recoverable alerts (the yellow ones) are usually caused by a sanity check failing, rather than an illegal access to memory.

OK, I think I understand that one.