AmigaOS News from AmiWest

[Nearly-Right]

This report is a summary of what was conveyed to the public at the AmiWest 2010 show. This information is direct from Hyperion Entertainment and its partners.

AmigaOS 4.1 for classic Amiga systems with PPC accelerators has been announced. This includes AmigaOS 4.1 Update 2 plus support for Radeon graphics cards via an x86 emulator to initialize them.

That's great news, BUT hold on a second, to be able to use a Radeon card with a Classic Amiga requires a Mediator card - which I have - and a PPC card - which I also have.

So, the stumbling block for me might be that Hyperion, and by that I mean the programmers, might not be prepared to spend the time to work out how to adapt some hardware, and support the A1200 Mediator or even the A4000 Mediator properly - which they failed to do before, with the OS4.0 release for the Classic machines. Let's not forget that expensive shambles.

Hyperion/Acube seemed on the initial OS4.0 release to have spent a good while working on the SAM, and well, a bit of time on the A4000 PPC systems, but when it had come to the A1200 Mediator users, which I believe there are more of, they had just about supported the Voodoo cards, and eventually the RTL8029 chipset LAN cards, but just about everything else that was plugged into the PCI slots of the Mediator was useless, and that has not changed, even as of this date. Those who have a compatible Mediator and an 040 or 060/PPC card to use a Radeon card, can't even have a PCI Soundblaster soundcard or PCI USB or PCI SCSI card, or more up to date NIC, working in it under OS4.0, not even running the drivers under 68k emulation on OS4.0. Well I've had no success.

It was a disgrace, it is still a disgrace, to have released an Amiga OS with so many incompatibilities, and limitations. In fact, it is the only Amiga OS I can remember that has gone so very badly, and not been fixed properly, and then to rub salt in the wounds, just abandoned. I parted with my cash for the Classic OS4.0, hoping for some support only to get a half-baked "fix" a few months later, and then ditched.

But wait a second, did I hear that correctly, .... the biggest seller of all Amiga OS4.x sales has been the Classic Amiga OS4.0 which has outsold all the other OS4.1 sales, if I understood Ben Hermans correctly, from what he said at AmiWest. So now they are re-thinking OS4.1 for the Classic machines. Well about time, but a bit late to be realising a loss of sales, and having dropped the Classic Amigas from their OS dining table. So why, after they dumped the Classic users should the Classic users be prepared to trust Hyperion to deliver a mature OS for their now intended Classic hardware, which they so abyssmally did last time around?

When I spoke to Hans Joerg Frieden, soon after OS4.0 Classic was released, I asked him why there was such a lack of support for A1200 Classic OS4, and he replied that he strongly opposed the notion that A1200 support was poor. I also got told by him that he would not support Elbox's method/solution of DMA for OS4 for the A1200. He said that the Mediator is as obscure as a piece of hardware you can get.!! He was most emphatic about that. He also said to me that they would not support the "tricks" and "hacks" that made the Mediator work under OS3.9. He actually said he knew how the Mediator worked, BUT he just refused to allow such monstrosities (A1200 MEDIATOR DMA) on OS4.0. After I asked him if he felt that he/Hyperion had let the A1200 users down with the lacklustre/incomplete/incompatible/flawed OS4 for Classic A1200 users, considering there had been such a long wait for its release, he said he thought it was not a flawed release, and that I should ask ACube for a refund if I thought it necessary, and not to trouble him with pointing out hardware that did not work with the Mediator, but to ask them to update the compatibility list as they were supposed to be providing support for the OS4.0 Classic release. He has never replied to any other question I asked of him after that.

So considering all that, why would we be any better of with this latest offer of OS4.1 for Classic PPC/Mediator users?

For the considerable number of A1200 users out there with a PPC accelerator, and a compatible Mediator board, don't Hyperion, and by that I mean the Friedens, think they ought to support as fully as they can all the cards that can be plugged into a Mediator system, never mind what they call hacks. The A4000 supports DMA as standard, but the A1200 has to be "hacked" via the Mediator system to get it to do something like DMA. Anyway, Hyperion haven't even implemented memory protection for OS4.x anyway and they are now on OS4.1 update 2, as far as I am aware. As long as the "hacky" DMA could be supported, which is all it would take, as far as I am aware, then it could be made to work. It was/is just that he/they (Friedens/Hyperion) don't like the way it works.

I personally don't care if the method of DMA is elegant, or if it's a monster, if Elbox can get it to work OK under OS3.9, then why can't it be supported under OS4.0 and OS4.1? After all it's the Amiga operating system, and no-one outside the Amiga Operating System/Workbench users cares what we do in Amiga-land, so let's just support what we can, and get as many people to use OS4.1 as possible, by supporting what hardware we can. Is that too much to ask for?

I feel that if DMA cannot be allowed/achieved in the A1200 Mediator boards then I think that OS4.1 for Classic A1200 users is realistically a non-starter, doomed, with no hope of success. There are a lot less A4000 users with PPC boards so OS4.1 for Classics would be basically halved if that happens.

I'd like to be able to offer my support to OS4.1 for the Classic systems, but that would have to include A1200 systems, and not just the A4000 users with real DMA and PPC and Radeon graphics cards, but ALL the cards that can be supported in any PPC driven Mediator, and I'd like to think that a few more cards can be added to the list of supported PCI cards than at present. I know there's a ßeta SCSI card device for the Mediator, which needs proper encouragement and support, but other cards such as Digital TV PCI cards, and newer or the existing Spider PCI USB cards that can directly utilise the Sirion USB stack under OS4.x.

If OS4.1 Classic ever sees the light of day, I'd like to know if there will be a discount for Classic OS4.0 users who want to upgrade to OS4.1, seeing as it's been a virtually unused/unusable OS?

Can I trust Hyperion to deliver a useable OS for Classic PPC/PCI hardware? Can you trust Hyperion? Will we ever see the Shark PPC card, or another replacement PPC/RAM card for the Mediator?

There is also direct support for ZorRAM and you will be able to use multiple ZorRAM boards up to the theoretical limit.

So where does that leave A1200 users? No Zorro slot for additional RAM in a Mediator, no Zorro slot on the mainboard either, seems all the talk is about the A4000 guys/girls again.

This is not some stripped down version of AmigaOS. You can expect all the advanced features like virtual memory, memory swapping and hardware accelerated graphics to be there. The target for product availability is before the end of 2010. AmigaOS 4.1 for classic systems will be distributed exclusively by AmigaKit. Pricing details are not yet available.

But will it all be another money pit?

[Nearly-Right]

Yes it's all very well being able to boast of a much faster DMA system, BUT the A1200 only has this DMA hack due to the Mediator, and it is only way the Radeon cards can be supported, ... via a Mediator in an A4000 or A1200.

I can't say I've ever sat there twiddling my thumbs waiting for the memory/system to react. It usually works efficiently and silently, unnoticed in the background, though I don't ever do a CPU RAM check to see what is being used where and when, and how fast it is being used, etc., but it seems OK for my needs. I also have never noticed anyone on the Mediator forum ever state they have been waiting for the RAM/CPU to catch up with a task, seeing as you are making out that it is so slow, as it just isn't a noticeable problem IMHO.

However, if there was a new PPC PCI card with the facility for even more RAM via the PCI bus then that might change the whole situation a lot.

That is, unless you'd be able to design another method of realising DMA on an A1200?

I've got 256MB on my PPC/060 card, and if Elbox come good with the Radeon RAM hack then I should be able to get over 450MB of RAM on my A1200 Mediator system, but the hack for the A1200 has not as yet been released by Elbox, but it has for the A4000.

Hyperion, Ben Hermans, stated at AmiWest that OS4.0 for Classics was their BIGGEST SELLER, so that leaves all the other Amiga new hardware, AS THE MINORITY.

My main point is ... if Hyperion (Hans Joerg Frieden) was so set against supporting the Mediator for the A4000 and A1200 fully for OS4.0, then what is the point of them having another stab at it, without FULLY supporting the Mediator for the A4000, AND the A1200 Mediator?

Why are they going to all the bother of working on the BIOS for the x86 Radeon cards for use in a Classic Amiga?

Seems a lot of work, as they'd need more than just the A4000 users with old PPC cards to be tied into OS4.1 for the Classic machines to make it worth their while I'd have thought.

I fully see your point, and I see HJFs point, but if it can be made to work then why not? The Classic hardware is what the Classic hardware is, and if they are going to do OS4.1 justice then they should work to get more features enabled/functioning via the Mediator cards, unlike the debacle of OS4.0 for the Classic Amigas.

I personally am most upset, and find it difficult to now be able to trust Hyperion's and HJF's statements, as it is mainly the fact that HJF decided he would not allow DMA on the A1200 Mediator to be worked into OS4.0 though it sounds like it could be.

Your hardware is no longer available to buy new, neither is my setup, but if Hyperion want to offer OS4.1 for the Classic, as it was such a big seller - and useless to boot (no pun intended),  then surely they should be encouraged to offer the best they can get out of the hardware, so not just leaving us with a few boards that will work, graphics & LAN and nothing else. I know the Subway is supported through the clockport, but it's a clumsy way of doing USB 1.1 when there should be an option to use a PCI card with USB2, and other PCI cards as well.

I've 6 PCI slots available in my Mediator TX so I'd like to be able to populate them all with PCI cards that take advantage of the OS and the hardware they connect to via OS4.1, as I have done with OS3.9.

I'd really like to be able to give OS4.1 Classic the thumbs up, but after OS4.0 for Classic machines I feel really badly let down, especially after the years of wait, the incompatibility on release, being dumped by Hyperion after a quick fix that left the Classic hardware abandoned.

I certainly don't want to suffer that again, and so I am not surprisingly hesitant, and don't trust Hyperion that they won't do exactly what they did before, and abandon the Classic hardware users, once they have ripped them off again.

I will need to hear some assurances of support before I open my wallet and hand over money for a new half-baked OS for the Classic hardware.

[Nearly-Right]

I think you are targeting your grief at the wrong company. Elbox is known to like playing 'cavalier seul'; so IMHO it is their task to provide support for OS4.x.

greets,
Staf.

Unfortunately, as far as I undertand, it is not the case that it is Elbox's fault - it appears it is Hyperion's (Hans Joerg Frieden) fault as he clearly stated to me that he would not allow the A1200 Mediator DMA under OS4.x, even though he knew how it worked. I thought I had made that clear.

I know Elbox have a past where other developers have become upset at their actions, whether justifiable or not, I make no judgement as I was not party to the problems.

Elbox are on the OS4.x developer list with Hyperion so I feel sure lots of the issues that relate to the Mediator have been discussed between each other.

Hyperion hold all the cards as to whether hardware will be allowed to be supported, so this is a main stumbling block of any further OS4.x for the Classic hardware.

The A4000 has true DMA, but even on that Mediator board the Spider USB was not supported or a PCI Soundcard, just the Voodoo graphics and certain NIC PCI cards, so what's the use of a PCI board with just 2 cards working in it. You cannot build a useful modern Amiga OS with the Classic hardware on that basis, at least I don't think so.

There is mention on ACube's OS4.0 pages, that there is a compatability problem with the current PPC hardware, even for the A4000, which if true, would also be a major problem to any forward development with OS4.1 for the Classic hardware as there is no new PPC hardware likely at this stage it seems., and a graphics card, and a NIC do not make a full computer system, and it certainly would not encourage me to part with my money. Once bitten, twice shy.

[Nearly-Right]

Though you seem to comprehend what I've said, you seem to have misunderstood the point I was making. The following applies to the Mediator 1200. I can't speak for the 4000 model as I don't own one.

Firstly, I'm not making anything out to be slow, it is slow.

OK, so compared to a BVision how slow is the Voodoo card in the Mediator, percentage wise, if you don't mind, and/or the raw figures compared like for like?

The truth of the matter is that the DMA methods supported in 3.9 are of limited usefulness.

Unfortunately DMA seems to be of critical usefulness in OS4.x as DMA is required by OS4.x, it seems it's the way the system has been programmed to handle the data through the cards, otherwise the cards in the Mediator could be used directly it seems, but OS4.x does not allow this because HJF would not allow it to be used the way it is worked by Elbox for OS3.9, so DMA is not supported in the Mediator boards for OS4, so there are very few PCI cards supported, not even using the 68k drivers and JIT in OS4.x, as far as I understand it.

That's my point, if there are not going to be any PCI cards useable in the Mediator boards then there's no point in programming the Classic machines for OS4.1, or any higher.

Why have a more up to date PCI system with 6 slots, ans still use the clockport on the A1200 for USB 1.1?

Why not allow other PCI cards to be plugged in such as SCSI, PCI Digital TV cards (for Freeview in UK), MPEG cards, etc. so we can expand our Amigas in a more up to date way.

I'm not so bothered about the speed transfer as much as the useablility of the Mediator under OS4.x.

I, for one, am not going to spend the better part of £100 for OS4.1 so I can plug a Radeon card in and a NIC, and nothing else, I'd rather go the way of AROS, or ARES One, or something else such as OS XL. If the useablility of the Mediator was realised that would be a different story entirely.

I hope at last I have made my point clear.

Would you, or anyone else for that matter be prepared to buy OS4.1 and have such limited useablility in your Mediator, which is the only way a Radeon card can currently be supported in a Classic Amiga?

IMHO, we'd be better buying a SAM board, but I won't spend that sort of money on such a limited piece of hardware, and I'll continue to use my PC as well, though I have a lot less liking for it, but its useability outweighs all that, unfortunately.

[Nearly-Right]

These results are from tests in 2003 sometime:

Voodoo 3000 / Mediator 1200 / 68040 @ 28MHz
================================
VRAM Write Bandwidth : 9293.32 K/s
VRAM Read Bandwidth : 5604.20 K/s

Permedia 2 / 68040 @ 25MHz
===================
VRAM Write Bandwidth : 10395.24 K/s
VRAM Read Bandwidth : 5354.32 K/s

On the Voodoo 3000, both reading and writing were a bit slower (about 10%).

So the Voodoo stayed within about 90% of the speed of the Permedia/BVision, from the figures you have supplied.

I appreciate the time you have taken to supply this information, thanks.

Frankly though I don't call that slow, it's more like you say yourself - slower, and only a little slower at that, 90%+ is within useful parameters.

Required as of when? OS4 happens to work fine with the Mediator. Admittedly, not every PCI card that has drivers for 3.x has drivers for 4.x, but you're making it sound as if the entire PCI system won't work without Elbox's PCI card <-> VRAM DMA method being employed. Which is patently untrue.

I'd really appreciate it if you would share with me, and others who read these pages, what other PCI cards you successfully use in your Mediator setup under OS4 Classic other than the Voodoo 3, and the RTL 8029AS NIC PCI card?

I have OS4 Classic, and after the miserable lockups, various blank coloured error screen, that weren't explained in the Quickstart booklet, and there being no OS support to speak of and many other problems associated with initially installing it I gave it up, and haven't gone back to it, especially as I cannot use the PCI cards I have that happily work under OS3.9, so I'd be glad to hear of a useful Mediator system with OS 4 for Classic running happily, so please make my day.

[Nearly-Right]

We are clearly arguing about different things here.

I don't consider our discussion an argument, just a friendly exchange of ideas and impressions, I would like to think of what we are saying here in just that manner.

You are implying that supporting Elbox's method of inter-device DMA as used in OS3.9 is somehow required to make your expansions work properly under OS4. It isn't. New drivers are.

That is not entirely correct, as far as I am aware, as OS4 does not allow the Elbox drivers to exist or even to co-exist, if Elbox were allowed by HJF to write PPC coded drivers for OS4.0, even if they were using JIT to run them. If I am not mistaken, the only exception being the graphic card, and the NIC, and actually only the RTL8029AS NIC, unless you have some other hardware that actually does something useful in the Mediator under OS4?

Oh, by the way, you seem to have forgotten to tell me what other PCI cards you have working in your OS4.0 A1200 Mediator setup, so please don't forget to let me know on this occasion, or you'll be getting me thinking you don't have any other PCI cards in your A1200 PPC powered Mediator working under OS4.0 Classic.

The Elbox 68k drivers do not work under OS4.0 as they require DMA, and the compatability list states just that on ACube's website, and that not surprisingly is what HJF said to me, as he won't allow Elbox's DMA system to work in OS4.

The Mediator's PCI system may be slow compared to data flow on a PC, but the Amiga was never designed with PCI in mind as it didn't exist then, and the DMA data bus was not designed into the A1200, for some reason (costcutting no doubt)  so Elbox have done a pretty good job at implementing a PCI board/system that only a few others had thought of, and the others that tried on the Amiga didn't succeed as well with, and by the way Elbox are the only one's still standing, at the moment.

I agree with you, new drivers are required for the Mediator, BUT, and this is the crux of the matter, which I tried to explain before ... Hans Joerg Frieden stated he would not allow Elbox to implement a DMA system like they have for OS3.9 into OS4, and so the possibilities are denied to Elbox to even try, unless HJF &/or Hyperion change their stance, and see the best way forward is to implement the Mediator DMA system & drivers for OS4.x, but only Hyperion/HJF can do this so we all benefit. They should not really mind the cludge/monstrosity-of-a-hack to get them upset, just let it work if it can be made to work, if OS4.x is altered to allow it.

Long live the Amiga

[Nearly-Right]

An argument doesn't necessarily imply any hostility anyway.

Point taken, friend

Right now, you'd be right, I have none whatsoever. If you check my signature, you'll see why. The mediator is currently in an OS3.9 machine.

OK, understood, but did you have any other PCI hardware than the GFX card, and a NIC working/running on the Mediator when it had OS4.0 installed for use with the A1200?

So how well does the A1200 function with just the BVision+PPC card on Classic OS4.0, and are you able use it for anything specific, scanning, USB, MIDI, just anything else, I'd be interested to know?

Do you use any other PCI cards for hardware on the A1200 board with the Mediator running OS3.9, or via the clockport or PCMCIA, etc., again I'd be interested to know, or send me a P.M  as this may be getting a little off topic now.