What is a 640x400 LCD TV supposed to do with higher resolutions ?

[arkpandora]

I will try PIP through SCART when I have my monitor replacement : as things are, it might work.

[arkpandora]

Hi,

Well,

1. The quality of the result depends on the quality of the scan doubler, whose role is to change the PAL/NTSC video signal into a VGA signal displayable on a LCD.  My only experience with LCD TV is the Samsung 2032MW I'm talking about in this thread.  In my opinion, its scan-doubler is too bad for anything else than watching movies/television and word processing.  So if you want your Amiga to look like an Amiga, then you have two solutions : either finding a better TV, or use a good external scan doubler between your Amiga and the monitor (in that case the monitor must meet the requirements of the scan doubler instead of the Amiga).  Hodgkinson has just showed me a video that compares the Samsung to a Sony KDL-26U2000 LCD TV : although the result on the Sony is worse than on a CRT TV or monitor, it is much better than the Samsung.

2. To my knowledge, SCART is the best solution indeed.  Component may be an alternative, but as I'm not a specialist somebody else should answer you.  According to Hodgkinson, the SCART cable from AmigaKit will do the job.  At http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2449, he posted some more information.  An external scan doubler may impose a particular format.  In any case, don't use Composite or Aerial if you want the best quality.

3. I believe that picture quality will always be worse, unless you manage to find a perfect LCD TV, but even in that case pixel upscaling would bring you a worse result.  On my Samsung, everything is bad : animation, colors and upscaling.

4. Any LCD TV will accept the default Amiga screen modes which are used in a default Workbench and most games.  If you want to connect your Amiga through a VGA (D-Sub) input only, then the LCD must accept 15 KHz through the VGA input indeed.  If you use an external scan-doubler, then you don't need 15 KHz, but the monitor must meet the scan doubler's other requirements.

LG monitors are probably better than my Samsung, but I cannot assure you of that.

[arkpandora]

"Uni" means "I soon go to university and, you know, I want to seduce girls".

[arkpandora]

@gwyche

LCD displays are better than CRT displays in many important respects : that's the only reason why I wanted to abandon CRT.  However, until I find an LCD that gives better results through the video (15 KHz) inputs, I will go on using LCDs with VGA (31 KHz) computers only, and CRTs for 15 KHz appliances.

Any LCD monitor that works well with today computers should work well with Amiga graphic cards such as the Cybervision, as they use VGA (31 KHz) screen modes like today computers.  Our discussion only concerns the 15 KHz screen modes.  But on some (if not all) monitors, some animation problems may arise too when 15 KHz PAL modes go through an external scan doubler to the VGA input, because the native refresh rate of LCD displays is 60 Hz, not 50 Hz (and most don't accept 50 Hz through the VGA input anyway).

To my knowledge any LCD TV supports 15 KHz screen modes, as analog TV broadcasting standards use 15 KHz.  Not all LCD displays do however - when they don't we call them "monitors" instead of TV.

So yes, LCD TVs have a built-in scan doubler, which is probably responsible for the problems we describe.

I don't understand what you mean by "interleave" flicker.

[arkpandora]

@gwyche

University is a past concern for me (girls are not yet hopefully).

The Samsung 2032MW's scan doubler is a flicker-fixer as well, so that interlaced PAL screens don't flicker as a whole.  But on my copy the result is so bad that I find a flickering screen more natural and pleasant ; you can preview this result in Hodgkinson's video.  Not all LCD TVs have a flicker fixer obviously.

A driver is not required even on the Amiga, unless you can't manage to make your computer display the right screen mode.  If the screen stays black, then one has to try another screen mode.  Or it means that the monitor is unable to display the computer's screen mode(s), in which case drivers won't change anything.  I think that today monitors have some sort of ROM that contains the informations that in the past you had to give the computer in the form of a driver ; if your setup is recent enough, the computer should be able to detect these informations.

Before you ask : "PIP" means "Picture in Picture", a special mode some TV/monitors are equipped with, which allows a video input to be shown in a window over the VGA input.


@Hodgkinson

That's right : maybe LCD "TV" that are not marketed as "monitors" have better video inputs and worse VGA inputs than the others, and vice versa.  Then I have to give up the hope of having only one - and reasonably small - screen on my desk.

[arkpandora]

@gwyche

Well, if the screen stays black, definitely you can't do anything, including installing drivers, so that drivers don't make a difference.  However, if you have a spare monitor that works, you may select other screen modes then try them on the black monitor.  If no standard screen mode works (a 31 KHz 60 Hz 640x400 or 800x600 screen mode should always work), then a driver may be useful, since it would select compatible screen modes for you.  But if no standard screen mode works, it probably means that the monitor is not compatible with the computer for some reason, and probably a driver would not help.

[arkpandora]

Just wondered if anyone else might have noticed this?

Your British phlegm is adorable.  Well, you're just adding another flaw on top of the pile.

My computer shop has given me my Samsung back, saying that in their opinion every problem is normal so that Samsung would probably not accept any exchange, and that I shouldn't have ordered such a bad monitor.

OK, following your example, I will stay calm, give this piece of TV to my little sister, and find something else (but not before trying the PIP through SCART - I will let you know).

[arkpandora]

Funny misunderstanding : I had forgotten this medical meaning although both are linked by the same word in my native French too.  But in French this meaning is less common than the other, as we more often refer to the British than the latter to themselves.

[arkpandora]

Hi,

Thanks for this information.

Which Amiga screen modes have you tested in VGA ?  Can you tell what is wrong with them ?  Doesn't VGA at least give better results than SCART ?

If the Microvitec monitors are the best video CRT monitors, nevertheless I have to note that to my knowledge _any_ common video CRT monitor will give incomparably superior picture than a Samsung 2032MW LCD monitor through SCART.  And I don't even take the resolution upscaling into consideration.

[arkpandora]

Still using this horrible thing ?  ;-)

[arkpandora]

@Flashlab

Thank you for your evidence.

non-native resolution adaptation is very good

As I said earlier, the monitor is unable to recognize the resolution of a Philips CDI console for example : it scales it down.



@Hodgkinson

I'm not a computer specialist, but as discussed before it seems to me that it is not interpolation which is at fault, but the scan-doubler, as animation in non-native VGA modes is normal.  

any moving object on a uniform background taking on a ghostly, shimmering appearance

... among other problems, which destroy 2D animation.  And colours are bad as well.  So to my knowledge this monitor's video inputs are only usable for cheap television or movies, and maybe 3D games if the console doesn't use 2D animation at all (as for me even the Amiga mouse pointer is unbearable on this monitor).

[arkpandora]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were only considering VGA screen modes : then I agree.