What is a 640x400 LCD TV supposed to do with higher resolutions ?

[arkpandora]

And we could have arranged some Beneluxsamsamigans meeting.

[arkpandora]

Not a bad idea though, but arranging it would be a bit of an hassle (accommodation etc.)
!

It was more a matter of not resisting to the need for a big stupid neologism.

[arkpandora]

I have just installed my new Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW.  I must say I am really disappointed, for two reasons.

First, this monitor is unable to display interlaced screens : instead it displays only one line in two.  In other words, a 640x400 interlaced screen will be displayed in 320x200.

Second, I was right to compare it to my bad Samsung vacuum-cleaner : the building quality is poor.  The monitor emits a permanent sizzling noise which is unbearable in a silent environment.  And there is no firm junction between the monitor and its stand, so that every move is tricky and it looks like the monitor may fall without warning...

So I have to sell it and find something else...

Can somebody help me answer the following question : is there any LCD monitor with video input which is able to display interlaced screens without losing half the lines ?

[arkpandora]

D, thank you for your answer.

Excuse me : my diagnosis was wrong.  The monitor does display interlaced screen.  As I was not testing the monitor with an Amiga but with a Philips CDI whose display specifications I don't know well although I'm used to them, I have been mistaken by the fact that this monitor's behaviour was unknown to me, and is too weird to be true.  Besides the poor building quality, here are the two main problems of this Samsung monitor :

On the one hand, the monitor scales some resolutions down.  This is what happens with a Philips CDI : the standard resolution of the CDI is 380x284, but this monitor displays it in about 320x200, losing on the way about 40 % of the picture's pixel count.  As a consequence, this monitor is almost useless with a CDI and probably other computers or consoles.

On the other hand, the scan doubler quality is poor as well : the monitor takes about one second (!) to complete the signal processing.  This has two main visual consequences :

1. Animation is awful, especially scrollings.  Most of the time your Amiga looks like an emulated 50 Hz PAL Amiga on a 60 Hz screen.  As the main advantage of a real Amiga over an emulator is the animation quality (if you can't manage to synchronize your emulated display on your real display), there is no much point in using a real Amiga if you have to use such a TV/monitor.

2. Picture is different during the processing and after the processing.  During the processing, the moving parts of the picture are blurred and shaky.  As a consequence, what you have on your screen is a real mess unless nothing is moving.  Let's consider the mouse pointer : not only is it badly animated as I have just pointed it out, but it is blurred, trembling, and on the other objects (for example icons or drawers) it leaves behind him parasites that takes about one second to disappear.

In conclusion, I think that the Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW is a bad monitor that I would not recommend to anyone, as for the same price you can find better VGA-only monitors.  Unless these problems only concern the SCART RGB input.  I can't test the S-Video input as I don't own any device that can use it, but I will test the composite input someday.

@Flashlab

Can you confirm that your copy of this Samsung behaves the same way ?


This raises the following question : is every LCD TV/monitor that bad ?  This one is my first LCD TV, so I can't tell.  In that case, a usable replacement for CRT monitors is yet to be invented.

Would these problems be related to the "TN" technology D is referring to ?  Yet they don't appear in analog VGA.


@-D-

D, you are saying that the Samsung 171MP is "fantastic for most games".  Would my model or yours be an exception ?

[arkpandora]

@D

Thank you again for your help.

There is obviously no comparison between the problems I am running into and what you describe - which are definitely normal drawbacks of the LCD technology.  I have used several LCD monitors in VGA until now, and none has ever brought me anything close to such an awful result, which doesn't show up with the VGA input of the same monitor either.  So I suppose than the scan doubler is simply very bad.

Can you confirm that you haven't ever noticed the problems I mention on the LCD panels you have used, for example the awful mouse pointer animation, which can't be missed ?


@Flashlab

Thank you for your answer.

Don't worry : several A.org members had recommended Samsung monitors, and I had no reason to expect such a bad result as I expected every LCD TV to have a decent scan doubler.

Even if your Amiga screen pictures were taken from one of the video inputs, I couldn't judge anything from them, as only the moving parts of the picture are affected by these scan doubling horrors, and the Amiga default modes are not concerned by the downscaling problem.

The SCART input is the only video input I have tested until now.  Why do you prefer S-Video to SCART for the Amiga ?  I hope you won't be as horrified as I am.

[arkpandora]

Well, maybe you are right.  That's probably what I will do.

[arkpandora]

No, (except *maybe* the part of the screen being cut-off aspect) those things aren't normal.

Note that that in the case of the 380x284 CDI screen mode, what the monitor does is not cutting off what goes beyond 320 and 200, but displaying the whole screen as if it was a 320x200 screen.  In other words, it degrades the picture.

 I've even played a fair amount of "Battle Duel" on my 740T (using native "vga" modes) and it looked just fine.

Note also that the VGA modes run just fine : only the SCART input (and maybe the other scan-doubled inputs) is at fault.

So yes, either it is a bad scan doubler or a bad specimen.

[arkpandora]

An EAB member has just told me in this thread that his Samsung model (a 225MW) has the same animation problems as mine.  So it could mean that no current Samsung model is able to produce decent animation through an RGB input.

In that thread I give the following more detailed description of the problem.

"Here is what any moving part of the screen looks like :

1. When an object moves off, it becomes blurred and starts flickering.
2. As its new position is slowly updated, you can see the objet at a new position while it has not yet been erased from a previous one : for example, when it moves you can see several copies of the mouse pointer (at best it is like the mouse pointer of a PC), while the Amiga mouse pointer's animation is normally perfect.
3. Once the object has been erased from a previous position, it leaves on the picture various distortions that disappear progressively.
4. The picture and objects take about one second to recover their normal appearance.

In addition, I noticed that the 380x284 resolution of the Philips CDI is scaled down to something like 320x200, which makes this monitor unusable with a Philips CDI and maybe other systems, although the CDI works well on any CRT TV or monitor."

Could anyone using an Amiga connected to any LCD TV or monitor's RGB input tell me whether the same symptoms arise ?

Thank you again.


@Flashlab

Please inform me of your results !

[arkpandora]

Hello,

Thank you for your comments.

Well, my second SM2032MW has just turned up. The first one had a defective left speaker and has just been sent back.

This may again illustrate the poor building quality of the Samsung products.

The only problem is that the mouse pointer shimmers and wobbles on the screen when its moved over objects on the workbench (Also set to high res).  Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.

It looks like it is the same problem I describe in the previous post, isn't it ?  However, as far as my copy of this monitor is concerned, the mouse pointer always behave this way, and what's true for the mouse pointer is true for every moving or changing object (including for example the objects the pointer is moving over), so that animation in general is of very bad quality (for example any normally smooth scrolling is always jerky).

Can you tell me whether your symptoms (in PAL High Res or Low Res through SCART or any other video input) are exactly those I describe in the previous post, or not ?

Currently using a AmigaKit 23pin RGB - SCART cable with the shielding modified to be now properly grounded.

If your answer to my question is "yes", then I suppose trying another cable wouldn't be of any help for me either.  I have tested the two different SCART cables I have always been using with my Amiga, without noticing any difference between them.  I don't know if they are properly grounded : how can I see that ?

Now I can run both my PC and A1200 on the same monitor

Then you mean that your Amiga on this monitor looks like an Amiga.  My monitor has been sent back to Samsung : I'm waiting for a replacement.

[arkpandora]

I've only noticed the shimmering in the super high res laced modes so far (Having said that I've never had the interlace modes work decently on any other monitors/TV's before)

On my copy, the problem shows up in every screen mode, interlaced or not.  It's even worse in interlaced modes, but as things are it doesn't make a difference.  Even in interlaced modes, the result on a normal CRT monitor or TV is incomparably better, except that the screen as a whole does not flicker on the Samsung - but every moving object does badly so it doesn't make a difference either.

all the other modes seem to be nice and stable on the "old" LCD.

On the same basis Deluxe Galaga and Starfighter look fine with movement on the LCD in their native modes (Yey!), albeit they don't quite fill the screen.

Then your copy seems to be better than mine.

To shield the cable, I connected the screen of the cable to the D Connector shell - Thus grounding the shield. Its important that it isn't grounded at both ends though as this results in ground loops.

In case my new copy is as bad as the first, I will try this option if I can.

When I get the new monitor hooked up I'll try to remember come back and let you know what its like.

OK - thank you very much.

[arkpandora]

Thanks for your help.

The only video input I have used is the SCART input.  I first tried a standard PAL Philips CDI system with a standard SCART cable, then a PAL Amiga 600 with a standard RGB to SCART cable, both systems I am used to.  On the Amiga I tested the default High Res and High Res Laced screen modes in 4 colours, and ran a great variety of Low Res games.  In any case the result is what I described.


As for the monitor settings and aspect ratio, they don't change anything to the result either.

PS. My opinion is that the monitor bases themselves are reasonable, but on the other hand it feels like your going to break something when you try to attach the base to the monitor!

I too almost had to sit on the monitor in order to fit it into the base.  Then suddendly both fit together, but as there is no noise you are not sure whether you have to stop pushing or not.  And the whole is not very stable.  Compared to my other LCD monitor, an outstanding NEC LCD1770GX, this Samsung looks like a child toy.

[arkpandora]

Thank you !

[arkpandora]

Thank you for this review !  It seems that your monitor is not much better than mine - if it is better at all.

The background noise seemed negligible here in comparison with discolouration, but on plain colours I especially noticed vertical stripes.

Your moving objects' flickering/fogging resemble feature 2 of the animation problem description I gave above :

1. When an object moves off, it becomes blurred and starts flickering.
2. As its new position is slowly updated, you can see the objet at a new position while it has not yet been erased from a previous one : for example, when it moves you can see several copies of the mouse pointer (at best it is like the mouse pointer of a PC), while the Amiga mouse pointer's animation is normally perfect.
3. Once the object has been erased from a previous position, it leaves on the picture various distortions that disappear progressively.
4. The picture and objects take about one second to recover their normal appearance.

Could you confirm you see these four features too ?

On the other hand, this effect doesn't seem to be noticeable in games that bring up their own screen or bash the hardware directly, probably due to the vastly reduced resolution that they use.

As far as my copy of this monitor is concerned, animation in every Low Res game is as bad.  Only feature 3 maybe is not as marked.  For example, any scrolling (especially vertical) will be jerky and you can see every moving object's drawing petrify (change from its moving look to its static look) in the second after it stops moving.

For the tests I’ve been using the fixed wide-mode on the monitor with all the colour settings left on some particular fixed mode. For this particular monitor mode interlacing seems to be a necessity with the higher resolution modes in order to get the aspect ratio of objects on the screen to appear correct - Without it objects are stretched vertically

I don't understand what you mean, as I suppose that Amiga screen modes in the wide-mode should be stretched horizontally, so that interlacing them would only emphasize that stretching.  Do Low Res and High Res look decent in 4:3 mode ?

If composite looks crummier than SCART, then I don't want to imagine what it looks.

a phono cable with RF running down the opposite channel might have something to do with this...

I don't understand either : what do you mean in simple words ?

[arkpandora]

Given the light building quality of this monitor, I wouldn't be surprised if every copy behaves differently.

If the animation problem is the same on your monitor in Low Res as on mine, then you should at least notice features 1 and 2 from my description.  Feature 1 would be obvious in screens that use a mouse pointer, pop-up menus or any sprite of which you can control the movement or presence on a still screen.  The mouse pointer and pop-up menu in the game "Future Wars" are perfect examples.  Feature 2 may sometimes only be obvious in constant speed scrollings that are normally perfect on a CRT monitor.  I have tried a great variety of games, but not Deluxe Galaga or Starfighter.  You may notice it clearly in the intro of "Test Drive II" or the intro text scrolling in "Vroom".

that RF pickup and radiation from the other channel of the cable could of distorted the composite image. I hope that makes sense.

It does : now I understand, thanks.

[arkpandora]

I will try PIP through SCART when I have my monitor replacement : as things are, it might work.

[arkpandora]

Hi,

Well,

1. The quality of the result depends on the quality of the scan doubler, whose role is to change the PAL/NTSC video signal into a VGA signal displayable on a LCD.  My only experience with LCD TV is the Samsung 2032MW I'm talking about in this thread.  In my opinion, its scan-doubler is too bad for anything else than watching movies/television and word processing.  So if you want your Amiga to look like an Amiga, then you have two solutions : either finding a better TV, or use a good external scan doubler between your Amiga and the monitor (in that case the monitor must meet the requirements of the scan doubler instead of the Amiga).  Hodgkinson has just showed me a video that compares the Samsung to a Sony KDL-26U2000 LCD TV : although the result on the Sony is worse than on a CRT TV or monitor, it is much better than the Samsung.

2. To my knowledge, SCART is the best solution indeed.  Component may be an alternative, but as I'm not a specialist somebody else should answer you.  According to Hodgkinson, the SCART cable from AmigaKit will do the job.  At http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2449, he posted some more information.  An external scan doubler may impose a particular format.  In any case, don't use Composite or Aerial if you want the best quality.

3. I believe that picture quality will always be worse, unless you manage to find a perfect LCD TV, but even in that case pixel upscaling would bring you a worse result.  On my Samsung, everything is bad : animation, colors and upscaling.

4. Any LCD TV will accept the default Amiga screen modes which are used in a default Workbench and most games.  If you want to connect your Amiga through a VGA (D-Sub) input only, then the LCD must accept 15 KHz through the VGA input indeed.  If you use an external scan-doubler, then you don't need 15 KHz, but the monitor must meet the scan doubler's other requirements.

LG monitors are probably better than my Samsung, but I cannot assure you of that.