A500 tablet... well kinda

[the_leander]

And then I'm lugging around a separate keyboard with the tablet instead of having one integrated, since I'm always going to need one. I'm not saying that there aren't people who do very little typing and thus can get by with a tablet and touchscreen-keyboard generally, but there are also a lot of people who do do a lot of typing (writers and programmers, for instance.) Saying that keyboard-less computing is "a logical step for computers to take" as a whole is saying that their needs aren't important, which is naive.

In some circumstances it is though. Sure, some groups, such as those you cite will always need a keyboard, they are however something of a minority.

The world of big box systems as the norm are coming to an end, lifestyle PCs are were it's heading these days. Big box systems are likely in the future to be the preserve of workstations and dedicated bleeding edge performance gaming boxes.

[the_leander]

Yes, and I hear there'll be flying cars, food synthesizers, and robot housekeepers at CES this year.

Lifestyle PCs along the lines of the iMac all in one have been growing in popularity for a while now (IE in the last 2 years or more), most of the major PC manufacturers are going down this road. You can stick your head in the sand as much as you want, but they've been around and are growing in popularity.

(And that still doesn't address the issue of there being no reason for a device the size of a tablet to not include a keyboard.

Because people don't want to develop carpel tunnel syndrome. You want a dedicated keyboard? Get a laptop. Of the few tablet type devices I've seen keyboards on, such as the kindle and more recently a Samsung tablet I played with, the result is a horrid compromise that offers little over a purely touch screen device and horrid to use in practice.

[the_leander]

Why don't they make these wee touch pad thingies a bit bigger about 16 inches by 12 inches would suit me fine I reckon...

10.1ins is about as big as they're ever likely to get. Remember these things are designed to be portable and easy to hold in your hand. At 16ins weight, bulk and battery life would become serious problems.

If you're wanting something of those sorts of dimensions, a laptop is your best bet.

[the_leander]

See, I know that, but what I don't understand is how you're getting from "are becoming popular" to "are totally going to replace PCs for the average user."

Because it's a trend that shows no sign of ending. The lifestyle PC form factors such as the all in one by the iMac and the EeeTops is one that better fits into a home than some honking great tower. And these days they have more than enough processing and graphics power to do just about anything you'd want. Many of these all in ones also come with touch screens along with keyboards.

 How many people who have a tablet don't have a PC in their home?

And how many of those have as their PC a lifestyle all in one system such as an iMac?

As with the netbooks, it's likely these things will be used as satellite systems, at least for the foreseeable future.

Something you can have laying around your house that you can quickly access to look up something or check over things.

And while a low-power keyboardless portable device will probably work just fine for most of an average user's typical leisure computing, how many of them (teenagers with large amounts of disposable income excepted) don't have a few text-intensive or processor-intensive (by tablet standards) tasks that they need to take care of (e-mail, budget tracking, 3D gaming, etc.)?

Many of these lifestyle pcs come with fairly beefy cpus and gpus that are more than up for light gaming. Even the low end ones, with the exception of gaming would be more than capable of the rest.

But there is a convergence in form factors between lifestyle PCs and tablets.

Certainly the hardware is becoming ever more capable and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point someone offers up a tablet which from the start offers up a docking station and keyboard so it can effectively offer both. The only question then is the size of the tablet, too big and it fails in terms of portability and battery life, too small and you're going to hurt yourself trying to use it as a desktop machine.

Fifteen years ago or so I saw the libretto as a massively pricey toy. Who on earth would use it for serious work? Today I can pick up a netbook with a dual core atom with or without nvidias ION2 chipset for about a quarter of the price and it's capable of doing everything I use day to day. Same for a dualcore lifestyle pc and in the very near future probably tablets as well.

What you're likely going to see at some point is someone offering an end to end solution that offers up on one side a lifestyle PC or maybe a tablet with a nas come router that is hidden away out of sight in the home that has all your storage. Everything such as your desktop, laptop/tablet would then sync in wirelessly or stream off larger stuff locally held on the nas.

My money is on Apple. But even today you could set one up if you had the technical know how.

However, I don't see them completely supplanting full-fledged PCs (laptop or desktop) for anybody other than pre-adults who spend a lot of time on YouTube and Flash games.

They won't in their current guise. But don't underestimate how much technology can evolve over even a short span of time.

And it seems that someone was paying attention to your complaint about tablet keyboards.

[the_leander]

The  distinguishing factor between a tablet and a real PC, as far as I'm concerned,  is the presence of a real keyboard, a reasonable amount of RAM, and a reasonably powerful CPU. Hardware  is hardware, and I couldn't give less of a crap about the form factor.

Cool, I can make wholly arbitrary lines in the sand too!

And that's great, right up until someone comes along and blurs the line still further .

Hmm, interesting. The Tegra looks promising for mobile computing, but I don't see anything about any other specs, let alone what it'll cost.

Spec wise consider Tegra to be the cousin of ION that no one ever mentions. Price wise? Who knows. Asus have gotten into the habit of putting a premium on their gear of late.

[the_leander]

And, uh, not seeing a keyboard there. 1GB of RAM and a 1GHz CPU is okey-dokey, but all the horsepower in the world isn't going to make a touchscreen into a keyboard. (Also, what about storage space? Didn't see any mention in the article.)

From the article, just under the second picture.

Accessories include a speaker dock with USB and HDMI ports (shown), plus a keyoard and stand

From Tablet to lifestyle PC with just the addition of a dock.

[the_leander]

Okay, so you're still stuck with either trying to use a tablet as a laptop via a separate keyboard (not fun,)

In practical terms, how is it different to using a lifestyle PC?

 or treating it as a desktop PC (pointless - you can get a better desktop for the same amount of money or a similarily-powered one for less and not have to use a damn stand accessory.)

The point that you keep missing is that it can be used either as a lightweight desktop, or be taken out and about as a tablet. Having one device that you can use at the comfort of your desk with a keyboard of your choice or as a portable device without any strings attached.

It wasn't that long ago that someone on this board was describing just such a device as something he looked forward to having. Now whilst I personally prefer having something like either a laptop/lifestylePC at home and a netbook to use whilst on the move, some people may find the idea of one system that can be used in both roles an attractive option...

Ultimately it's about how best your needs can be met by a given form factor, for you, it won't, for others, it might.

[the_leander]

Yes, it does work if your mobile computing needs do not include significant keyboard use and your desktop computing needs do not include more power than can be had with a high-end tablet.

Which covers a significant proportion of the computer using world. An increasing number of younger computer users I know have started to view facebook as the internet, for instance. Everything they do stems from that one site.

However, you were pitching it as something that "blurs the line even further" between a real-computer laptop and a tablet, which it doesn't, as it does not have an integrated keyboard. Nor does it "blur the line even further"

Err, yes it does blur that line. As does the Asus that I pointed out to you previously. Your arbitrary and mobile set of complaints is just that.

between a real-computer desktop and a tablet, as unless it's significantly cheaper than existing tablets as well as being more powerful than them, you can still get a better desktop PC for the same amount of money.

Oh look, moving goal posts! First you complain about the keyboard, then when shown one with a keyboard complain about it in a desktop setting, so I show you one that comes with everything you'd find on a lifestylePC and now you're onto price. Android tablets start at £99.

I'll bet you were one of these people who bitched about Netbooks being useless because they weren't well suited to using photoshop too when they first came out.

but they're not for me,

And that in a nutshell is what you cannot see past. People use their computers in a very different way to the way I use them and I suspect you use them. For them, something like this is more than adequate.

Will they take over today? Doubtful, though even then there are probably some users who could get on. But consider how far netbooks have come, they're now touting dualcore processors and in the high end models very respectable gpus in the shape of ION. How long do you really think it's going to be before tablets, which in their current guise are first gen effectively begin to update and improve?

 the fact is there is no way to tell short of waiting to see.

The writing is on the wall for the big box system and as in another thread, whilst lifestylePCs, laptops and netbooks are leading the way currently, it'll be mobile devices that eventually come to the fore. Consider the capabilities of even a budget Android smartphone these days.

[the_leander]

Yes, but are they going to stay that way? The specific reason I was exempting pre-adults is because there's a lot of things they don't have to be concerned with at their age that a desktop or laptop is currently much better-suited for than a tablet. That is likely to change as they grow up.

Given that these same kids are where a lot of this new gear is being aimed, can you not see that how they get into computing is going to seriously effect how they deal with things?

Consider the difference even of 18 year olds today, they have grown up with computers their whole lives and from what I see use their systems in a radically different way to myself, who started off with computers in the mid 80s.

 Uh, I was complaining about everything you mentioned within my first couple posts in this thread.

Right...

You seem to have an erroneous mental image of me as some sort of MIPS-hungry power-user just because I think that tablets and smartphones are underpowered for modern computing.

Define "modern computing". This is where I think a lot of the problem lies with this discussion.

Again, I don't doubt that tablet horsepower will improve in the future. But so will desktops (and thus, so will the horsepower requirements for up-to-date applications, though this is a trend that I myself find annoying,) and there are still key differences (once again: KEYBOARD) that will make them less well-suited to many tasks than a netbook, mid-range laptop, or modest desktop.

Up to a point, but consider even yourself, a netbook, with a (presumably single core) Atom, is enough for your day to day stuff. A lot of the work these days is about getting power requirements down. For a great many people, a single or even a dual core atom, especially when married up to an ION chipset, would be more than adequate for their computing needs in their totality.

And these ARM based tablets have more than enough muscle from what nicholas has shown to pimp slap an Atom.

Okay, see, once again, when I talk about desktops I'm not talking about big-iron liquid-cooled gaming rigs - I'm talking about anything that is not portable, including what you're calling "lifestyle PCs."

Neither am I talking about high end gaming rigs. I'm talking exactly the same - desktop systems in general.

You can keep throwing around that term all you want, but that won't make it A. relevant to the discussion, or B. not a meaningless marketroid buzzword.

It is entirely relevant to the discussion and you can bitch all you want about it being a "meaningless marketdroid buzzword" newsflash, so is the term netbook.

When I talk about lifestylePCs, I'm talking about these and these and at the budget end these.

As far as desktops go, the above represent the latest incarnation and are top sellers in their own rights.

And you still seem to be under the impression that "will become more popular"

It's not a case of "will become". It's a case of they are popular now and that popularity is increasing. Just take a gander at how many iPads shipped at launch.

necessarily means "will overtake and replace everything else." Ownership and regular use of a tablet and a desktop PC are anything but mutually exclusive, and I suppose it's even possible that some people might use a laptop and a tablet concurrently (though I still can't fathom why they would.)

Having two screens is useful sometimes depending on your work flow - having one screen that you're using for research whilst the other has your word processor on it, for instance.