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Author Topic: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86  (Read 43321 times)

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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #14 from previous page: October 25, 2010, 11:52:52 PM »
Quote from: desiv;587035

I do wonder, what were the JPEG times for those 2 systems?
How did they compare at the time?



The major issue with such a test is the fact that even if the Amiga's CPU wins out, it'll still get smooshed at the point it attempts to display it by any 486 by virtue of the fact that the 486 will be using a graphics card almost certainly superior to either ECS or AGA.

In none compute intensive tasks, my A3000 030'25 with a CV64 was significantly more fluid to use verses my A1200 AGA with an 040'28.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 12:03:32 AM »
Quote from: desiv;587057
True.  Not only was Intel pulling ahead based on shear power about that time, but the graphics cards on the PCs were just starting to come into their own a bit.

Although, sheer power can't be totally written off...
Some of the AGA 060 demos by The Black Lotus are just amazing...

Or so they appear on youtube.  No 060 to test them..  :(

desiv


TBL senseless and starstruck run quite well on an 040 if you're running oxypatcher. Dunno about later ones.

--edit--

AFAIK they also work under UAE too, since that was the environment they were developed under.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:06:58 AM by the_leander »
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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2010, 11:30:23 PM »
Quote from: Fransexy_;587326
The problem of your reasoning is that I'm also an end user (and like me others more) and I see benefit with PowerPC. Don't  force others to see what you want to see.If you like x86 so badly you have AROS, What is your problem?


So what you're saying then is that he has no right to express his opinion.

He isn't forcing you to do anything, what he's saying is that he disagrees with your choice. This is absolutely his right. Just as much as it is absolutely your right to make that choice and disagree with his assessment.
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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 12:24:26 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;587420

The situation gets even more problematic if you actually consider OS4 to be true derivate work, since there are several unattended ownership/copyright issues surrounding various parts of Amiga OS 3.1. Third party entities (like Cloanto for example) claimed to be co-authors (hence a stake holder) of Amiga OS 3. William S. Hawes is the author of AREXX, which Commodore included in OS 3 without his permission, which Hyperion still does AFAIK. There are others. Heck, even the entire path of transferring of Amiga IP from Commodore, through the previous IP owners, to what's today known as Amiga Inc is dubious:

http://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/

Reading that site raises the question of how much this agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion is worth at all? Does Amiga Inc even have the right to make deals with Hyperion regarding the IP in the first place? It might work just fine as long as no old stake holder with his documents in order is opposing it? Like a house built of a deck of cards; it might look like a pretty construction as long as it's left alone. But as soon as someone opens the window on a windy day and let the drag in, it can collapse in an instant.


And if you read the court dox it gets even more fun - Hyperion only own the right to sell the OS4 binaries, the source code remains the property of the developers.

All in all, I'm not entirely certain how this could be made more of a minefield legally than it is now.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 12:27:25 PM »
Quote from: Hammer;587440
According to Steve Jobs, the clones are unwilling to pay higher licensing cost.


I imagine that whilst there is some truth to that, the idea of other OS's running up and possibly beating them on their own hardware didn't make Jobs all that happy. This is backed up by the fact that they refused point blank to supply the necessary info to Be Inc regarding post CHRP hardware.
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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2010, 01:42:41 PM »
Quote from: kedawa;587469
I don't understand how that's such an obsatcle.  Linux runs on those machines, so why couldn't BeOS?


Linux took years to run on those machines.

When you're a small company that will live or die based on your next release, you can't afford to wait for years. You act now, or you're used as an object lesson for other companies.
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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2010, 12:38:29 AM »
Quote from: vidarh;588636
Besides the point. It also will likely do better than a lot of naysayers are assuming.


And your evidence for this lies in what? Not to get off on a rant here, but Aeon are a completely untested and unknown quantity. You have the Sam which is a great deal more reasonable on the wallet and sales for it have pretty much dried up - practically everyone who wanted one has one.

All of this assumes that the X1000 ever ships of course. Given the slow shipment of hardware for betatesters, this really is up in the air.

Quote from: vidarh;588636

 As others have pointed out, the prices for Amiga-related hardware demonstrates that this community has a lot of money.


Back at the beginning of the naughties, around 1500 people bought the ill fated AmigaOne. The community was significantly bigger then.

I would be very surprised if the Sam had sold that many.

Quote from: vidarh;588636

 Since few people use these machines as their only or even primary computer, capabilities and performance is secondary to other aspects, and price too is down to whether or not we can afford it, not so much whether or not it's cost effective.


The X1000 is competing against the Sam in terms of AmigaNG-OS4 and against old mac gear for MorphOS. If your kick is nostalgia then it's competing against UAE, Minimig and classic hardware. It is entering a relatively small market from the top end, which is itself limiting.

You may well be well off, but many/most people aren't, especially with the credit crunch in full swing. Your line of reasoning might well work for you but I just can't see it translating to anyone who isn't pretty well off. Cost comes high, but even if you could afford it you are still going to be asking some pretty hard questions about what the hardware is going to offer you against the alternatives I've listed. Capabilities and performance most definitely feature heavily into any equation that is as highly priced as the X1000 promises to be.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 12:10:14 PM »
Quote from: vidarh;588722
And your evidence for this lies in what? :-P


The fact that when previous models of the Sam ceased production amiga resellers still had stocks of the things for months afterwards. Consider that these are limited production run machines.

Quote from: vidarh;588722


I'm not arguing that everyone will be able to afford it, because clearly there will be people that can't. I'm arguing that this community has enough people with cash to spare


In pure numbers maybe (though if I'm honest I really doubt even that). But that market is heavily segmented. You're not taking into account that a significant chunk of your "potential market" doesn't give a rats ass about OS4.

Look at the OS4 centric forums on AW.net and Amigans. These people constitute the hardcore of OS4 support and yet collectively they shat a brick when they got wind of the price.

Quote from: vidarh;588722

, and that the amounts of money being spent on old and slow hardware is a pretty good indication


No, it really isn't and you're completely missing the point. Yes, there is some overlap between those who want the classic kit and those who are into the NG gear. But not all. For many people they are buying that old hardware is buying back a bit of their childhood or buying addons for pre-existing classic kit.

OS4 and it's associated hardware might as well be an entirely different platform.




Quote from: vidarh;588722

so I'd argue they're better off aiming for the high end, both because there's at least some signs they're attracting people that wouldn't otherwise consider an AmigaOS machine, and because they might be able to survive on far lower total sales (in pounds/euros, not just units) and that the price elasticity in this market is so big that sales are not likely to fall off in proportion to the price increasing.


If the X1000 ever breaks even, by which I mean pays for its own development costs. I'll be very surprised.

Quote from: vidarh;588722

Of course, this is guesswork, but it is guesswork that has some basis in how niche markets actually work: They *do* generally have far higher price elasticity; they *do* tend to see a lot less focus on hard numbers and price/performance compared to other factors (people who care mostly about price/performance generally go for the mainstream products instead)


Yeah except the other retro markets I see operate on a much more realistic models, sure rare original stuff sells at a premium, but "new" hardware is sold at reasonable prices. All you do when you produce a ridiculously expensive piece of kit is limit your market, in a market as small and fractious as it is for OS4, beyond a handful like you, the rest of the market leaves you for dead. See the reaction on AW.net and Amigans for details.

Quote from: vidarh;588722

No, I'm not. It's the first computer to run AmigaOS4 that's feels like it'll be "fast enough" for me to give it serious use. It's passing a threshold. That's enough.


You may not, but it would be a mistake to presume others think like you. You want it, great.

Quote from: vidarh;588722

The XMOS chip


*facepalm*



Quote from: vidarh;588722

 and the recent hint that it might be possible for them to get Linux running in parallel with AOS4 on the second core are interesting bonuses that rise the geek appeal, but not necessary.


Yeah the key word in that is "hint".

Here's a clue since you seem to be new here: Hyperion lie.


Quote from: vidarh;588722

The rest doesn't really factor in. Call it a midlife crisis if you want - I want the X1000 instead of the Ferrari.


Not all of us are suffering from a midlife crisis, some of us don't have the time to do so.

Quote from: vidarh;588722

We can argue (based on guesses on both sides, since neither of us have any actual data) about the number of people who'll think about the X1000 like me, but that this market segment exists is clear


If it sells more than 150 units total (assuming it ever ships at all), I'll be genuinely shocked.

And before you jump on this: Consider that Aeon are struggling to even get to the stage where beta boards are being made.

Quote from: vidarh;588722

You're looking at this from a utility point of view, but utility does not govern this type of niche market.


For you. For many others they took one look at the price, one look at what it offered, compared it against the alternatives and said no. It isn't just "utility", it's that there are other, cheaper competitive options in this marketplace that are significantly better value for money.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2010, 04:13:24 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;590097
Look, not everyone thinks like you.


Indeed. :D

Quote from: HenryCase;590097
You can't tell me I'm wrong


Actually I can, as much as you have a right to your opinion, I have a right to mine. The fact is however, as EDanaII rightly stated, I was criticising AEON/Hyperion, not you.

Quote from: HenryCase;590097

, and just because you want a cheap and fast machine to run OS4 doesn't make other X1000 fans wrong either.


Must... Not... Bite...

As far as your question for expanding the userbase goes... Dumping AmigaNG and concentrating on the classics - cashing in on the retro crowd and neatly bypassing almost all of the bad blood within the community.

Anyway EDanaII and warpdesign pretty much have it covered as far as anything else goes on this
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Offline the_leander

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2010, 08:55:02 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;590167

So you have got some self control. Keep it up.


Unnecessary.
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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2010, 08:57:23 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;590169
As an aside, hands up everybody here that would actually buy an x86 version of AmigaOS considering AROS is already on x86 and is completely free?


10 years ago maybe. Today, with or without AROS... No, not if it were produced by Hyperion.
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