Excitement about NatAmi

[the_leander]

Remember that the team gets to buy their systems first for testing purposes.  By the time you can buy the production model, the '050 softcore may be already running 100% performance and the team will be working on the N68070 to be superscalar on top of that.

So what you're saying is, it's incomplete/unproven.

Right, that's all I needed to know. Get back to me when it's ready.

I don't listen to "maybes" any more.

BTW, if you try to run UAE on an ARM Cortex A8 (such as the Pandora), you'll see that it typically trips over itself and delivers roughly stock A1200 performance.

UAE !=  just 68k emulation. Comparison fail sir. Emulating the AGA chipset is a very processor intensive operation.

For the fastest '060 read the clock speed of this and weep:http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60F/NAe60F_1.jpg

And? Bernd Meyer of Amithlon fame was getting ~50% performance out of the 68k emulation he was using and by his own admission both the OS4 and MorphOS 68k emulations were far superior to his.

It's simple math.  with a 3.67Mhz clock and 16 bit bus, how fast does a real Amiga move RAM?  Now figure the speed of DDR2 which in burst moves what 8 bytes at once and there is cache to throttle it as well.  Infact, for A500 games compatibility there will be a 3.67Mhz mode...

I asked for a citation, ie, benchmarks. This isn't it. And given that none of this has actually been proven, it's all academic.

No one claimed '060's were cheap nor that NATAMI will be cheap.  Read the faq
http://www.natami.net/qa.htm

There is not cheap and holy shit that's pricey! There is a very real danger that if it is too expensive it'll price itself out of the market. See the reaction to the X1000 for details.

If I was in on the bet, you'd owe me money...

I'd owe you sweet FA chum.

[the_leander]

@the_leander
Can you prove to me the sun will rise tomorrow?
Mathematically, if all goes to plan it will.  However, it could go super nova over night...

Strawman.

Seriously, stop being ignorant.

I ask you (repeatedly) for evidence to back up your assertions and you utterly refuse to supply them, then you accuse me of ignorance? GTFO!

Until it is released, all your claims are just that - claims.

SamuraiCrow at least had the good sense to coach much of his response as something he hoped for rather than fact.

But oh yeah, you can't buy the LX board so is vapor.

Fixed.

Yes. Given the history of this community and all the hardware that never moved beyond prototyping (or even got that far). This is the only reasonable position to take.

[the_leander]

Before I go on, you do realize that "blitting" is basically just moving memory, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_blit

And before you continue, you do realise that unless you back up your claims with evidence, they will viewed with suspicion by anyone else, right?

Now what is the memory transfer rate of an unexpanded Amiga 500?  Let's see if you know how to do your homework?

I don't give a crap about the A500's memory transfer rate. I am asking yet again for you to back up your specific claims regarding the Natami.

Can you show that the blitter is capable of anything like the 100x increase you claimed earlier? (Hell even being able to show it works at all would be a start).

however your thought process seems broken.

Expecting proof for technical claims = broken thought process. Only Amiga makes it possible.

The developer has announce boards are almost ready for production.

On schedule and rocking eh?

It sad that someone make a statement on this forum.  Someone else is then in disbelief and demands proof despite have no basis for such a demand nor even has a right to make any demands what so ever.

So no one has the right to challenge your claims? Epic!

Wouldn't it be simpler to come up with evidence to the contrary on your own rather than troll out demands that carry no weight other than in your own little black book?

It is not my job to disprove your claims, it is yours to back them up with evidence. Only a fundie or someone with a similar level of intellectual dishonesty would claim otherwise.

Then again I am talking to gamecube boy, so I shouldn't really expect anything better.

[the_leander]

First off, as a member of the Natami team it would be unprofessional of me to allow hopes to get excessively high.  Without a prototype to test on we can't do much profiling.

I'd like to thank you for your candor in this matter, as well as your professionalism with regards discussing something that I'm sure is extremely exciting to be a part of. It's refreshing to see this much honesty.

Secondly, we can test the VHDL code with a simulator so it looks like the N68050 is right on track to be clocked at 133 MHz and to be able to combine instruction sequences internally for one instruction cycle-per-clock execution for most instructions.

What sort of compatibility are you looking at? (on par with an 040, for instance)

Also, I've mentioned in a previous post that the Natami LX was a prototype and had some performance lapses in it preventing it from going to market.

Can I ask what sorts of issues cropped up?

[the_leander]

You continue to troll.

And you continue to fail to provide evidence to backup your assertions.

You failed algebra.  The potential is closer to 400x the speed of an A500 blitter but for other reasons that will only end up in the 100x-200x range.  100x is a conservative #.

Citation needed.

The point you keep failing to take on board is that doing a straight calculation only works if you're talking about the two blitters being functionally identical and no different in terms of how they do their job.

The moment you start throwing in buffers, 32bit blitting etc. All bets are off.

This is of course assuming that the blitter on the natami actually works as advertised and doesn't have some hitherto unknown bug etc.

That is all.

But again, this is not fact. Without benchmarks on real (or as real as an fpga powered platform can be) hardware, you cannot prove your case.

As another in the thread said - what you're doing is speculating. Only you're claiming it as "fact", which is dishonest.

You could challenge them if you had facts but you don't even know the first thing about blitting and memory access speeds.

I can challenge anyone's claims at any time as can anyone else on this public forum. Those who actively refuse to provide evidence and are, time and again spanked for talking rubbish.

Ad hom

Ah, run out of arguments so you attack the person asking you for proof.

What was it you said? Ah yes

If you want to call me a liar,

No I accused you of being intellectually dishonest. Which you have been. Reading comprehension fail.

then come back with facts instead of challenges.

Again, it is not my place to disprove your claims.

 I gave you facts

You gave nothing. You pointed to a wikileaks article and then said "do the math" without any evidence to show that the blitter on natami even works.

See my explanation above as to why what you said was and continues to be a complete and utter nonsense.

Rogue on AW.net said they OS4 could run on the Wii.  You, sir, lack much upstairs...

Coming from you, that means absolutely nothing, mr gamecube. You were running around the forums talking about porting to the gamecube first, later the wii, without even the slightest thought as to how wise a choice that would be. As JJ said, rouge said it to get you to shut up.

The only thing that was going through your head, was that it had a PPC. Same as when you tried to imply that the kurobox nas might be a good fit for OS4, even with it lacking a graphics chip or the means to add one.

[the_leander]

Your posts in this thread have been abrasive already, but now you're just being rude and obnoxious.

Very interesting that you ignore his multiple ad homs previous to this and focus in on that one. Very interesting indeed.

I hope a mod bans you for a while to teach you a lesson.

If and when I breach the TOS, I'm sure I'll receive the appropriate infraction.

[the_leander]

His point is very clear, and is based upon simple assumptions:

Which he claims as fact. Do try to keep up.

My problem isn't with the assumption as such (though given the proposed updates in the rest of the enhanced AGA being proposed by the Natami team I think a simple maths equation just won't cut it), but with the fact that he states it as fact and then gets angry when asked to provide evidence.

I'm not arguing that having two essentially identical bits of hardware, with one working many times faster than the other will not be faster, I'm saying that until we have working hardware in our hands, we cannot say accurately "how much".

Ah, the FPGA isn't hardware argument. Sheesh.

That wasn't what I was getting at. Truthfully I have no pony in that argument.

At least he has made an effort to back up his claims.

I'm not making any claims though. I'm asking where the evidence for this thing actually doing what is being said is.  

If it had been prefaced with "in theory" or "is projected to have" or some other similar disclaimer, I would have said very little on the matter.

You can argue like an adult, or just call people names. You call people names. Grow up.

All I did was ask for evidence "Citation needed". Apparently these days that's abrasive, rude and obnoxious. Fair enough.

I think I get it. You don't care what Lou is saying

Still failing. Read above.

My reason for "dredging up" the past was to point out that far from some pedestal occupying god, to be gazed at in wonder but not to be questioned that he'd apparently like to be treated as. He is in fact only a hair's breadth from being Atheist2. Honestly I don't know or really care about him, in fact the word "muppet" pretty much sums up my feelings toward him in their totality.

[the_leander]

You have an attitude problem.

So does everyone you don't like.

You showed it in your early responses to lou's post - e.g., "I'd owe you sweet FA chum." -

And if you look carefully, you'd see that there was a link explaining the meaning behind the "You are X and I claim my £5" from wikipedia.

Context, will you bother to supply any?

a very aggressive phrasing in English, it's effectively one step before someone glasses someone in the face in a pub.

Maybe it is considered "aggressive phrasing" amongst the chattering classes, but down here on the front lines it's every day language used as a polite replacement for "Fuck All", the verbal equivalent of putting stars * in place of letters. In short, you're talking nonsense.

When someone writes "100x faster blitter" they're not being 100% pedantically accurate.

And instead of saying anything like you're implying, he went off on one about it being pure maths to prove his case that what he said was in fact, a fact. One which if I didn't agree to, would mean I was subnormal.

You're determined to ignore everything that was said in its context to prove your point, aren't you?

It is interesting to note that you jumped on Lou's 100MHz 68060 comment very quickly, and that in the next comment SamuraiCrow said that it was actually a 99MHz 68060, but that the 68050 core would be over 100MHz.

SamuraiCrow had the good grace (and I mentioned it earlier in the thread too) to back himself up with evidence and preface any statements carefully with the point that the hardware wasn't ready yet.

You'll note my response to him was very different.

So he had some fancy ideas in the past that might have been based entirely upon the Gamecube/Wii having a PowerPC processor.

LMAO. He was spamming thread after thread both here and on AW.net for months about it being the ideal thing despite having had it explained to him in calm, patient manner why it wasn't such a hot idea.

After that, I'm not going to really take him all that seriously when it comes to hardware.

As for me, a 100x faster blitter sounds great, but I won't cry if it's only 50x faster in the end due to the FPGA,

It's all good.

[the_leander]

Other people, **cough**the_leander**cough**, just aren't too bright.

Now watch everyone as Hattig overlooks this too.

Remember folks, if you disagree with Lou, you are by his definition, subnormal.

[the_leander]

It's another to call someone out without a shred of merit behind it.

Yes, you hate being asked to back up your claims, we get it.

You started the insults.  Since mods seem to allow it, I'm simply returning the favor.

Actually, I think you'll find that you started throwing them around first.

But hey, it's not like either you or Hattig bother with little things like facts get in the way of your proving yourselves right.

All my math proved was that I was being consevative.  That fact clearly was lost on you as is much I gather.  Even Karlos knows what I said is quite possible...yet you still are in denial.

Not arguing possibilities, all I asked for was for you to provide evidence to back up your specific claims. Claims you have stated are facts.

What's genuinely terrifying is that Karlos has had to spell out to you the difference between theory and fact. Given your responses, I'm not entirely sure that it's a lesson that's sunk in.

You had no math to counter.

I'm still waiting for you to provide the benchmarks showing that the blitter is actually able to do what you claim it can. See Karlos' post for why.

Ad homs

Indeed.

--edit--

I'm done. Karl, you're right. I'll just leave anything with natami in the title in future.