I don't get it.

[the_leander]

what i don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. Everyone should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.

qfmft +2

[the_leander]

Amiga Inc, threatened them to use their OS3 property, in the end they settled by giving Hyperion exclusive rights to it. One of their represetatives when asked the question after the settlement responded that yes, AOS4 was built from OS3.1 source code (they have rights now, and can speak freely).

You may want to sit and think about this: They state in a court of law, under oath that OS4 is a clean re-write, that it contains no OS3.1 code whatsoever. Then the moment they "win", state publicly that in fact it does contain the code they previously denied.

You do understand that that is perjury, right?

--edit--

Oh wait, this was DAX saying this. Nevermind.

[the_leander]

the first part was just my hypothesis on what might have happened based on  dammy statement.

Whether or not it was a hypothesis, what you stated would amount to perjury if that was the case.

However since you seem so adamant

Only about your hypothesis.

you should point me out the exact document where they stated under oath about 3.1 not being used. (i'll be waiting for this).

I made no such claims. My response was based purely upon what you wrote in response to Dammy. Any statement sent to a court has a header on the top of it which reads:

I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the state of that the foregoing is true and correct.

So, if your hypothesis is in fact an accurate portrayal of events... Whoops.

Then again.. This is Ben Hermans and Bill McEwen we're talking about here and they're not exactly known for their honesty, so who knows.

[the_leander]

@The_Leander
 so you intervened (with no proof whatsoever) just for the pleasure of argumenting with me?

Who was arguing? I was merely pointing out that your hypothesis, if true had some serious strings attached. Nothing more nothing less.

but I heard several times (made an example) that OS3 "C" parts are used in OS4.

Any OS3.x C code from what I've read would almost certainly have been post Olaf Barfals cleanup for 3.5/9. As from what I've read the original source for 3.1 was an unholy mess of 68k Assembler, BCPL and C written for a mix of obscure (And probably now discontinued) compilers. The removal of most of the Assembler and BCPL for 3.5/9 was likely one of the main reasons for the apparent "sluggishness" of those releases compared to 3.1 with all the bells and whistles installed - the newer releases were far more loosely tied to the hardware.

I doubt original much if any, unaltered C= era C source code ever passed by Hyperions desk, and even if it did I can't see much of it having remained once they'd re-jigged the OS for hardware other than the original.

[the_leander]

Yeah sure, but unless you can check out the source code this is just another hypothesis, with the difference they can look at the source (both new and old) while you don't.
For the moment I'll take their word...

Well that "hypothesis" is based on their own words, what they stated in the court docs (yes, I did read them, all of them, have you?) As well as comments of other developers who have seen and commented publicly about the state of the original C= code.

Indeed to cover your implication of my lying about having ever visited AW.net there is a post there by Ben Hermans bigging up Olaf for all his hard work in unstuffing the 3.1 code. It is very similar to what was stated in the court case btw.

[the_leander]

Well I could tell you many things, but I would then need to post links to the parts where what I say is corroborated

Well, here are the Frieden brothers statements. Ben's corroboration is on AW.net as part of an interview he did. If you look through the rest of the case it comes up time and again that Hyperion ended up having to go through Olaf to get the 3.1 source code as AI didn't have it. Olaf had previously worked with AI on the 3.5 and 3.9 projects and not been paid.

You should understand that when you have people with access to the sources telling a story, no matter how we argue, unless we take a look at sources directly and compare, we are just speculating.

That's a very cute way of dismissing everything handed to you before you've even got it. Well played.

You know what their current stance is, and you cannot prove them wrong

Which would be a logical fallacy. But by the same token, the implication you keep making that something other than what their statements in court say requires you to back it up.

(even if you could provide links for the court statements which seems you cannot,

A-Inc VS Hyperion court documents. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?

 

it still proves nothing practically speaking.

Heh, so regardless of anything else you're just going to dismiss whatever it placed before you, fair enough.

Well at least you're consistent in your dismissal of anything you don't like. So much for your statements on AW about trying to end conflict.

We're done.

[the_leander]

@amigadave

Depending on how smart/willing to cut their losses the person is behind it is, I'd say very likely.

If the fella behind it had actually done market research before jumping in with both feet I suspect even the prototype as seen at the vintage fair would never have been commissioned.

[the_leander]

We discussed two things, 1)The X1000 similarity to the Devcon93 papers

Which they're not.

, and the 3.x Sourcecode actually used in OS4.

Ben Hermans interview on AmigaNews.de, where he explains Olaf Barthals role in it all and of course, the court docs I linked (link 3) to previously.

(hombre was no Amiga)

Hombre was AAA's final port of call. It's also questionable whether AOS would have been on a Nyx derived system since Dave himself has stated several times over the years that it was EOL even before C= collapsed.

 at 1993 devcon was to have the AAA chip-set as a  modular interchangeable board, the whole project was ditched, we know  that,

but if for a moment we want to forecast what would have  happened in case they made it

And here is where the sticking point is. AAA was dead, it was never going to be completed and Hombre was a last ditch effort to try to salvage some value out of the chipset. More on this below.

You told me that, "that could be said of any modern PC" but it would seem that you fail to realize that that's how the world went.

LOLWUT? I stated that in no uncertain terms that is precisely how the world went and how the PC was from the beginning. Do you even bother to read what you're writing?

X1000 is no Amiga because of lack of fabled chip sets is absurd.

I have never once said that. I stated that 1, that the X1k is no more an amiga than any modern PC. 2 (it isn't), that AAA was an architectural dead end which lead to hombre, which was C='s last project. (which you disputed) 3, that the X1k bears no resemblance to AAA on any but the most broad concept (IE modularity, beyond that sweet FA).

the C parts I talked about were in Intuition, and other components, they commented on several occasions the C part is used at least as a base for many things (now OS4.1Up2 has a lot of updated components so who knows).

That would be the C parts that Olaf had been refitting for OS3.5/9. And yes this is specifically mentioned both in the interview and the court docs if you bother to look. I even provided a link to the whole set of court docs and I genuinely recommend you go through them all. They provide fascinating insights into the way these people think as well as provide documentary evidence for what went on.

I believe them and don't see any evidence in the documents you posted, moreover if we don't check the actual sources, we'll never know for sure (is their words against yours).

The court found in Hyperions favour based on the balance of available evidence, based on the sworn testimony of the Friedens, Ben and Olaf. Again, if you have any evidence to back up your implications to the contrary, the onus is on you to provide it. Your moving the goalposts would be funny if it weren't so tragic and typical of fundie thinking when confronted with information they don't like.

Notice that it is you who is trying to be authoritative

That would be because I based it on the available evidence for my part.

I only post my impressions and explain "why" I have them.

Nice try sunbeam. Trying to squirm your way out after the fact wasn't funny the first time and it isn't funny now. You've been given more than enough evidence to show where you went wrong. Enough for a court of law to rule on in fact. Yet all you do is play this line of "oh well I was only hypothesising" or demand ever more evidence for something that is patently clear to see for everyone else.

If you want to continue to assert or imply that something other than the publicly available evidence I have provided to you happened, do so with your own evidence.

Like I said. We're done here.

[the_leander]

Wow, the price of the A1X1K has people sitting up and take notice over at The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/

So you noticed that too eh?

[the_leander]

Now, we've got a 1.8GHz core in this X1000 which is roughly equivalent to the G5 but using less power...

And costing 450euro and with no path for upgrade thereafter. This chip is quite simply the literal definition of a dead end. The company that designed them has been swallowed up and the only reason the PA6T is still being produced is because the US army had a contract for them. Simply put, these things are army surplus, which should suit doomy right down to the ground - they really are "mil spec".

The only other PPC on the horizon that might even be remotely competitive that I've heard of is a chip still on the drawing boards at Freescale which may or may not ever come to anything and even if it does will still be years away.

[the_leander]

Ah yes I forgot, around here its not that you want the moon-on-a-stick, its that it's not the moon-on-a-stick you were hoping for.

I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.

Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.

PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.

Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.

[the_leander]

Then "I dont get it!" How do you make a business case stack up for a product that no one will buy?  There must have been some market research done that has identified a product, a price point and a market, surely,,or Not?  Or no business case: Just a wing and a prayer?

You know that was one of the things that bothered me about this from the start. Where was the market research done? Even within the context of a hobbyist market such as the Amiga some measure of research should be done.

I mean consider this fella here. He went around various forums enquiring as to the saleability of a PPC console/dev box type unit. Even between the combined Linux PPC, MorphOS, Haiku and OS4 crowds he simply could not justify the development of a product based on PPC. There was no market for such a device even between all of those hobbyist sets.

If Trevor Dickinson had done even the most cursory of investigations into the viability of just the OS4 market, X1000 would never have even had its blueprints completed, much less prototypes commissioned.

[the_leander]

But that's just it, it's not for you, they've gone and made it seemingly despite the lack of a market and that's the cost. Some people will buy it though and it'll probably sell some for Linux and MorphOS too since there are die-hard PPCLinux fans too. Just because it's not for you and you wanted X, Y, or Z doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable thing for THEM to have made.

Oh where to start on this....

Yes you wanted power at less cost

Who wanted what now? I think you have me confused with someone who gives a crap about either of the AmigaNG camps.

Want to woo me or many of the others like me on this site? See the Minimig for how to do it right.

, but AOS4.x doesn't run on anything other than PPC so it was always going to be PPC despite the cost and lack of desktop CPUs because that's the little box we're locked in architecturally.

No, what you are is EOL architecturally. This thing isn't even in production any more.

So what "I don't get" is what all the complaining is about, it seems like everyone has a negative opinion to share about the X1000 but isn't willing to accept that their position isn't going to match the existing software (AOS4.x) or the companies (Hyperion etc) goals.

What you don't get is that even amongst the OS4 crowd this thing is grossly overpriced. The PPC linux market is gone, it's history. It is a dead parrot. See my followup post to gertsy regarding the last time someone actually bothered to do any market research into PPC.

Sure, by all means bring new stuff to a market, but even within the hobbyist set some research into the target audience, and even looking into just who it was this was targeted at.

but what's the use in complaining about the X1000 when at least someone has spent time, money and their own hard work bringing it to fruition?

Some of us don't like watching people getting robbed silly. If this chap had done some basic investigations into the marketplace X1000 as it is today wouldn't exist, chances are something like the Sam460 would have been created for a much more palatable price. This isn't about demonising the fella and it never was. This was simply wondering where he got his numbers from.

It's like slapping them in the face and say "you're shit, you should have done XYZ"

No one has said or implied that. Also quit making it personal. It isn't.

BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatics. Basically the most zealous of the "church of the one true amiga". These folks were the ones who left AO during the exodus when it became clear that Wayne wasn't going to accede to their demands to remove all mention of MorphOS AROS and anything else they didn't like the look of. They created AW.net and then later caused a second exodus in the wake of their scamming the community regarding the quality of the A1 to amigans.net.

[the_leander]

Maybe he knows something we don't ?

Almost certainly. But you have to admit, from the outside this looks like a complete hash from start to finish.

[the_leander]

I laughed hard at that gertsy, well played!