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Author Topic: What is best for video editing?  (Read 5439 times)

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Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« on: August 07, 2006, 06:09:00 PM »
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leirbag28 wrote:

this method will get you much hiogher quality, than if you just recorded straight onto a DVD recorder like the one I mentioned.


No it wont you are taking an analog source, compressing it to DV and then recompressing it to MPEG2, thats not going to make it higher quality.

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NEVER EVER EVER use a PC capture card for PC MAc or AMiga, if you want the highest quality possible.  NEVER!


Either the mac or the PC can capture full D1 uncompressed or even High Definition video, surely you realize thats better quality then the 5:1 compression you are getting on the DV tape input with no adjustments going into a freaking camera.  DV is not the end all source of video, its 4:2:0 color space itself is an issue, the compression is an issue, plus the audio issues inherent with the format.  I shoot it all the time, and usually put finalized products on it for proofing, but better to capture Analog sources on then capture cards with less or even no compression?  No way.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 07:37:33 PM »
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mschulz wrote:





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plus the audio issues inherent with the format.

What audio issues are you talking about? For my own use a 48kHz uncompressed 16-bit PCM provided by my camcorder is sufficient ;)



Two channels at 16 bit or 4 channels at 12 bit is what the spec provides.  Trying to pull a 5.1 or 7.1 out of that soup is a little bit of a mess.   I carry mine everywhere and love the video compared to my Hi-8 and other analog format cameras.  I just dont think telling someone (as the post I was answering did) that taking firewire into a computer is the best way to get analog into a computer especially if you are going to DVD eventually. Its not a bad way, its just not the best way.  In addition, instead of a camera (unless he wants a camera), a firewire bridge is at least as good a solution, and most likely cheaper and is really built for what he (and you) are doing with DV video.
    -Tig


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Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2006, 04:55:15 AM »
Dont buy Pinnacle, first of all they dont really exist anymore, they are a division of Avid now.   If you want a nice PC editor, wait a few weeks and get Speededit from Newtek, its  a software based editor that does everything from flash to uncompressed HD, gives you all kinds of DVEs (even more if you buy by my new DVECreator, in fact one of the upcoming updates for DVECreator converts the old Amiga wipes) and you'll feel like you have a toaster/flyer on steroids.   Get a DV bridge to bring analog video into your computers Firewire port and you'll be all set.  
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Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2006, 05:03:32 PM »
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leirbag28 wrote:
@Tigger

Judt because something is Digital, does not mean its better....many times Analog is wayyyy better.............example.............Laser Disk (Analog) looks bettter than VCD (Digital)

Also DV is better than DVD...DVD is higher compressed.



Thanks so much for proving my point.  If you goal is to make DVDs, then compressing first to DV and then to DVD is just adding compression artifact concatenation.  You can do it, but it in no way improves your product and in many ways can hinder it.


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@jose
Your method would work a step up from the one I mentioned because its Direct FIREWIRE no loss throught the DV compression.

DV is lossy 5:1 compression, not sure why you seem to be implying otherwise.


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YOu dont have to want a camera.......DONT look at it that way!  look at it as a Digital VCR.......dont bother with the Camera side of it..........There is NO Cheaper method than this, at this High Quality.

Sure there is, you are just using the DV chip to compress the analog signal to a DV stream to send it to a computer via IEEE-1394 (Firewire).   He can do that cheaper with equal or even better quality with a Firewire converter.

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No matter what anyone says...PC's give the worst results on Earth at times unless you have a SUPER PCI card......and High Powered Pentium4 that is virus free and runs smooth.   The PCI cards mostly do Analog input anyway and convert to a horrible looking digital form.   If you value your Videos.....Get a Cheap DV cam....in second place I would go with the Ultra Cheap CYBERHOME DVD recorder.

Thats why all the TV and movies we watch are edited on PCs or Macs, right?   Because they give the worst results?   I edit DV on my laptop.   PCI capture cards come in all forms, but lots of them these days capture in UNCOMPRESSED LOSSLESS format, as well as DV-25 or DV-50.   Its hard to argue with someone who thinks a $75 DVD recorder does better work then PCs at video capture.   Firewire cards for a PC are basically free these days, I paid $9 including shipping for my last one.


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Technical terms dont mean Nothing!  Results do!
I have a Few PCI and AGP Capture Cards including ATI All In Wonder Pros here............Even an old DCTV is better in some cases.

Technical terms mean everything, you just apparently don't understand them.  Lots of capture cards will even capture directly to DV format these days, though in reality if he wants to edit DV, a bridge, a couple hundred dollar PC will do just fine.
   -Tig
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 05:17:47 PM »
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leirbag28 wrote:
@Tigger

Here is why you are wrong on probably all counts that you said:


I'm not wrong on any point, but I'll get you straightend out a bit at a time.

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No one is talking about IMPROVING Original Footage!   I am talking about the CHEAPEST way of preserving it at the smallest possible effort required by the user and smallest cost possible with the highest results.


And then you went with a two step process that doesnt do much of what you are saying.

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hmmm whats cheaper........ a Laptop with a PCI card.........or a DVD recorder standalone?

If he owns a desktop or a laptop, then buying the DVD Recorder standalone surely isnt the cheapest way to go.  In addition, you can make better DVDs with a computer then with a standalone recorder

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I think you get the point.   And I got an opinion for you........I HIGHLY doubt Movie Studios use PCI cards that can be purchased for $9.......

If they are bringing footage in over IEEE-1394 they most surely could be using a $9 card or the ports on the motherboad if they have them (as most desktops and virtually all laptops do these days).   Its a tranfer bus, whats next in your opinion, Movie studios cant use IDE Harddrives?

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Im thinking they use Much Higher end equipment and cards costing in the THousands...otherwise what you are comparing is just as good as a Video Toaster Flyer.

If its DV footage, any format, including HDV, a better card doesnt improve the footage.   The beauty of IEEE-1394 (Firewire) interface implmented for video is that a direct digital copy is sent down the wire, a very simple card allows the computer to write it to the harddrive.  In fact Digital Domain (who have 2 oscars and 3 emmys) at least used to use the exact same $9 firewire card as me, because I hooked them up with them when they needed 20 of them.  I've got a VT[4], I've got Vegas, Avid and Premiere on my PC, I have Final Cut Studio on my Mac. Was one of the leading third party guys for the Toaster/Flyer and owned the first Digital Broadcaster outside of Digital Micronics (Who later became Applied Magic).

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Macs and PC's can indeed capture excellent quality at exttremely low prices........but thats usually coming from FIREWIRE...........being transfered from some Digital source that already did the capturing!  a DV camera!  

A DV bridge (or converter) does the same trick, is cheaper, and usually better then the Analog to digital inputs of a cheap DV camera as you are suggesting.  And again I find it interesting that you are suprised people use $9 firewire cards and then go into a big rant about how cool firewire is.

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Doing it through a PC is too much hassle and cost if you want things done legally.

What exactly do think I was implying that was illegal?

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for the typical guy, the route I mentioned is best and cheapest and most effort free and still looks darn awesome.

Buy two pieces of equipment he doesnt have instead of using his PC and buying one piece of equipment?

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I would first recommend a DV camera, second place would be a DVD recorder..........

Getting it on DV camera doesnt help the issue.  Taking it to a DVD recorder is ok, but he might as well put it on his computer and make much better DVDs.

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but PC with Windows just suck

Except of course you can edit video better on it, then any other system.   Including HD, for not alot of money.   They are so much faster then any Amiga thats its silly to talk as if they are the same device (ie computers) and there is so much software available that you can load a new piece every day for the rest of your life and never run out.

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Apple is calling theirs: MultiDesktops............tsk tsk tsk..........these companies are getting the credit for evertything Amiga invented first.

And they are much cooler then anything even dreamed up by the Hype Twins for OS4.

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Anyway, I will rejoice in the fact that I still think Amigas Multitask the most properly.

Except of course, that Windows XP (and before it NT & 2000) multitask much better then an Amiga.
    -Tig
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 05:21:23 PM »
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Jule wrote:
 Before Katrina wiped out my editing studio, I was using a Toaster Flyer in a 4000 to edit my video and then transfered it to my pc to burn to DVD.



Jule,

Lost track of you after your other post after Katrina.  Was going to offer you copies of RenderFX, Promix and Flyer Utilities as part of my Katrina recovery plan, if you dont already have them.  Send me a PM or post here you can get attachments on your email and I'll email them to you in the next few days.
     -Tig
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
     -Fleecy Moss, Gateway 2000 show
 

Offline Tigger

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Re: What is best for video editing?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 10:39:59 PM »
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tonyvdb wrote:

Tig, I would be intrested in the Newtek software that you mention do you have any other information on it?
Thanks


Tony,

The program is called SpeedEdit, the URL is below.   Its the same editor they will be shipping with VT[5], which is an improvement from VT4 version, which takes itself back to the original Toaster/Flyer editor interface.  It list for $495, but lots of dealers have it for $50 or so off, it should be shipping in the next month or too.   Its PAL and NTSC capable, completely resolution independent and really was impressive at both NAB and Siggraph demos.   I'll post here when it ships (or after it ships if it ships during my vacation) but I think its really going to take a big chunk of the PC Market, and there is going to be several cool plugins available for it when it ships including my DVECreator which actually will probably ship first since the DVE format isnt changing between VT4 & VT5. In addition, how cool will it be to use "The World's Fastest Video Editor"  :)  
     -Tig

Speededit
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
     -Fleecy Moss, Gateway 2000 show