Video editing - some advice please!!

[Tigger]

Jule wrote:
A fully outfitted Toaster Flyer does not come anywhere near the cost of a new VT2.  There is one such system for sale on this site right now for 2000.  Furthermore, the lightwave that you get with the VT2 is not a full version of lightwave and in my opinion is far inferior to the lightwave 5.0 you get with the toaster-flyer.  You do no need a vhs system to get the signal into the toaster flyer - I feed the composite signal from my Sony VX-2000 mini DV camcorder directly into the Flyer with no need for tbc or any other equiptment getting in the way.  The signal quality is great.  The editing is very fast.  The processor speed is irrelevant except when rendering in lighwave, in which case you can network the Amiga to your pc using screamer net and use the faster processor power of the pc; or you can just let it render overnight while you sleep.  For basic editing I do not believe there is anything faster on any platform.  Again, once I had all the clips arranged it took less than 5mins to "render" an hours worth of video and begin playing it back to be recorded to mini-dv.

This isn't just to Jule, but I quoted his message since it made comments about several things that needed to get cleared on both sides.  

1) MJPEG  -  Until just 5 years ago almost every NLE used MJPEG, on the Amiga either the Draco or a Digital Broadcaster had equal quality to the high end AVID system.

2) Flyer quality - with a clean signal especially from a DV camera, HQ5 mode is only a 2.5 compression and give a lossless compression in many cases, its editor (duplicated and improved in VT2) is frankly amazingly fast to edit with.   Also the flyer technically isnt rendering when you push play, its copying pieces of clips to alternate chains to allow a smooth playback through the toaster.   It renders if you use RenderFX(though really quickly) , it renders if you use lightwave or ImageFX too.

3) VT2 (and for that matter VT3 announced today) has the ability to do uncompressed video along with dozens of compressed formats of video all mixed up together, it also does D1 video, which is technically better then the D2 be get with the Flyer.   However the VT2 card is 2000, and the you need a P4 for it to make its home in.   However the VT2 & 3  are also dual standard so NTSC/PAL doesnt matter, the Flyer is only an NTSC device, so our friend in Sweden probably doesnt want to use it.
     -Tig
PS I am going to be selling my very nice Flyer system in the next few weeks, if you want the system that RenderFX and Promix were written on, look for my post or email me in the next few weeks.  

[Tigger]

The $2000 covers it all. There is no pc system, or mac system, that can do what that flyer system can do at twice that cost.

I am going to disagree here.  First of all VT2 does everything that the Flyer does.   I have both of them plus my mac editor (and until recently a digital broadcaster) in my edit suite, and the new toaster will do everything a flyer will do.   In addition,  a P4 computer for a home for a VT2 will not cost you $2000, I probably have less then half that spent on mine.   So a VT2 system more expensive then a flyer system??  Probably so, over 4K as you were saying?? No way.   In addition, I did the last Lightwave 5.0 tapes available, so I am pretty familiar with the program, and I cant think of anything in 5.0 that isnt in Lightwave Express (which is bundled with the new Toaster).
    -Tig  

[Tigger]

mips_proc wrote:

BTW:  Tig did you check out Aura 2.5b I just started to UVMap with the new Lightwave preview addition ... its pretty badass..

Yeah the only problem is I have to stop rendering effects to play with Lightwave and UVMapping, might need to build a new Lightwave RenderFarm if this keeps up  , or may just build a whole new computer for VT3, eager to go see it in April.
   -Tig

[Tigger]

Jule wrote:
The second issue is the prices discussed.  I am on the Amiga section of ebay every day and I know what complete Flyer videoediting systems go for - about $1500.  Now what about the VT2.  Newtek will sell the VT2 package sans computer or drives for a mere $2995.  I understand that some other companies might have deals that drop that down to $2500 from time to time, but a cursory search of the internet did not find any today.  But let me err on the side of Tigger and Mipps and assume 2500.  

First of all you are comparing a used system to a new from the dealer, a used Amiga Video Toaster to the new price of a VT2, the VT2 prices on Ebay are lower then from a dealer and I found dealer prices at $1895.     Most dealers had then at $1995 until a few days ago when they increased to $2495, but are including for free the VT3 upgrade.

Next, there is the pc.  If you want a pc that fits Newtek's basic recommendations it seems to me it will cost about 2000.  Tigger says about half that for his computer.  Let's compromise and say 1500.  Ok, thats 4000 right there and that does not include video drives.  In order for the VT2 to really outdo the Flyer on basic editing it requires a raid 0 stripped array and a hard drive controller capable of dealing with that.  I'll let Mips and Tigger tell me how much that costs, but I am sure it is not small change.  I am guessing that $500 would barely get you in the door.  That's $4500 vs $1500, or $3000 difference.  I tell you what, you guys give me the 3k and I will get the VT2 and we can end this debate.  Or I can keep going on editing on a system that is not only effective and fast, but is a special pleasure to use because it is on my favorite computer, running my favorite operating system.  

My motherboard was $150, my processor $150, my
memory $150, Video card is $100, $200 for drives.   Thats $750, the Raid controller was on my motherboard or it would have been much cheaper.  Thats 2 hours of uncompressed (or 12 hours of DV footage) for the the system.   I dont think $750 is that much more expensive then a 4000 with a PPC or 060 card especially a tower configuration, and its alot more computer, its definitely not costing twice as much as the 4000 right??   So the difference here is the Newtek products.   Old Toaster+Flyer+TBC4+WF/FS+Flyer Drives to get you in the same ballpark as VT2, can you get that alot cheaper then $1895???   Maybe, do you often find that for less the 1/2 that number?? No.   The flyer was great editor in its time (understand it shipped in 1994),  With the exception of the enhancments I and others did for 4.2, there hasnt been a major upgrade for the system and there never will be.   8 years after it shipped, its showing its age, and newteks new editor (which is much cheaper then what we payed for toasters and flyers before) is a much superior product.  As for the final comment, Jule, I dont care what editor you use, I just dont think you should lie about how you cant buy an editor for 4K that will compete with the flyer.  Thats a lie, my VT2 beats my flyer in every catagory, and I own every addon for the flyer plus have unique pieces of software that I wrote and never sold.  
    -Tig

[Tigger]

Bodie wrote:
Hate to barge in here, but out of curiosity, is there any alternative to the Toaster for PAL Amigas?

Amiga solutions for PAL video editing.   Draco & Digital Broadcaster both would do PAL or had PAL versions available.  Due to Motorola, the Amiga Video Toaster was never available as a PAL device.  The x86 Video Toaster does both PAL & NTSC.
     -Tig

[Tigger]

Since I work for a Linux-company I had to pull some strings to get to install Windows on it, but I now have permisson to have Win2k for 'testing purposes', as they like to call it.
So, is Adobe Premiere/ After Effects worth the 'hefty' pricetag, or is there something else that I should have a serious look at?
Now bear in mind that I'm still just a humble hobby-user...  I ask the pros for advice ;-)

FIrst of all don't buy anything this month, because NAB is first week of April.   You can get a free version of Aura DV by going to a video toaster demo still I believe, otherwise its on the cover disk of a british video magazine two months ago, and you can still get a back issue for $9, which is well worth spending.   Rumors continue to spread that a software only version of the PC Video Toaster (focussed towards DV) will debut at NAB along with 3.0.   If it does, you would be better off getting TEd (Toaster Edit)  with its included Aura, CG & Lightwave Express then Adobes software and its liable to be cheaper.   You already can capture video to your computer via firewire, if you dont have a firewire source, you may want to look at either a firewire bridge, or a DV camera with analog IN & OUT.
      -Tig

[Tigger]

A couple of comments to both Siggy & Unit21.  NAB start on April 7th.   New software (and maybe some surprises) will be shown by a number of people.   Newtek's VT 3.0 has been announced a standalone software only DV version may show its head at NAB as well.   Vegas Video 4.0 with its DVD option is also something to look at.   Though Adobe & AVID are well known names, I frankly think they are overpriced for what you get, and it will be interesting to see what they have available next month.
     -Tig
 

[Tigger]

Yep - the day after my birthday, and right here in Las Vegas. I'm looking forward to going and checking it all out.  

If anyone else is going we should do the hookup.

I'm going though I will only be there for the first day.   You need to be sure to go by the Newtek booth, and come to the Toaster Party, Monday night.   If you dont have a pass for the show, let me know, and I'll email you info to get a freebie.
    -Tig
PS To those not attending, Newtek at least will be streaming their demos, so you can watch at least that much of the show on your computer.