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Offline orgamsatron

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Re: PC Demos
« on: August 11, 2003, 07:46:36 AM »
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carls wrote:
Relais wouldn't even run on my computer because I have a GF 4 MX 440 (so much for hardware abstraction, eh?). This is a card that without problems can run UT2003 in 640x480 and Quake 3 in 1024x768.


This is copied directly from the "Relais" readme file:

   .  why does it require a geforce 3?

        the bump mapping requires vertex shaders, and those are only
        supported in hardware on geforce 3 or later cards. also
        we use 4 pass multitexturing, n*m textures, 8 stage
        register combiners and other extensions only available on those
        cards. it does not run on a geforce 4 mx or go because nvidia
        screwed up the naming of those cards and they are
        actually just gef 2 cards when looking at the specs.


Summary:  Quake and the like don't use programmable shaders.  "Relais" does.

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Protozoa started but I couldn't stand watching it because it was too slow, it felt like maybe 5 fps or something - and this was with an effect that runs smoothly in many Amiga AGA demos.


"Protozoa's" code *is* slow, but even still, there are insane amounts of transluceny in every scene.  In fact, the whold damn thing is see-through!  This really takes a massive toll on any graphics card, especially an MX card.  Games are primarily opaque, with a bit of translucent fire or smoke or similar.

There are demos that will run decent speed on your card, but anything from 2002 or beyond will chug like a fat kid climbing stairs.

Incidently, there were a tonne of cool demos released at Assembly 2003 this past weekend.  Thanks to all sorts of nifty things like post-render effects, some even brought my Ti4200 to it's knees...
 

Offline orgamsatron

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Re: PC Demos
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2003, 06:45:33 PM »
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carls wrote:
@orgamsatron
But that's my whole point...
If I want to impress my friends with my computer I could buy a GF FX and download one of nVidia's own demos designed particularly for that hardware.

If I want a demo group to impress me with their skills, they'll have to do better than "Your 64MB AGPx4 graphics card is too slow" ;-)


And like I said, stick to older demos.  Simple.  Today's newer demos need programmable shaders, which requires both the hardware and a fast CPU to run the realtime interpreter.

The other thing you might try is update drivers, turn off anisotropic (this gives a big framerate hit), turn of antialiasing, etc..

Try these for your card:
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2002/assembly02/demo/32_degrees_in_the_shade_by_yodel.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2002/buenzli02/demo/orion-amour-party-release.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2001/vip3/demo/x%2Brr%2Bf_couloir14.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2002/assembly02/demo/clone_by_critical_mass.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/demos/groups/haujobb/hjb_elef.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2001/remedy01/demo/accel/flt_ettv_final.zip
http://www.idf.net/gods/demos/gds-ifut.zip
http://www.idf.net/gods/demos/gds-toys.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/1999/theparty99/demo/accel/e_kasp21.zip
http://www.digital-murder.org/download/just_a_touch_of_funk_fixed.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2001/theparty01/demo/medium.zip
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2000/takeover00/demo/vip2.zip

You also haven't said what your CPU might be.  Don't forget, these things are running overtop Windows, which has a HUGE overhead.  (Surely as an Amiga user you must know this...)

There's plenty of impressive stuff for your card, just search a little harder.  Just don't expect to run Raw Confessions or anything similar.
 

Offline orgamsatron

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Re: PC Demos
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2003, 07:29:26 PM »
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I don't think you get my point, though. To me, demos are supposed to look awesome even on slower hardware


How does one define "slower hardware" on a PC?  A 486DX, or the budget GeForceFX cards?  Both can be considered slow from certain perspectives.

Contrary to yourself, there are people in the PC demoscene who complain current productions don't use enough new features found on the Radeon 9000 or GeForceFX series.  It really is a different scene from all other platforms, you're just going to have to accept that.

Try the GameBoy Advance scene, that might be more your style.



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- compare for example The Castle, Little Nell or Relic running on AGA and a 50MHz 060 and a demo that requires a 2.2GHz P4 and a GF4 Ti4200.


But these are just relatively simple (by today's standards) 3D flybys running at far less than 60 fps in super low-resolution.  Your graphics card can easily run demos similar to this at 1024x768 @ 60 fps.

Okay, I know this is a flawed comparison, but take Relic.  It runs at about 160x120 @ 30 fps with an '060 @ 50 MHz.  To run it at 1280x960 @ 30 fps, which contains exactly 64 times more pixel surface area, would essentially require 64 times more computing power.  50 MHz x 64 = 3.2 GHz.

Of course this is a pretty flawed comparison for obvious reasons, but it does show that PC demos aren't as slow as you seem to think.



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Of course the PC demo should be fast! Where did optimization go?


Optimized like games?  They now take several years to develop, a few dozen staff, and millions of dollars.  What demogroup has those resources?

Making a good demo with modern hardware requires a much larger precentage of time devoted to design.  Moppi Productions only produce one demo a year, and their code seems far from optimized.  Yet the design, content, and style of their productions is quite startling.  Stunning stuff.