AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site

[System]

im torn on this matter

[System]

Have you ever thought how stupid petitions are? they're like a form of facisism, what you have is a bunch of people saying hey we don't like this, and here we are a mob you have to change because of us.

Its completely one sided, what about people who agree with Amiga's policy, shouldn't they're views be heard as well? With a petition, you only hear one side of the story which makes them even less relevant.

I say we start a counter petition, and also embrace democracy and have a vote on whether we agree or disagree with the whole thing.

Then we can forget the whole thing because it makes about as much sense as arguing about who ate the last godamn cookie in the jar.

[System]

@Rodney

Seems like all the people they deleted from the list were all those with an opposing view. This petition doesnt really show alot, unless it can show that the number of people wanting AmigaOS to run on POP hardware outnumbers those who think the licence is fair.

a petition isnt like voting. there is only one reason for signing a petition and that is when you agree with what it says and want to support it, in hopes of persuading another to your point of view.

By deleting those signitures, you complely delete any chance of that happening. Now it looks like 370 people who appose the licence compared to the few thousand or so that think its fair.

the purpose of a petition is not to paint a picture of contrasting views, opposers signatures have no place there, its like trolling.

@Akura

Have you ever thought how stupid petitions are? they're like a form of facisism, what you have is a bunch of people saying hey we don't like this, and here we are a mob you have to change because of us.

whether you agree with it or not isnt it their right to speak up if they disagree? Its only a petition for God's sake.

Its completely one sided, what about people who agree with Amiga's policy, shouldn't they're views be heard as well? With a petition, you only hear one side of the story which makes them even less relevant.

and why should those who support the views of this petition really give a damn about showing the number of opposing views? what responsibility is it of theirs to do this?

im not really sure if your suggestion about starting your own petition was infact sarcastic or not, but if you want opposing views to be heard thats exactly what you do.

[System]

@gadget master and seehund

I didn't say anarchy I said Fascism, theres a difference and if you don't understand what it is then you shouldn't comment. Caling me ignorant because you didn't read my post doesn't prove anything of the sort.

From dictionary.com

   1.  A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship.

You might not think my comment wasn't constructive but why not? Why can't you look at my comment deconstruct it and refute it, I don't see anyone doing that here, is it because you don't know how,  or because you can't.

I just see this petition as a petty minded attempt to undermine anything constructive in the Amiga Community, suddenly a bunch of people suddenly think they know all about computers and markets, and whats best for Amiga.

They had their chance all through the time when Amiga had no owners and no direction and they just sat on their laurels and did nothing, and now when its finally moving they are throwing every spanner in the works they can. Damaging the very companys and people that kept the Amiga alive.

As for the counter petition I really couldn't be bothered to start one, I don't feel strongly enough about this, certainly not to produce an equally ridiculous petiton, with virtually no real clout. The petitioning system on that site isn't rigourous enough, anyone can go on there and spoof signings, create imaginary people. Which asks the question how can any of the signatorys be considered genuine. Its less useful than a vote because at least then you see both sides of the story.

I am only here to make people think, I play devils advocate.

My issue with petitions is that they are one sided and someone does have to pick up the alternative view to support it.

But what happens if they don't? Does that mean that there is no one opposed to it, do the most fanatical people win because they are willing to make an effort to publicise their cause?

As for being narrow minded your the one being narrow minded i'm giving my opinion and your saying because I don't agree I should shut up. They are entitled to their opinion, and I respect that, just the fact they've made the effort to publicise there case shows they deserve to be respected. But that doesn't make them immune to critism, even if they don't listen to it.

I'm not worried they will get their way what happens in the Amiga market will have no real effect on me, if it all breaks down I will be better off finacially and I'll be able to sit back and smuggly say i told you so.

What annoys me is the way these things work.  The way society works,  the way the Amiga Community works, the way the whole world works.

And your post just reinforces that.

[System]

Ok lets try this again.

My point is not that the idea/arguments aren't valid.

My point is that I don't feel that the right way of representing this idea has been taken.

My point was that Petitions have an element of fascism in them. They are one sided they strengthen a view, they do not represent any alternatives.

I question why this form was used to put forward this view was it so opposing comments/view points couldn't be incorperated into the argument.

In a democracy surely these kinds of methods shouldn't be needed, A poll would be more enlightening because it would provide both sides of the story.
Why wasn't this idea presented as a poll? perhaps because the creator didn't feel that the results would end up supporting his view.

That is my point.

And apart from that the petition online site doesn't do petitions in a very good way. there is no way people can be held to account for their views because anyone can post anything they want. its not secure. And the petition can be editted, to remove anything that the creator doesn't want to include, doesn't sound very good.
When you can remove anyone from the list what makes it questionable that the final petition has any value. You are basically removing all the points of using a petition in the first place. As a way to express your views and make them count, because if someone doesn't want you to have signed it they can just remove you.

Hope that cleared a few things up.

[System]

To deconstruct your post as yo would like me to:

So you think petions = Facism (Very broad minded and intelligent of you)

To put you straight dear fellow I will use your source of definitions i.e. Dictionary.com

No if you read my inital post I didn't say petition was the same as fascism.

Fascism is a form of government, a petition is not a form of government. Quite clearly not the same I said and I quote

"they're like a form of facisism"

 they share some very similar ideas. If you can't see what I meant I could be wrong, or you don't understand me. Clearly you don't understand me and perhaps you are upset at me because you haven't really answered my questions or read my posts properly.
I really don't mind people insulting me, but when your trying to pass off those insults as arguments against what I say I just have to point out that its not helping you one bit.

To put you straight dear fellow I will use your source of definitions i.e. Dictionary.com

pe·ti·tion Pronunciation Key (p-tshn)
n. A solemn supplication or request to a superior authority; an entreaty.
A formal written document requesting a right or benefit from a person or group in authority.
Law.
A formal written application requesting a court for a specific judicial action: a petition for appeal.
The judicial action asked for in any such request.
Something requested or entreated.


So how does making a request to a higher authority equal fascism?

Again you missed my intial point and so this is irrelevant its not fascism because fascism is a form of government you've proved again you didn't read my original post.

Posting definitions doesn't make your case any clearer if you aren't making a valid point. Add that to the fact that there is more than one definition of a petition and you can pick and choose whichever one fits your idea's best.

Thats you opinion right ? Nothing constructive about that. you have failed to follow up with any sound reasoning.

That is my opinion yes unless stated anywhere in my post you can consider everything I say my opinion. I tried to use my girl friends opinion but she keeps it locked in the bureau.

As for the counter petition I really couldn't be bothered to start one, I don't feel strongly enough about this,

So if you felt strongly enough about it and the petition system was rigorous you would then start a petition? something you call facsism. So does that make you a Fascist or a hypocrite?

No I wouldn't start a petition because I really can't be bothered. Not because I don't think petition online is good enough.
I'm sure with a secure server and some perl script I could create a secure enough petition.
I don't feel strongly about the subject of Amiga being on "Open Hardware" or not to start a petition.

Call me a fascist call me a hypocrite whatever you want your arguments still hinge the fact you think I said that a petition is fascism. I did not I have since posted a clarifying post about what I meant.

You have to listen to what I say and then refute them not what you think I said.

remember I am not defending the content of the petition , because I dont agree with it. What I stand by are my comments that defend the right for someone to set up petitions.

Thats fine this is an idealogical discussion about me being a hypocritical fascist dictator because I speak freely about my opinions in such matters and my opinions are not what everyone accept or expects.

Its just a shame no one really comes up with a good argument against me preferably one which doesn't involve insulting me, because that really weakens an argument.

You are the one thinking like a dictator and you are the one that is dissillusioned with the whole world.

Am I?  You think you can make such statements about what I am thinking by not even reading my posts?

You only have to refute my statements. explain why a petition does not have fascist overtones, why its a legitimate way to put forward ideas in a democratic society.

It might involve research however look at fascist regimes, and democracy look at definitions and put some of your own work into it, its not enough to just quote someone else's ideas at me, they should be your own. And if they are valid, I will accept them.

Facts that support my idea that a petition is a form of fascism.

A petition is started by a minority of people to put forward and idea, and to collect people to support this idea. Irrelevant to whether its is a good idea, or it benefits people.
A petition makes itself know by using propaganda.
A petition is only interested in its own agenda.
It only represents those that believe in it.
Its propaganda is biased, and often resorts to FUD(Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) to make its case.

I think those cover a few points of fascism.

Some people would say you sound like a social misfit and would reccommend getting some help.

I will only say analyze your comments so far and try to see how they make you look from a third persons perspective. Then reflect and try to improve your understanding of the way the world works.

Is that a roundabout way of saying you think I'm a social misfit? And would recommend me getting some help?

Do you think we should do that if someone doesn't agree with you, if someone has beliefs that just don't gell, we should get them some help, brain wash them to our way of thinking because its better.

Hell why don't we just get all the people we don't agree with and kill them all, we could build large bathrooms and then fill them with gas. Yeah what a great Idea.

Trust me I do analyse my comments, I think about things far more than your average person and whilst I may not be right, I'd rather people think about why I am or am not right, rather than about how I should be silenced because I am a "social misfit".

I'm quite happy with my understanding of the way the world works, some people might call me cynical, paranoid and jaded, or maybe they just realise that I might be right about a few things.

Truth is things in this world aren't inherently bad, it only takes someone to use them for bad things. A petition isn't inherantly good or bad, but it can be used in a way which defeats the point of petitions.
Democracy isn't inherently good or bad, its only the way it is applied.

Too many people like to take things and twist them to their own ends, for instance imagine someone taking a post, misquoting it, or selectively quoting it to provide a skewed view of what was said. It happens all the time on the internet, and the only thing stopping it is honesty.

[System]

Akaru wrote:

Why wasn't this idea presented as a poll? perhaps because the creator didn't feel that the results would end up supporting his view.

Or perhaps, like the responsable netizens they are, they knew full well putting a poll on any site would just spark off yet another massive flamewar.

And a petition wouldn't start a flame war? I suppose in one instance your right, as there is no one making comments against the petition there is no one to vehmently oppose it whether they are right and wrong.

I'm sure however the last thing on their minds was the hope not to start a flame war, I expect it was more about proving their point.

It's a free world. They chose a petition. It's their right.

I would usually argue that its not a free world, but that would just muddy the waters, it is their right to start a petition just as it is my right to question it.

[System]

it is their right to start a petition just as it is my right to question it

just as it is for others to question your questioning

[System]

just as it is for others to question your questioning

Exactly but are people questioning my questioning or attacking my questioning. Or just attacking me.

Are they doing it because they disagree with me or because they are scared I am right?

It seems like its all knee jerk reactions because I mentioned fascism in the same sentence as other words.

[System]

Quick post another news item about the petition before it dies totally!