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Offline BLTCON0

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Re: Wanted: A500 Parts
« on: November 11, 2017, 03:03:24 PM »
Quote from: gizmo350;832972
3. 512KB trap door expansion. Must have 16 IC's on board.
Any specific reason for the 16 chips?
(e.g. matching aesthetics? old Agnus refresh limitations?)
 

Offline BLTCON0

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Re: Wanted: A500 Parts
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2017, 03:23:57 PM »
Quote from: gizmo350;833006
Exactly... it's for a Rev 3 motherboard. :)

Well, if you don't mind the aesthetics(*), Commodore's A501 (rev6C, the 4-chip version) does include a refresh workaround which can be jumper-enabled.

Even simpler of course is to just install a 8372A Agnus, pin41 on rev3/rev5 boards is shorted to ground so the 8372A will default to NTSC, making it a drop-in replacement for the 8370 in NTSC rev3/rev5's.
Then you can naturally use whichever expansion you want :-)
But maybe you want to keep the rev3 as original as possible (**).

(*) if the A501 comes with its metal shielding, nothing will be visible anyway (but you'll have to temporarily dismount it to effect the jumper change)

(**) Still, the original Gary (the Toshiba-made one with a TCxxxx name all rev3's shipped with) should be swapped for the revised MOS/CSG version. It has a bug that slows the Amiga down in certain cases. You can circumvent it with some additional circuitry, but it's far simpler to replace the Gary and keep the board "untouched".
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 03:26:05 PM by BLTCON0 »
 

Offline BLTCON0

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Re: Wanted: A500 Parts
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 02:33:53 AM »
Quote from: gizmo350;833014
So, now that you mention the Gary chip on a rev 3 board (this is great info you%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8217;re providing BLTCON0) I knew I had to take a second look at it %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8216;cause when replacing the MOS CIAs I noticed that the Gary chip was the only one (besides the CPU) that was not a MOS chip and I wondered if it had been replaced by someone. It%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8217;s labeled CBM 5719 / TC17G008AP-0025 / Japan 8713EAI. So, is this the Toshiba made chip?
It sure is

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Would you happen to have a part # for the MOS Gary chip?
The part number is still 5719. But the marking on the corrected chip is either MOS or CSG (they're the same thing, Commodore bought out MOS and later renamed it to Commodore Semiconductor Group. Earlier Amigas have chips with a MOS stamp, later ones the same chips with a CSG stamp).
So, basically, if it doesn't have the TC marking, it's a corrected Gary :-)

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But other than this IC, yes, I want to keep this board as original as possible (gloating purposes, ya know?).
Yup.
Attached is the fix, just in case you decide to keep the original TC Gary and modify the board (it's actually just a transistor, not really a huge modification per se).

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I had two 512KB expansions and one wouldn%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8217;t work with the rev 3 board. I stashed a keyboard and that expansion board and can%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8217;t find them anywhere!

Oh, and how did I know about the 16 IC%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8217;s? Cause Jens said so%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8230;. LOL

https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/A512.html#filter=*

Actually the schematics say so, Jens just replicated the A501 rev6C circuitry, this info also exists IIRC in some Commodore tech-info document from back in the day.
I wrote something about this on Amibay a few months ago - a few rev6A boards missed the newer Agnus so they couldn't properly refresh their very onboard RAM :-) so an equivalent "refresh fix" had to be implemented onboard.

What is not said is why this refresh bug exists at all.
See the 16-chips are 256Kx1 each, and the 4-chips are 256Kx4 each, so since the number of rows (which determines the refresh cycles required) is the same in both cases (256K = 262144 = 2^18, so 9 address lines alternatively used as rows/columns provide the necessary 2^9 rows times 2^9 columns = 2^18 locations each chip provides) there is no obvious reason for a problem to exist.
The secret (and cause of the problem) is that esoterically the 256Kx1 chips are actually x4 chips, so the highest address line is not used in the traditional row/column sense but as a 2-bit (muxed, 1 bit during row selection time and another 1 bit during column selection time) selector/decoder for one of the 4 bits in the x4 group. So one less line for the actual row signals that way and the Agnus needs only an 8-bit counter.
But on the 256Kx4 chips all 9 address lines act as row selectors, and so the older 8370/71 Agnus (which was only aware of the 256Kx1 chips), only having an 8-bit refresh counter, cannot fully enumerate all memory locations leading to the refresh inefficiency when used (without a workaround) in conjunction with 256Kx4 chips.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:43:08 AM by BLTCON0 »
 

Offline BLTCON0

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Re: Wanted: A500 Parts
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 01:32:41 PM »
Quote from: gizmo350;833025
@BLTCON0
I had no idea that there was a buggy Gary
For your further reading pleasure, this was posted on USENET by Bryce Nesbitt exactly 30 years ago (dated Sept. 16, 1987):

"A reliable source just told me that early Amiga 500s have a defect that
causes Dtack to be handled improperly.  The result is a wait state,
slowing the machine down quite a bit.
This may be the source of the rumors that the A500 (and A2000) are slower
than the A1000.  (See the tester program I posted a while back that has
shown that the production models at least have no basic speed penalty.)

The problem has to do with the GARY chip.  Sounded like a CMOS output
was not converted to TTL properly... but I'm not sure about that.  The
fix is a single transistor
.  The reliable source learned this at a
A500 service traning course given by Commodore.  Presumably the problem
and it's fix will be common knowlege at service centers soon."

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or different revisions of the A501 - and would never have known that there is a refresh compatibility jumper - especially since the A501 has that full shield soldered shut (these are actually fairly easy to disassemble).
This is where the schematics come in useful :-)
The last page of the A500 rev6A schematics details the A501 rev6C - the jumpers in discussion are JP2 and JP3 and, apparently, the refresh fix is factory-enabled.

Quote
Ordered a MOS Gary IC... NOS...

Thanks again BLTCON0 :)

You're welcome :-)