New to Whdload what's The crack?

[superfrog76]

Honestly, I have my own opinion on the whole WHDLoad, which is not really a good one.

So far, I am all for supporting software: if someone makes a new software, I may buy it if I need it; but things with WHDLoad are different....

And just to give some background: I make quite a lot of money, so 40 dollars are not a big deal in the end (I spend probably half of it every day at lunch...so I just have 2 salads for 2 days and I can pay for it), and I have always purchased original games and Amiga software, when it was sold in stores. I am so adamant on these things (being a developer on Windows OS, sadly, but this is what sell nowadays), that if my original would get damaged, I would buy again the same game.

At first, I thought that WHDLoad was free; like many things nowadays on the Amiga; then I realized that it was a sort of shareware...well, I live with Winrar trial since 2001 probably; it gives you the bothersome message and then it just works; I told myself that I can live with the delay message.

Then I figured out that the software cause errors on the games on purpose, or lock the OS forcing you not only to reboot, but to power cycle to clean the memory. Unless you pay the ....registration.

Again, it is fine to "force" people to buy your product, but I see it as quite aggressive behavior...I would be fine with a finite amount of run, then you need the license, if it is not slapped on my face.

The second issue that I have is legal: the whole WHDLoad depends on games, which are basically still covered by copyright. AFAIKT, nobody gave written authorization to the guys that write WHDLoad, to sell an application that allow people to run their games on the hdd, and make profit out of it.
Altho they are making money on this, and the fact that the application is totally useless, unless you have games to install, reinforce the point that it is a derived app, depending from a copyrighted piece of software. Different from a  plugin that you may use in an app like 3dsmax, because it won't add any new feature to the application itself (the ability to run on hd is an os paradigm, once is in memory the OS can't care less if it came from a floppy block or a HD block).

So to me, if it was free, and request donation as many do, I would be all for it, but since it is a product that force you to pay a hefty amount of money, to use games that in most cases are covered by copyright, makes me feel uncomfortable.
Being Amiga stuff, most of the SW houses are either dead, or don't care anymore, this may mitigate the issue, from a legal standpoint, but I feel morally obliged to not buy this piece of software.

I mean, take the work done by classicWB, and they really deserve kudos and money, for giving a great service, for taking the time in packing applications and utilities, in something easy to install and use. Altho they didn't write the applications itself, they supply a service that is quite useful and worthy of appreciation.

This is obviously my idea; I have my beliefs and I follow them, independently if we are talking of a dead platform or not. I prefer to have my 200 floppy, with the games that I like, install the games that has an installer, and continue to use the Amiga without WHDLoad.
Pretty sure that most of you will not grasp my motivations, so feel free to continue to support whatever you consider legit and useful to your purposes...they will not close and stop to make WHDLoad, just because I don't want to buy or use it

[superfrog76]

Spirantho, I agree that a lot of work went into WHDLoad, but at the same time, I would like to point out as example, the impact between WHDLoad, and Amiga forever. Which is totally in favor of the latter IMO.

WHDLoad gave the real amiga users, the chance to run games that would not run on the hd, and in some cases, make them run on configurations which would never be able to run certain games. AF on the other side, put a ton of work to make the emulated Amiga available to the masses....they both use the games written by others, but to me, AF value is much higher than WHDLoad; looking at what it does and what kind of impact has.

They cost almost the same..., but one sell you the right to use the original roms and run games/WB; while the other allow you to run games that would run  on floppy, in the worst case....or run games that honestly, are a minimal part of the whole catalog of Amiga games. Among the 2, I see value in AF, but not in WHDLoad, to justify that price.

On the moral issue, I think it is pretty much a personal opinion...most of the games running on the Amiga (emulated or real) are cracked anyway...if someone has no problems to download a ton of cracked games, has even less problems to pay someone to play them from the HD; if you catch my point. I don't have cracked images; the only ADF that I have are of the games that I had on floppy, and that I still have (except some cases, where the game itself does not exist anymore, altho the receipts that I paid are still somewhere in my archive for sure).

Far from blaming anyone! This is how I am, I do not criticize, judge or do the sermon, just because I act in this way. I am simply marking the fact that once that you go on a certain route (cracked games), then the whole subsequent reasoning may be warped by the first choices made.

In a certain way, also the crackers that cracked the games put a lot of work in what they did...altho some do work for the love of doing it, others for gaining money.

Maybe I am just too old fashioned

[superfrog76]

WinUAE was written from the ground up to support UAE on windows; it is a frontend somehow, but has also more features than a simple skin on screen.
AF is another frontend, which goes on top of Winuae; it gives you rating system for the games, screenshots, manuals, box arts and much more (using their custom file system called rp9).

WinUAE is a lot of work; if you ever wrote an application for windows Same goes for AF. I am not sure about how much work goes into making an installer for Amiga; I leave the explanation to someone that knows this, to avoid and say something incorrect

I get your point; it is kinda like a person that write a game from the ground up, and a person that writes a mod...you won't really compare the work needed to make a full game, compared to a mod for a pre-existing game.

I know that it is not as simple, but I see similar patterns here. I never objected the usefulness of the WHDLoad project; just the moral premises and the fact that is priced as much as an application+roms+license to use an OS (WB is included in AF).

Then consider how many games you play I count about 200 games, that I actually am interested in, and probably 40 that I play now and then...I understand that it is cool to have 4 Gb of games on WHDLoad, but it is not as important to me, due the fact that I don't use them, don't need them and I never purchased ALL the existing Amiga games

I do have AF already; I buy it every other year, since the beginning, but now that I have got again a real Amiga, I am more into buying software that can be useful to me For WHDLoad I don't think that I will buy it; I don't even have it on my partition, since I use the floppy

Maybe one day, they either stop to sell it, or change their method of distribution, from license based to donation based. In that case I may see an advantage in have it.

[superfrog76]

Amiga Forever free loads on the hard work of others and sells you the right to use ROMs that as an Amiga owner you already have the right to use. It also puts money in the pocket of that shyster Bill McEwen who destroyed any chance the Amiga had of making a comeback.

WHDLoad on the other hand is all the work of its authors.

Well, they don't free load; they bought the license to have their name on that stuff, and paid royalties; which I don't think that WHDLoad did for any of the thousands of games available

I have the Amiga again now; but before I didn't...so I found the AF offer, legit and fitting my case. I was without the Amiga until I could get one again, so now I don't really need AF anymore (except when I am traveling and do not have the miggy with me).

Amiga was killed by so  many people; mainly from whoever took the games and distributed them...no income for programmers means that nobody sell stuff....which brings to a death of the hardware, because nobody likes to sell hardware without software available

I understand your negative feelings, but keep in mind that AF is Cloanto (the guys that made C1 Text and many other apps in the past); which has nothing to do with Amiga inc and their poor choices

WHDLoad is all work of their authors, but without games doesn't do anything...AF is also work of their authors; and without roms and WB would still run (you would basically have a big DB of Amiga games, with pictures, music, box arts and manuals). I am comparing them just for the similar case in which they exist: they both piggyback on some other products, and somehow needs them to have a meaning...to exist.

[superfrog76]

Maybe one day you'll change your software to be donation based too?

No? Why not?

And yes I've written mission critical software for windows (And UNIX, Linux, AS/400) so I know what goes into writing software.

The effort and skill that went into slapping AF together is nothing compared to WHDLoad.

I don't play games very often btw

I may change my software distribution paradigm; depends from the choices made at certain point in time....I participated in drivers for linux distributions too; and I never asked for a penny...I wrote utilities and never tried to make money on them, because it was quite dumb to me to ask for 1 buck for a utility used by sys admins for their operations.

If I write an application for Amiga, I would not sell it. Even less if it would need some other software for which I do not own rights to use, nor I was authorized to modify.

IF I can get the code of AF and WHDLoad, I may be able to tell how much effort goes in it, but without see the code; I can simply theorize and assume; which does nothing good in the end.

The effort was never under discussion btw

[superfrog76]

WinUAE is GPL software and the  
Kickstart and Workbench come with every Amiga ever sold.

All AF does is take those things are free to all of us and slap on a crappy frontend and a price tag.  They are leeches.

I own a copy of it so I know what it consists of.

Yes, GPL, which is different from a copyrighted game, which has to be disassembled, reverse engineered, to remove protections and make it work and install with WHDLoad. That's one of my problems in dealing with such software.

AF takes roms and AmigaOS 3.0, for which has paid licenses and rights to distribute them, to people that do not have an Amiga...by law you are required to either own the rom and the software, to use it on an emulator, or you need to buy a license, like the one that AF has. I fail to see the "leeching" here.

The front end takes time to be written; as easy as it could be, the fact that me or you would be able to make a similar frontend with the same features with visual studio, doesn't mean necessarily that is a small feature, don't you think?

I am not defending them, just pointing out that they did legally everything right, and even made the effort to make a frontend for Amiga enthusiasts. After all these people used to write software for Amiga, so they care about it, don't you think?

Now, since I have a real Amiga again, the point in using it is limited, but think about many people that wants to have LEGALLY a copy of the roms and AOS; they can actually do it thanks to AF.

Or is better to get all fro free on bit torrent? In which case I fail to see why then WHDLoad should be different.

Anyway; I simply opened up my inner thoughts here; I don't want to discourage anyone to buy WHDLoad, since it seems loved by so many people. I just want to be sure that I don't break the law in any way, or somehow break my ethical code.

[superfrog76]

Really?


You think the crappy VB-esque front end they put together is even close to the work put into WinUAE which is free of charge and without which AF would have no product, yet you moan about WHDLoad not working without the games people have already paid for.

As I said, they are leeches that freeload on the work of others.

Yes, why it is so strange? Do you deal with people that live only for money? Nobody does something for free or for passion? I pity them, they must have a really sad and miserable life. The fact that you have a gift or skills, does not mean necessarily that you must monetize it 24/7. I have a full time job that pay a lot and give me the chance to do what I love; so I am lucky probably.

I don't know if it is made in VB or not; the UI is exactly the same even if you use Visual C++. I agree that without UAE there would be no AF, but is the same for WHDLoad: without games there would be no WHDLoad. You can still use the AF frontend without launch the games thou, as database and catalog system thou.

I am simply comparing the legality and usefulness of the 2, since they both depend from something else. To me one's price is fine, while the other seems excessive, that's all.

SO WHDLoad is not freeloading on games? I see you having a strong opinion on AF, but I don't see you making a reasonable comment on WHDLoad thou, which makes me think that you take side, and not just analyzing the things like I am trying to do.

I don't want to change your ideas, I express my opinion, to see if someone has arguments that could make me change my mind about this product legality

[superfrog76]

WHDLoad authors have done everything "legally right" too, except they are only selling their own hard work not someone else's GPL licenced hard work.

So they contacted every single company for every single game, told them that they will reverse engineer the games to remove cracks (if any), protections, change its mount point in the os, so it can be read from the hd, pack all in a file and distribute it for money?

Even if they don't touch the compiled application, to use something written by others, you need authorization, the usual EULA terms do not allow to make derived works out of an application; I don't have handy any EULA now to copy exactly what it says, but in software development, there are standards that a re the bare minimum.

Since you work in the field, as you mentioned earlier, you know this very well.

If they did all of this, and there are proof that they contacted whoever retains the rights and copyright for each game, I will be more than happy to consider the registration fee.

[superfrog76]

You mean like giving up a career with a huge salary to look after disabled people 24/7 for no monetary gain whatsoever?

When I retire, maybe; for now I can do both things. I pay taxes, I volunteer, I do work for free for various associations....yes Nicholas; the world out there is made of people that actually help, or simply stay quiet if they don't have anything to give, other than paid content

What has that got to do with Cloanto MAKING MONEY by selling other people's hard work compared to WHDLoad authors selling their own work?

Cloanto is a company, WHDLoad is a simple group of people, from what I can tell; no brand registration or such. In the same way Cloanto makes AF with their hard work, WHDLoad has their hard work doing their installer.

Again, either you have no idea, code wise, of what both team do and love to boast what WHDLoad do (for some unknown reasons, honestly), or you know exactly what they do, and feel offended that I compare AF "basic" frontend, with a bunch of lines of assembly, made by WHDLoad...

Since you don't expand your thoughts at all, continuing to state things without any extra info; I am not sure that I can understand what kind of point are you making.

So you keep saying.

I do, since I don't live in a basement with my parents, hating on something...it is to make the point that I am not a starving little boy, that wants so bad to play to a bunch of cracked games from a 30 years old system; that loves to play and boast who knows what kind of knowledge

I have to make it clear, and I am glad that it came trough. On internet is hard to understand when are you talking with a total doofus that loves to talk, and when you are talking with someone that actually is trying to say something true.

So selling someone elses work with a crappy frontend is "fine" but selling your own hard work is "not fine"?

No, you misunderstood. Value wise, roms+wb+frontend coming form AF, is priced decently; while WHDLoad offer of installers and game fixes, seems overpriced to me.

If a person takes 3 months to write an application, while another takes 2 days, means that the first person wasted 3 months, I would not call it hard work. Not talking specifically of WHDLoad, just pointing out that the hard work is there, either if you are slow and take time to do something simple, or if you are quick and do it fast. Criticize something just because looks simple to you, is probably the wrong approach when analyzing software.

I am stating nothing but facts, WHDLoad is the sole work of it's authors and they are free to sell it for whatever price they want.

You are totally right; the author is the only one that made the installers, he can sell it at whatever price he wants; and consumers can decide if they want to pay that price or not. So far freedom rights are safe!

Your "analysis" is not based in logic at all.

Really? Either you don't understand what I am saying, or I am not good at writing in proper English (I would go for the second, since it is not my primary language). I simply see the same answers from you.

Did I touch a hot spot by any chance? Am I interdicted from naming or saying anything about WHDLoad, without getting on a black list and receive the donkey hat? All that I see here is "it is hard work, they didn't do anything wrong...ho DARE you even touch my beloved application?".

Am I wrong?

How about the law?  That enough of a reason for you?

Of which law are you talking about? You are aware that laws are different in each country, and that there is an international set of laws that covers the basics? I can stop by at my legal office later and ask them to give me pointers about international laws about software...that's what they do 24/7   Altho I doubt that they would waste time with me, having more important things to do probably (that's why they are paid 5 times more than me )

[superfrog76]

They don't need to, in civilised countries the law quite clearly states they are allowed to provide such a service.



They don't create nor distribute "derived works out of an application".



I know what the law states in civilised countries, you seemingly don't.



See above.

On the contrary....legally aware country (USA, just to mention the biggest), have very specific laws about software distribution, then each application needs to have an End User License Agreement; which is the binding contract between the user and the software .

When you open a box containing software, or click "I agree" when you install it, you are accepting the EULA and all the related conditions. There are no more contracts to sign, like in the stone age.

The fact that laws are not mentioned, does not mean that someone can ignore them

If anyone reverse engineer anything, to make a piece of software, it is legally considered derived work. Not sure where do you get your info; later on I will post some legal links.

Feel free to do the same; I see you posting always the contrary of what I say, but I don't see any mention of the source. I believe you, because I have no reason to believe that you don't say the truth, but if I read something that say the opposite of what you say, I would love to document myself and find out which source is incorrect.

[superfrog76]

Can anyone explain to me simply and clearly how to install WHDload onto my CF card, or even onto a new blank CF card?

Alternatively, can anyone point out where I can still get a pre prepared CF card which already has WHDload, as well as lots of games and demos already installed onto it?

On the install part, there is a wonderful video made by Mike, which teach you how to install the OS on a CFCard, and has also the instructions to install WHDLoad; it is on youtube (but there are plenty).

Once you have the installer, you simply execute it and it does all the work; to install each game, you need to follow the instructions from each installer. Go to their site, download the installer that you need and go from there.

On the sal of cards with games; they usually sell CF cards with games and WHDLoad installed on Ebay, which are legit; but more and more non legit cards are appearing. You can ask the seller which games are included (some are publicly available now, like the ones from factor5), and check if he has anything that is still protected by copyright.
Also they sell it usually with the license from a guy that shared without realizing, his key; so if you see a key file on the card; simply delete it and buy a proper license for WHDLoad.

[superfrog76]

WHDLoad is a godsend, I can't imagine how or why people would want to use things like floppy disks or HxC readers/.adf files, when you can have a nice directory full of games that load easily just by clicking on their icon, and have a clean exit key to put you right back to Workbench when you're finished playing.  As much as I loved the '80s I don't have time to wait around for games to load anymore, too old for that, LOL.  

We can safely assume that nobody ever questioned the utility in having such program

A phone is useful, can't see why people would not use it...and some people don't use the phone I don't argue with the intrinsic value of having a phone; I just don't use it enough to make it worth the 40 dollars a month for the bill.

The world is great because has many shades and differences

Cmon...don't you love the grinding sound of the floppy drive? Like the sounds made by the old modem?

[superfrog76]

True, I should have mentioned win zip instead than the phone

[superfrog76]

Indeed; the only license that I had for a V8.0, was on Win98 SE; the most useful feature was the pwd protection and the volume split in multiple archive

I remember the good old time when I had no internet at home, so I would go to the internet cafe and save stuff on a ton of floppy....winzip was the only way to do that

[superfrog76]

Unfortunately, it's not clear from the eBay listings nowadays which of these cards have any games or demos installed.

AmigaBruno: This is the video that I was talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd42RsKHm5Y

Most of the lists has info about the fact that they have games; just need patience to read them.

Searched right now and found 4 of them. BTW if you have already the IDE CF reader, just avoid to waste time with ebay and get a Sandisk CF from any shop around you; less hassle.