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Author Topic: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26  (Read 6416 times)

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Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« on: September 14, 2004, 10:55:43 PM »
Yay. More TV cards. Where's 3Com network card support? Adaptec and Symbios/LSI Logic SCSI card support? Matrox and ATI video card support? Oh wait. They'd probably have to use open source drivers as a resource which would force them to open source portions of their drivers as well. God forbid.
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2004, 07:13:27 AM »
A little Amiga-esque irony: The Mediator 3dfx drivers are almost certainly based on stolen intellectual property. 3dfx was long gone before the Mediator was released, and I don't recall Nvidia starting a 3dfx licensing program. (OK, this is pure speculation, but it seems likely. Did Elbox ever announce an agreement with Nvidia? My guess is that Elbox used the leaked 3dfx source code as a starting point.)

Speaking of 3dfx being long gone, what genius decided to launch Mediator with support for a dead product line? I'd understand if Mediator was an open solution. But it isn't. It would have made more sense (to me anyway) to provide support for video cards that are still being manufactured. Then again, it's an Amiga product. . . . And I'm beating a dead horse. Mediator is what it is--a closed, pay-per-use solution for a captive market.
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 03:18:15 AM »
Actually, I'm just an Amiga user. I've been called many things, but only 99% of them were true. ;-)

The Mediator PCI 1200 shipped in September 2000, just three months before Nvidia's acquisition of 3dfx was announced. 3dfx had been in decline for quite some time, and Nvidia would have been working with 3dfx on acquisition details well before an official announcement was made.

3dfx stopped licensing its technology after the release of the Voodoo 2. They were especially closelipped about Glide, their 3D API, and quite reticent with regard to their software and hardware interface in general.

Why would 3dfx break with tradition and license their technology to Elbox? I just don't see it happening.

And really, this isn't trolling. It's just an open discussion. It's not like I'm proclaiming the v1r7u3s of one PCI solution over another. I'm just criticizing Elbox's abuse of the market and lack of support for current video cards.

In other news, the SharkPPC will begin production in January 2001: http://www.elbox.com/news_00_10_12.html :-P

EDIT: It just occurred to me that under US law, it would be entirely legal to produce an OpenPCI library for Mediator to support new PCI video cards, as the currently supported cards are no longer "reasonably available in the commercial marketplace." The US Copyright Office did at least one thing right with repsect to reverse engineering, circumvention, and the DMCA. http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

Trev
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2004, 08:15:36 AM »
Can't...stop...responding. ;-)

Obviously, Elbox spent time before the Mediator release working on drivers. If they did all the work themselves, kudos. I'd still like to see support for more video cards on the Mediator. Calling the Voodoo 3 "one of the best PCI graphic card at that time" is subjective, and we welcome your opinion; however, I disagree. Matrox has been the undisputed leader in 2D image quality since the release of the first Millennium card. ATI and Nvidia implementers have only recently begun closing the gap. (Please note that I'm only talking about the consumer and low-end corporate markets.)

It's possible that Hyperion used leaked source code. I did note that this was purely speculation on my part. I do have more respect for Hyperion than I do for Elbox. No one wants to admit it, but the Amiga market is focused on hobbyists, and hobbyists want open solutions. That's not what Elbox offers, and that's had an impact on my opinion (I repeat, *my* opinion) of Elbox in general.

With respect to the SharkPPC, I was just making a joke. Announcing the imminent release of a product three to four years in advance is pretty typical in the Amiga community.

Trev
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2004, 04:46:05 AM »
Ugh. Did anyone actually read my comments? Yes, the Mediator works. Yes, it meets the needs of some users in the Amiga community. I just find it funny that Elbox hasn't put forth the effort (publicly) to write drivers for a wider range of display and network adapters. Instead, they focus their efforts on supporting yet another series of TV tuners. It's sad.

No, I don't own a Mediator. I won't buy a hardware product that doesn't at least sponsor an open (i.e. no NDA required) developer program.

Again, this is just my opinion. Everyone else is welcome to theirs. You think?

Incidentally, I have similar feelings towards OpenPCI, which, in its own way, is just as closed as Elbox. Sometimes it's embarassing to be an Amiga user. You'd think a market as small as ours could find common ground, especially for something as trivial as a PCI bus library. If Elbox isn't willing to develop the drivers, then they should let projects such as OpenPCI move forward on their platform instead of requiring developers to sign an NDA for a closed library.

Trev
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2004, 07:31:04 PM »
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OpenPCI doesn't seem to offer any drivers for devices that Elbox don't already support and I don't see any drivers for graphics cards in
developement.


The OpenPCI and Picasso96 SDKs are hard to get through official channels, so this isn't surprising.

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To be honest there is not much point in supporting newer graphics cards for the Mediator As the Voodoo's performance is strangled by the Amiga's data bus. Of course if Amiga dealers can't source Voodoo cards any longer then new graphics drivers will be necessary but there will be no performance advantage.


Ah! You've touched on my point. Banshee, Voodoo 3, and VSA-100 cards are getting harder to find. Performance isn't really the issue, at least with respect to 2D. I'd like to see support for the Matrox Millennium II (because I have lots of them) and the GeForce 4 MX (because PCI cards based on this chipset are still readily available), but grassroots development for the Mediator is a lost cause, and I can't use a Prometheus (no Zorro III).

Trev
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2004, 05:26:08 PM »
You're right tjaoz. OpenPCI and Picasso96 are closed, and according to the authors, it's because of Elbox. Personally, I think it's because of unrealistic expectations. You can't work full-time on an Amiga product and expect to make a decent living. It's sad, and it's unfortunate (especially for good folks like Redrumloa and Jens Schoenfeld), but it's the truth.

And tjaoz, you could play nice and voice your opinions without name calling. I respect your right to your opinion. Please respect mine.

With respect to Nvidia, yes they are protective of their intellectual property, and in today's PC graphics market, it's justified. However, information about Nvidia chipsets is readily available in the open source community.

Would anyone be interested in a Picasso96 driver for SVGA compatible PCI display adapters? I'd like to write one for both OpenPCI and pci.library and make it open source. The Amiga community needs a serious kick in the ass with respsect to market expectations. :-)

Trev

EDITED: Removed two comments about Picasso96 and OpenPCI that really weren't fair to their authors. D'oh!
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2004, 01:21:55 AM »
I don't think I mentioned 3D drivers anywhere in my initial comments. You brought it up. Elbox developed Picasso96 drivers without licensing Picasso96, so what would lead me to believe they licensed technology from 3dfx? I'm only interested in Picasso96 compatible 2D drivers.

The largest number of drivers? Elbox wrote two, the OpenPCI crew (or someone else--I don't know who) wrote one. Yes, things are really heating up in the race to provide display drivers for Amiga PCI busboards.

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Isn't it so that drivers for NVidia cards for Linux are prepared _solely_ by NVidia, and their key elements (those, which are responsible for access to chipset registers) are available _only_ as precompiled libraries, without source codes?


Objection. Leading the witness. But I'll answer anyway. No, it's not true: http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/nv/

My words? You're welcome to browse the US Code (courtesy of Cornell) and US Copyright Office web sites.

Dude. Why are you being such an asshole? Why not try to be helpful instead? Aren't we both Amiga users? [Putting on my tjaoz hat.] You're obviously just a troll who loves Elbox and doesn't give a {bleep} about anyone other than himself. (Please forgive me if American sarcasm doesn't translate well in your society.) ;-)
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2004, 07:19:20 PM »
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Unfortunately, it is you who mentioned there 3dfx Glide and their 3D API.


You're right, I mentioned 3dfx and their disposition towards Glide; however, I didn't say anything about Warp3D display drivers. You've misinterpreted my statements. English doesn't appear to be your native language, so I apologize for the misunderstanding. Unfortunately, speaking a language other than English is neither mandatory nor even encouraged in the United States, so English is the only language I know (unless you count dirty words and chat up lines in French). Sorry. . . .

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Do you have problems with counting? Elbox wrote two drivers? Check here to see all the available drivers for Mediator.


Let's see. Voodoo.card (one) and Virge.card (two). It looks like the total is still two display drivers. Perhaps your understanding of the number two is different from mine.

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I didn't ask you to give a link to linux sources, but to give but a single link where NVidia chipset documentation is available. Can you give such a link?


You didn't specify the type of documentation. It's not my fault you can't read C source code.

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As you wrote, you are not a Mediator user. What is a reason of your anti-Elbox trolling here?


I'm criticizing Elbox's lack of support for modern display adapters and their closed developer program. As an Amiga user and a prospective PCI busboard buyer, I'm certainly entitled to my opinions.

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If you have lots of Matrox Millenium II cards and you need drivers for them, get up your ass and write these drivers instead of barking at Elbox. Opsss..., sorry..., it not so easy as trolling here...


I'm working on the framework for an open source VGA/SVGA 2D driver right now. Whether or not it gets released depends on the licensing restrictions put in place by Elbox, OpenPCI, and Picasso96. It's a fun project, but I'll need the community's help with testing . . . and I don't yet know if the parties involved will let that happen. I'm feeling positive about OpenPCI and Picasso96. Stay tuned.

Trev
 

Offline Trev

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Re: Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2004, 02:29:27 AM »
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Oh yes? So what Mediator 3dfx drivers if not Warp 3D drivers you had on your mind writing: "The Mediator 3dfx drivers are almost certainly based on stolen intellectual property. [...], and I don't recall Nvidia starting a 3dfx licensing program." and "They were especially closelipped about Glide, their 3D API,[...]?"


I didn't have Warp3D in mind at all. My description of 3dfx's position on their APIs was anecdotal. Let's just consider this one lost in translation and let it go.

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Sure, English is not my native language. But I think that these "misunderstandings" result mostly from the fact that you are not well versed in the issue about which you talk so easily.


You have a lot to learn about international communication. Granted, I only speak English, but I'm always aware that what I say and/or write may not be properly interpreted by a non-English speaking individual.

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If they put support for all graphic cards for Mediator in one driver and called it Mediatorgraphic.card, would that mean support for one graphic card only? We talk here about the number of supported chipsets (like: VSA-100, Avenger, Banshee, S3 86C375, S3 86C325), not number of driver file names.


*sigh*

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"Documentation" doesn't mean Linux sources, right? Documentation as a rule is a pretty thick book (electronic or paper) with descriptions of all registers, chipset operation, etc. Who thinks seriously about writing drivers, shouldn't he know what documentation is?


Actually, souce code does qualify as documentation. In this case, the documentation is written in C. How is that any different from documentation written in English, German, etc.? They're all languages used to communicate ideas. Shall I satisfy your need for troll fodder? Why not. No, I don't know of any publicly available documentation written in a language other than C that details the inner workings of Nvidia's various chipsets.

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Elbox produces a PCI busboard, not graphic cards. They wrote such drivers which they wanted. You can equally well criticise the Zorro busboard producer for lack of support for better graphic chipsets than S3 Virge (installed in CyberVision 64 3D).


I agree, but programming information for Zorro busboards is publicly available.

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So you have now those potential guilty of your failure in writing these drivers? Are your skills not taken into account here, Trev?


Huh? Maybe you should repeat that in your native language. Your first question is nonsensical.

If the Picasso96 folks say, "No, you can't write open source card and chip drivers for Picasso96," what am I supposed to do? In the US, fair use would allow me to reverse engineer their interfaces, but I'd much rather make some new friends and help support a useful piece of software.

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Positive feelings about OpenPCI and Picasso96? Why? Because, unlike Elbox, they have done nothing new so far for users of Amiga PCI busboards?


You're drifting. We're talking about display adpater drivers, remember? And once again, you've misinterpreted my comments. I'm feeling positive about using OpenPCI because their dev kit is now publicly available, and I'm feeling positive about Picasso96 because the authors seem like nice guys interested in helping out the community.

Trev