Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please  (Read 7411 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« on: March 07, 2013, 06:03:01 PM »
Hi,
 
I've recently purchased an Amiga 500 and a 1200, and before I started using them i've started restoring them... Long story short - I am working on the A500 at the moment.
 
Upon testing Turrican (original disk) with the A500 I noticed that it crashes on loading - the title shows fine, with the lightning etc, then there's the 'Wecome to Turrican' sample, fine again, then it starts to load and before the main title screen displays it hangs, the sound stops and repeats the last few bytes etc for a few seconds, the power light flashing 3 or 4 times at the same time, then it reboots to the guru screen.
 
If I connect a 512Kb fastram board it actually boots up fine and is playable. The thing is i've noticed problems on other games as well, they load so far and eventually reboot, nearly always at the same point. Lotus III for example will load to the start of the race, you drive forward for like 2 seconds and then it crashes.
 
The state of the PCB is very good - although I've just replaced the following sockets due to a drink having been spilt on them many years go by the looks of things. CIA (nearest Denise), Denise socket, Fat Agnus socket, and Paula socket. All of these have been done after the initial fault, and the state the Agnus socket was in I suspected that a new socket would solve the problem, but its exactly the same as it was. These have all been replaced very very carefully using a desoldering station and it looks good as new and every contact looks fine (no lifted pads, very clean replacements i've done).
 
I've also got 2 complete sets of the chips - ie. 2 x Fat Agnus, 4 x CIA, 2 x Gary, 2 x Denise, 2 x Paula, 2 x CPU. So i've gone as far as swapping each chip and re-testing just to ensure there's not some really obscure problem with one of the main IC's. It's just the same...
 
It's a rev 5 board, but the keyboard looks to be from an older model - its the one with a red power LED which goes off when the audio filtering is enabled. I've rules this out by disconnecting it and booting witout it - same problem. Also swapped the floppy drive just to rule that out and same issue.
 
I've just removed and socketed 1 of the RAM chips but its not that one (15 to go...), but does this sound like it could be a RAM problem? What I am puzzled by is that when fastram is there turrican loads, but I thought chipram and fastram were used for very different things within the system - ie. CPU has only access to fast ram, which could mean that fast ram takes priority for code over chipram, and possibly having fastram connected means I am skipping the CPU loading code into dodgy ram perhaps, is that what I am seeing here?
 
I thought the A500 was supposed to test RAM on boot and give a green screen if there's a problem?
 
Any advice appreciated because the way this is going I am going to end up chucking the damn thing out of the window lol.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 06:09:02 PM by GadgetUK »
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 06:24:41 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;728515
Sounds like you've done some very good work! Based on your first couple sentences I'd also suspect a RAM problem, but just to rule out some quirk with bad disks or whatever on your games, if you boot to a Workbench disk is the machine stable? I.e., if Workbench runs for hours and only the games crash, it might be something else.
 
Unfortunately I don't know of a good memory testing program, but am sure someone else will come along soon who does, LOL. ;)

Thanks, it's definitely not the floppies, i've rules that out, and the fact that Turrican fails every time at the same point without the 512Kb of fastram connected leads me to believe that it's a chipram / addressing issue.  I am wondering if the logic chips that sit on the 'data path' part of the board could be the issue - do those ever fail?

I will continue swapping (and socketting) the RAM chips for now, but they are a pain to remove - Agnus socket was far easier lol, and that was difficult enough...
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 09:26:08 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;728528
Just to be thorough, I'm going to ask an obvious question:

You said you had both an A1200 and an A500. You're not trying to run the AGA version of Turrican on the Amiga 500, right?  That will certainly crash (and often when it reaches the same point on disk).

I would see if your Amiga can load a bog standard Workbench disk, then run a mem checking utility from Aminet.

Haha, thanks - good point but I am not that stupid lol.  I had an Amiga 20 years ago, many of the disks i've used on the a500 before, and Turrican 1 was for the original Amiga.  Going to put memtest on a floppy using the 1200 later, and will test that in workbench.  I hope it reveals a problem.

Edit:  Also, read my first post - it does not crash if I have 512Kb of fastram, so theres no way its the AGA version, or a dodgy floppy.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 09:30:41 PM by GadgetUK »
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2013, 10:50:29 PM »
Quote from: AmmoJammo;728533
Has the board already been modified so the trap door ram is chip ram?
 
I imagine that could create issues if the trap door ram was then not installed, but I could be wrong :p

No, it's never been touched - well, except for coffee many years ago by the looks but that's got little to do with the fault I think.
 
I do think its RAM, or one of the logic IC's that sit on the 'data path' part of the board.  I've just spent an hour messing around trying to copy MemCheck from the PC, to the amiga 1200 HDD and then to a floppy...  I finally managed it, booted the 500 up with WB1.3, and then ran MemCheck - it needs KS2.04 or greater, ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 01:21:52 PM »
OK, a bit of progress but not there yet...  Temporarily piggy backing the RAM I found a RAM chip that was causing Turrican to hang on loading when not having fastram connected.  After socketing that chip and putting a new 41256 in Turrican loads fine =)

The bad news is that Turrican has a few wierd sprites - randomly, hard to recreate.  And Lotus 3 still crashes around 2 or 3 seconds after race start.  I suspect another RAM chip probably but the tester ive tried crashes as soon as you run it =\
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 09:53:32 PM »
More progress!!  Using other games (Lemmings and Rolling Thunder) and using the piggyback method I found 2 more faulty RAM chips.  Those games now work perfectly, as does Turrican.  Days of Thunder has a corrupted game screen =\. Yet every other game i've tried has worked fine, excluding Lotus 3, which still crashes after a few secs of race start - it has a wierd double road thing going on as well where you see a 'ghost road' to the right of the main road, its very odd.  I cannot find any more faulty chipram on the board so the Lotus problem might be the fastram board at fault (cleaned bat acid off it already so wouldnt suprise me).  Just dont get the problem with Days of Thunder now =\
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2013, 11:48:50 PM »
Quote from: Matt_H;728611
I'm assuming you're using PAL machines and PAL versions of the games? I've experienced similar problems when running PAL games on an NTSC Amiga. Once the machine is booted into PAL mode, everything works fine. So just make sure you're truly dealing with a hardware problem and not a software one :)

 
Thanks, yes, these are PAL version.  Mostly originals which came with the A500 but I already had a collection from around 20 years ago.  
 
It's really frustrating because I am almost there but not quite...  I keep inching towards it being perfect but i've got these issues, and I am sure there's either another RAM problem or possibly something else wrong with the system.  The thing is you start to question your previous work - like I am now starting to wonder if i've killed a track somewhere under the Agnus, or under Paula etc, even under the 3 RAM chips i've replaced so far.
 
So far everything else i've tried runs fine except for Lotus III - which used to play fine on my A500+, and interestingly enough i've tried the same game (using PD .adf images instead) in UAE and I see the same sort of crash where the picture goes all coloured noise, a bit like a TV noise pattern but with colour before it shoots off and you get a crash.   Additionally there's Days of Thunder which loads OK, sounds OK, even plays OK but the dashboard of the car is part of the title screen image in the wrong colours - it's very wierd, almost like it could be a RAM problem but I cannot be sure.  I tried the piggyback method again against that fault to see if it would rectify but it didn't, but that could mean that some of the RAM has shorted rather than gone open circuit.  
 
Finally there's the fact I cannot run sysdiag as it crashes the machine also.  Does anyone know of a ram tester that works with KS1.3?  I've tried a few now and they seem to only work on 2.04+
 
I think ultimately I am going to end up having to remove all of the RAM now =/   I don't mind removing sockets etc they are far easier.  The problem with RAM is it absorbs the iron heat and you nearly always risk pad damage unless you do it really carefully.  Where I can take a 48 pin socket off in 10 minutes, its taking like 45 minutes per RAM socket =/
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 10:10:26 AM »
Quote from: Azryl;728616
Just a quick question. Are these games 1meg games or 512k games? Some will not run without all the ram available that they require.
 
And some games might require 1meg chip ram to run, if cracked and not originals.
 
Az

Days of Thunder is an original, and I know that needs 512Kb of chipram only because i've tested in emulators.  Lotus III will work with 512Kb of chip and fast(slow) ram because i've played it on other a500's before.
 
I suspect if i've still got a problem with chipram, and possibly a problem with fastram.  I've got another 512Kb fastram + clock in the loft, I will get it down later, but it's anyones guess as to what the battery has done to that board =/
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 10:15:17 PM »
I am on the home run now!  I found another game that had major graphical corruptions.  I ended up socketting all of the remaining RAM chips, only when I got to the very last chip did the corruption vanish after I tried a good chip in the socket.  The Days of Thunder corruption is still there but Lotus 3 is massively improved - can play for 2 or 3 mins now before it crashes and there are no graphical issues.  I suspect 1 of the chips I thought was OK isnt.  Just need to swap 1 at a time tomorrow until Days of Thunder looks OK.

I've also had to order 2 ceramic caps (0.33uF) to replace 2 that broke.
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 12:41:07 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;728675
That is some pretty serious troubleshooting, kudos!  :)


Lol, thanks, I believe i've done it!  All games work and look perfect, just played lotus 3 for 3 levels and no problems at all.  Since I socketed all RAM and had replaced 8 definite faulty chips and still had the odd crash I just swapped the 8 remaining chips for new ones and thats cracked it.

Days of Thunder still doesnt display the car dash but ive a strong suspicion its the disk at fault as everything else runs just fine.
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »
Just thought I would expand with a 'lessons learnt' here, in the hope that my experience with this A500 might help someone else trying to repair one in the future.
 
When I first got the A500 it was described as working and in good condition. Upon booting the machine with a few games it seemed OK, but some games crashed at the same point each time. Now originally it had KS1.2 ROM so I assumed that all it needed was a KS1.3 and a good clean etc.
 
Stripped it down, fairly clean inside but the metal shielding had some corrosion - not a good sign as the flakes get onto the motherboard. Proceeded to remove the shielding and take a look at the motherboard. I could see several 'dark' coloured pins on Denise, the CIA nearest Paula, Paula, Agnus, and spill marks on the PCB. It smelt and looked like coffee from many years ago.
 
After removing those sockets chips and cleaning up the corroded pins with a wire brush I noticed the sockets were much worse - that green colour you get with corrosion in the same pins in the socket where the pins were 'dark' on the associated chips. EDIT: Cleaned the PCB using Isopropanol achohol, and after soldering a socket / chip, cleaned with the same stuff but used a fine wire brush to remove flux (PCB looks untouched as a result).
 
Replaced the Paula and Denise sockets with new ones (48 pin DIP), then replaced the CIA socket (40 pin DIP). Finally re-tested, it was a bit better but some games still crashed at the same point and it seemed to be sensitive to movement. Used PLCC extractor to remove Agnus... Agnus came out with the removal tool WITH the PLCC socket plastic component. So what was left on the board were 84 pins sat there on their lonesome, with the plastic part of the socket in my hands.
 
The socket then just litterally crubbled appart - I am not kidding the plastic was mega brittle with coffee and ageing. On inspection I could see what had gone on in the past. Firstly, the Agnus had at some point been levered out of the socket using the wrong kind of tool and the corner had split and been SUPER GLUED (OMG). The owner then proceeded to use a MEGA STICKY DOUBLE SIDED PAD to glue the Agnus INTO the socket (hence why Agnus was sat in my hand with a plastic socket glued to her ass). With coffee, corrosion and a partly split corner held with glue the little lass stood no chance of lasting.
 
I replaced the Agnus socket - this was the most difficult to do as you cannot just cut the plastic part on the top of the PCB. I mentioned the plastic came off already, it did, but that was the square part that holds all the pins to the chip, underneath that is a very very thin piece of plastic that holds all the pins flat against the board, that doesnt come off as its pretty much molded with the pins. For DIP 40 and 48 sockets a nice safe way of removing them I found was to desolder all the pins, once the solder hole looks empty, wiggle the pin with a very small screw driver, and if the socket doesnt just fall off, proceed to CUT the black plastic of the socket into blocks of 2 / 3 pins - this way they come out much easier and if you get a stuck pin you can just heat that pin on its own whilst using the other hand to pull slightly at the block of pins you are trying to remove. Anyway, one 84 pin PLCC through pin hole socket later and Agnus had a new home, free from any problems - phew...
 
Testing again revealed a significant improvement, a few games worked now that didnt previously, but I just had problems with many games and they all had similar problems whereby they would crash at a specific point every time.
 
Using the piggyback method (just sit a new 41256 RAM chip on top of the existing one so it snuggly hugs the bottom chips pins), and testing Turrican one chip per reboot I found a chip that when it was piggybacked caused Turrican to NOT hang on the part it had before. To make this story a bit shorter, I repeated that process around 4 times until Turrican was almost flawless, and extended the testing to Lemmings, Days of Thunder, Rolling Thunder, and some shoot em up I can't remember the name of (coded by DMA), each exhibited either a hang at a certain point loading, or graphical corruptions. Now the graphical corruptions were by far the hardest to address because after piggybacking all chips the shootemup game and Turrican still had graphical wierdness with some sprites. At this point I had replaced like 3 or 4 RAM chips in sockets, but now I had to replace all of the remaining chips with sockets. After carrying out this work I started replacing the testing the newly socketed 'old RAM' one chip at a time against those games with garbage sprites. This approach worked well and at the end I had 8 X NEW RAM and 8 X OLD RAM. The system was 99.8% now, everything loaded, next to no crashes at all, but Lotus III only worked for a few minutes before a random reboot. I thought about this and came to the conclussion that my approach - ie. to try and save old RAM chips and only replace what was required had long since become a flawed approach, since I had ended up replacing 8 chips already (50%), and out of those 8, 4 allowed the piggyback approach, meaning that an address line or data line had gone open circuit, and the other 4 chips didn't allow that approach, meaning that they were bringing back random results (eg. a high instead of a low), and its not like these were all 8 of the top or bottom bank, they were randomly situated. So my reasoning at this point was, yes its much much better now but these really obscure crashes in Lotus that are very hard to re-create must be related to RAM timing, and possibly one of those remaining chips is glitching on an infrequent basis.
 
So I finally just replaced the last 8 old chips with 8 new ones. Unfortunately I didnt have any more - 15 (150ns) chips, only -12's. I seperated them into the 2 logical banks, 1 row of -12's and 1 row of -15's. It shouldnt make any difference at all, just one bank will be perkier than the other lol, but both within the design limits. For the first time I was able to play Lotus 3 until I SWITCHED IT OFF, rather than the system dictating I would have only 30 seconds to race. It worked flawless, no glitches of any kind, very stable. I also left it on the demo screens of Lotus 3 for a good 20 minutes with no crashes.
 
I declare this A500, 'back from the dead', to live another 20 to 25 years hopefully.
 
Final steps for me now are to solve a loose connection on the floppy power cable (probably needs a bit of solder), and to 'retrobrite' the case, a process which i've had good success with so far on the A1200 case I am doing at the mo. I've already serviced the floppy drive, and also added a KS1.3 ROM in very early on btw. I also plan to add a DSDT switch to toggle the expansion RAM between 1Mb chip or 50/50, but I will need the 1Mb Agnus before I do that. I may also add one of those 8Mb fastram boards to the CPU but I am not sure as I probably would never use it lol
 
EDIT: Forgot to mention, that corrosion on the metal shielding - all dealt with early on, using metal polish (Brasso). Wiped down afterwards with paper towels to remove residue, then wiped again with a very fine oil in order stop future corrosion (don't use something like WD40, unless you want it to smell like a car engine forever lol).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 09:42:47 AM by GadgetUK »
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 02:08:10 PM »
Quote from: paul1981;728721
That's a brilliant job done Gadget. I'd have slung that A500 in the bin! Nice to see a lobster rescued. :)
I've had corrosion on an A1200 shield that was so bad that there was a hole in the shield. I admit, when I was younger I spilt drinks in my 1200...not deliberately of course.


Thanks lol, really pleased its tip top now.  Its passed the burn-in test, lotus 3 been looping demos for 4 hours, it seems rock solid now =). Now the fun begins!
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 03:48:19 PM »
Just for completeness I tested Days of Thunder on the A1200 - yay, it showed exactly the same problem on the car dash - a corruption of what looks like part of the title screen in the wrong palette mixed with garbage.
 
This means that my Days of Thunder is obviously corrupt =)
 
Been playing the A500 all day, not a single glitch or anything, it's 100%.
 
Case closed I think.
 

Offline GadgetUKTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 89
    • Show all replies
Re: Amiga 500 Hardware Problem - Advice Please
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2013, 06:42:42 PM »
Quote from: sweetlilmre;730199
Did you ever find a memcheck program that would run on < KS2.04?
Specifically 1.3? I have some similar issues to you but with an expansion board. I'd like to see if the memory scans as ok as a first step.
 
Thanks
-(e)

I have to admit that I gave up and followed other methods of testing. I do want a memory tester for KS1.3 in order that I can just give it a once over for good measure but since I ended up replacing all of my RAM with new RAM I ultimately didn't need to do it.
 
For the most part I would find it unusual to have more than 1 RAM chip fail at a time but I ended up with 8 that were definitely bad, and 1 or more that had timing / glitching issues out of the remaining 8, that's 9 or 10 out of 16 - not worth trying to work out which 4 or 5 chips to keep - after all, how long would the remaining ones last considering so many of the others failed?
 
That said, i've kept all 8 of the old chips and recently found I have some 256Kb SIMMS that have 1 x 41256 DRAM chip on each board - presumably for parity, I was thinking about adding a socket onto one of the SIMMS in order that I can plug Amiga and ST DRAM chips into it (one at a time) in order that I can test on an ST to determine which of my chips were at fault and which are still OK. If its on the parity chip that might not work though because I don't think the ST uses parity so it won't test it =/ Will post an update when I've had a closer look.
 
The best RAM test you are going to get are your games. If your PSU is OK, and its just random crashes and graphical corruption you are getting then ultimately you are going to end up socketting all the RAM and replacing any faulty chips. You can get some new 41256 chips and piggy back as described earlier in this thread.
 
 
The problem with all memory testers is they rely on the system loading workbench, drivers etc etc all into good working RAM, before they start testing all of the RAM. So if you get a problem like I had it will crash trying to even load a tester - despite workbench booting fine.