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Author Topic: OS3.9 BB3+4 V1.2 Available  (Read 16548 times)

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Offline donpalmera

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Re: OS3.9 BB3+4 V1.2 Available
« on: February 09, 2016, 09:35:15 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;803733
In the end, *Google* has a say what goes into Android and what does not,


Google has a say on what goes into AOSP and the builds for Nexus devices. What actually gets shipped on devices is a different matter. The AOSP source is fairly modular so you can actually replace almost anything you want.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803733
they define the rules how *their* system is supposed to work, look like, and what the future directions will be.


The test kits that builds have to pass to be allowed to ship with the play market don't test all that much. Basically they just test that apps in the market will run.. they don't sanity test any of the UI changes, hacks to the frameworks etc that the vendor has done. If you don't need/want Play you can ship whatever you want.

All of that aside...

You seem to be complaining that Linux being flexible to be used in projects ranging from tightly embedded, IoT etc applications to mobile phones all the way up to HPC machines with hundreds of cores is a bad thing.. I would argue that it's not. Linux being generic enough (not tied to any one person or companies goals) that it can be used in all of these things is one of the most important things it has going for it.
Not everyone wants a fully featured desktop environment. The Linux kernel doesn't impose that on people that want to work on it and that's why there are thousands of people that contribute to Linux.

The grand OS you want would never have stuff like fully working ports for multiple abandoned architectures (m68k, H8, SuperH etc) because the people that are keeping that stuff working have no interest in keeping all the other crap you want working. It wouldn't have support for different security models, strong crypto etc because the people that need that stuff and pay for it to happen aren't interested in your "everything looks the same" desktop either.
 

Offline donpalmera

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Re: OS3.9 BB3+4 V1.2 Available
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 01:23:59 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;803743
Manufacturers try to differentiate and end up filling your device with battery draining crud


I only buy Nexus devices.

Quote from: psxphill;803743
that makes your phone behave differently to every other Android phone out there.


See above. And that's sort of what I said.. Google only has control what goes into AOSP and the test suite that needs to be passed for vendors to get the play market on their phones.

Quote from: psxphill;803743

They then offer updates for a limited time, because porting new builds is difficult as they only got binary blobs from the vendors.


Again, I only buy Nexus devices because of this. The source and the binary blobs are available from Google.

Quote from: psxphill;803743

Getting stuck on an old Android build is very bad news because it inherits all the security issues from Linux.


Got CVEs for all of them there security issues?

Quote from: psxphill;803743

So you either risk running an ancient official build,


Buy Nexus devices. You'll get security updates long enough that the internal resistance on the cell in the device is through the roof and you'll have to bin it before you get stranded in the land of no updates with Samsung users.

Quote from: psxphill;803743
or put your trust in one of the teenagers pulling together builds from a dozen different githubs with hundreds of updates cherry picked.


Not sure why their age matters to be honest. I'm pretty sure people in the 20's, 30's etc can write buggy software. If you have the modified source you can compare it with AOSP just in case those naughty kids put in some anti-OAP backdoors.

Quote from: psxphill;803743
If cyanogenmod is the only modern build available then sit back and wait for your mobile banking apps to start complaining that your phone is rooted, even though you didn't enable root on it yet.


https://www.google.com/nexus/

Quote from: psxphill;803743
My next phone will be running windows 10 mobile, if they support their phones as well as they do the desktop.


I just laughed so much I puked a little. You're paranoid about security so you're painting a massive bulls eye on your forehead?
 

Offline donpalmera

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Re: OS3.9 BB3+4 V1.2 Available
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 01:40:55 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;803740
No. I complain that this complexity overburdens the user by creating a system that is not managable by the average IT user


There are plenty of people out there that can barely use Windows and OSX that have moved to Ubuntu without too much trouble.
OSes are complex things, Windows, OSX etc are no different. If anything the only reason those OSes are any easier than a distro like Ubuntu is because they usually come preinstalled on the machine so essentially the hard parts have already been done by someone else.

AmigaOS was simple, elegant, whatever but it's a joke by today's standards. The fact that people are still fighting over the crumbs that remain of it like it's worth anything cracks me up.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803740

and that this is exactly the reason why we fail to see Linux on desktops.


I'm not sure why anyone thinks that Linux on the desktop is the one sign that Linux has won. I don't think the majority of kernel developers think that's the only thing that'll validate their work. I'm pretty sure the one guy that got the H8 support reintroduced recently wasn't constantly thinking "If I can't get KDE running on the tiny amount of DRAM this thing can address I might as well give up!". Linux has won like Skynet won in Terminator; Whether you like it or not it is now everywhere and controls your life.
 

Offline donpalmera

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Re: OS3.9 BB3+4 V1.2 Available
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 04:09:16 AM »
I've cut out some parts because I have stuff to do. I haven't edited out things I wanted to ignore...

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757
Go make an experiment. Take an average new laptop, try to install Ubuntu.


Have been running Debian on all of my machine including laptops for the past 15 years or so.. The last 5 years or so worth of laptops just worked after debian-installer had finished and I installed the non-free wifi firmware.
I don't think I've ever seen a Windows machine installed from the vanilla install media and not a restore disc that didn't need a lot of work to make all of the hardware work.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

However, in the end, it doesn't change a thing. Linux doesn't work well for the end user for such reasons.


Can we get some empirical evidence of that and not just your feels on the matter?

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757
Hardly ever for Linux. Guess why that is?


In the x86 world Intel, NVidia etc actively support Linux.. In the ARM world western vendors like TI, Atmel etc all have guys trying to get their drivers into the mainline kernel. You're a lot more likely to plug some random junk into a Linux machine and have it work than any other system IMHO.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

The Linux problem is the "kernel of the day problem". Lack of stable interfaces within the kernel. Impossible to write a kernel module that survives a kernel release without requiring recompilation,


The "kernel of the day" that is probably the most widely used kernel out there if you ignore some deeply embedded RTOS like FreeRTOS and uTRON.
Kernel modules from one kernel version aren't meant to loaded into a different version?! Oh noes what a massive problem!

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

restructuring or fixup of its interfaces towards the ever-changing kernel-internal interface layer.


Which layer are you talking about? It's easy to make some vague statements but they are pretty useless here if you consider how many wildly different subsystems Linux is comprised off. One of the things I hear all the time is that the people that maintain stuff like the networking stack are too strict about changes i.e. refusing to allow hardware NAT support in. I'd really like to know which subsystem you think is constantly changing under developers feet.. maybe you mean something fairly recent like device tree for ARM?

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

That's a lack of a high-level statement "these are the interfaces, don't touch them for the next two years". It does not happen.


Linus has a high level statement "Don't break userland". As a user you don't care if the way the business logic in the kernel works changes as long as the exposed interface is the same or has glue to present the legacy interface to userland.
I hope you realise there are -stable branches of the kernel that you can use if you don't like actually seeing progress.. Considering you're fighting over an OS that's been dead for decades maybe those aren't old enough.


Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

That doesn't make Linux irrelevant, of course. There is the server market


If you think Linux is just about servers you're either short sighted or being willfully ignorant.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

If we start the same thing with AmigaOs, we again end up with the "Kickstart of the day" problem


AmigaOS is A: totally dead B: totally worthless C: Not interesting to anyone except for nostalgia. There is never going to be an agreement on what to do with it because there isn't really anything to do with it except tinkering.
The best thing that could be done is let the source code go and let people that want to mess around with it do so. I suspect the reason that didn't happen already is a little bit of "We need to squeeze every last drop out of this" and "We're not actually sure what we own, we'll make a big noise about things like the source leak but in reality if it did go to court we'd have a hard time proving what we actually own". If I was one of the groups that think they own AmigaOS I would be happy that someone leaked the 3.1 code as the torrents for it will probably out last all of the commercial entities that are trying to make a buck off of it and is less likely to be lost forever.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757

There need to be *some* agreement where the journey should go, and someone who makes this decision. I simply want to stop all this compatibility mess


Trying to make AmigaOS and Amiga hardware not a massive kludge of 80's and 90's crap barely hanging on for life in the present is never going to happen. If anything it goes against the spirit of Amiga. It was always a kludge and that made it lovable and interesting.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;803757
making everything for free and inviting the hacker of the day to create even more noise by creating another patch of a system component.


I would argue that if the source for AmigaOS and commonly used stuff like P96 was all up on github there would be less of a problem with people random hacking binaries and sticking them in unofficial patch sets. People are lazy and although there might be forks they would most likely be pretty close to each other. What you seem to want is someone to dictate who gets to release stuff, who gets to pick version numbers etc. That could happen if there was an official AmigaOS opensource release with an official maintainer, an official P96 opensource release with an official maintainer. I doubt there are enough people with the knowledge and time to manage that stuff left but it would certainly be a better situation than the only options being to disassemble existing binaries and release unofficial patches/beg the Amiga gods of long long ago for the right to fix their precious.