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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« on: June 02, 2003, 12:19:29 AM »
>It's only got one flaw; it havn't got 24-bit gfx.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL!!

playability is far more important than gfx and sound.

if it had been 24 bit, it would go slow on most pc setups, thus become much more boring, thus not get so well liked, thus maybe not even reach you.
Think about that for a moment.


earlier on this thread the 'line of sight'
was mentioned, and I am currently in a team
that develops -In My Opinion- the best strategy game of all time. It has PERFECT line of sight,
if we mean the same thing.

Alltho' I feel that playability is everything in a game, I mainly help with gfx to it, (but that is only because I have no coding skills outside BASIC), And I have realized that it makes the game more beatiful, but has overall no effect on playability. That is; IF this game CAN get more playability. That I don't know.

I won't say its name,
because there is a (very) old version of it on aminet that I now think is somewhat crappy compared to its present state. :)

Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2003, 01:17:32 PM »

relying to 2 posts:


1st one:
--
The two features I'd like to see in an Amiga game:

1. A campaign editor like in Starcraft, with optional "simple mode" to quickly create a "just kill your enemy" map.
2. Easily replacable graphics for user customization.

Gameplay suggestions:
An army morale counter would add an interesting element as well.
--

I too wish games to have these things,
and I have supported the above in my game
'2Decide'
wich is available as freeware on aminet
and www.flyingpaper.com.



2nd one:
--
My own view on what makes a great strategy game is fairly clear to me on some points and very shaded knowledge on others. One of my main objections to many popular non turn based games, such as age of empires and similar, is that they are not a competition of minds but a competition of handling the user interface. As soon as you have learned the basic strategys all are pretty equal on that mather and the one whom is the fastest to use the keyboard and mouse is the winner.
--


HEAR HEAR!!..
I agree so much!!

in most RTS games
its only about moving your units back and forth as fast as possible,
totally lame, irritating, and boring.

maybe we should stop call these strategy games,
and call them 'click faster' games instead?...

most RTS games do not have much 'strategy'
in its real 'think and plan' form.

I believe it has got so popular because there
are many more ppl that want to take action immediately when in real life, instead of thinking first, and RTS games give them this.
And there is no 'think and plan' challenge
in moving your units back and forth,
so 'click faster' games fits well to those who don't want to think.

Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2003, 11:35:02 PM »

>How can you create the ultimate strategy game >with bad graphics!?


a common trap to fall into...


"Finally, all gfx complete, and it looks marvellous!!... ... but... where the heck is the playability?!???  is it behind that overly glamorously drawn castle, or did we bury it under the 782 meg 24bit gfx directory!????..."


no wonder todays games have so low playability when people think graphic matters much.

gfx are ment to present the game to the player,
not to confuse with detailed
and unrelevant art.

Gfx can also be used to bring out comedy to the user, but artistic gfx should be restricted to adventure or movie parts of a game, and not when the game requires varied user interaction,
like in strategy games.

So im not against beatiful art
if that is what you think.


Bridge was mentioned as a game with playability.
 Its playability came from all the various mind and personality elements around the game, and thus has nothing to do with how nice the cards look, or how much makeup the opponent wear, or how much artistic art there is carved into the table...

It would certainly add atmosphere to it,
but the bridge gameplay would not be changed by that.


...Hope you all get my message.

I know certain gamedeveloping companies use;
"gameplay first, then graphics."

and that is with good reason.

Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2003, 05:38:34 PM »

Then we mostly agree.


IMO playability matters 90%


>Best playability AND graphics.

If one make beatiful gfx,
then one must also see to that
the player wont be confused and mislead by it,
or unwantedly drawn to it.
for example that a background of a game
seems so real that it looks like it is a part of the foreground.
or forexample if the game character looks like he has more weapons, due to that (s)he is so graphically detailed.
or forexample that the gameworld looks so detailed that virtually all players are mislead to places that has no meaning in the game.

there are many problems that could occur from using good/detailed gfx.

but it would be positive for ppl that like art.

all such problems occuring from detailed gfx
can be solved by using simpler gfx.
 The playability will then automatically rise,
unless the playability sucks, and it is more enjoyable to look at all the gfx,
wich I have actually experienced on some games.


but I better (finally) get to the threads topic:

An ultimate strategy game should:

-Be easy to use.
Don't present alot of features to the player at once, but better give them further into the game.
The user will then also enjoy the given features more than if (s)he had got them all at once.

-Have little or no stress factors.
but if required, not for a long time, and big pauses between the stress situations,
as humans will not feel good after longer amounts of stress.

-Start easy, then get harder, possibly also be able to get harder by request from the player.

-Have gfx that is meaningfull to the game
and lets the player know what is going on easily.
if the gametype allows it, then always add humouristic gfx, cause its always pleasant for the player whether its bad or good humour.

-Have sounds that are perfect at telling you if a good or bad thing happened, and wich sounds cool, not lame. And NEVER EVER use sounds that sound annoying.
Like in gfx, humoristic sounds never hurt.
Forexample a high pitched human voice is always funny.

-Have different subgames,
either long term total change in gametype or short small games within the main game.
This because the human brain likes variation
and will tire if the same elements are present over roughly 15 minutes or more time.

-Never make the player wait unneccesary.
unless it is something relaxing,
like a story sequence.

-Have as many options as possible,
but not an option that clearly only has one good choice and everybody always use it.
But if there are too many options,
the user might not want to bother change any of them.
In that case, eliminate the least important options.

-Have many many elements that interfere with eachother. and also add random events.
Don't close the game away from the player, but make it interact as much as possible.
If there is a catapult in the game, then the player will ofcourse want to try it, so make it available to be used.

-support ppl that like to be creative,
in terms of making maps or similar.

-Avoid situations where the player can get stuck or does not know what to do at all.

-Be friendly to the player, not wanting to kill the player in a hostile way.
Also, if possible, have a beginner mode.


Realtime or Turn based, 2D or 3D:

They have little effect on gameplay,
Other than that realtime adds a sense of a an alive world, but increases stress on the player.
Turn based adds time to think, and more control to the player.

2D gives a better overview,
while 3D can be annoying because the monitor is 2D so one cannot move the head to see what is behind an object.


But a final conclution is that different ppl like different games, so an 'ultimate' strategy game will probably never be.
The points above is probably more in my liking than in any others.
Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2003, 10:32:30 PM »
>I agree with what your saying about adding stuff >which isn`t required, but the other stuff has to >be perfect, for its function. No loose ends, if >you get what I mean?

if you are talking to me, then no.

>Thanks Im>bE. I'll take that onboard.

np, I only wish more game developers would.

I forgot to mention that it is nice when a game
has an unseen type of play, and not just another clone of something dating long back.

btw, if anyone needs help on designing a game with playability, then I would be glad to help.
 im not some distant being in a distant world,
but a lame boring human like the rest, so feel free to email me whenever.

Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2003, 01:07:27 AM »

reply to:
--
astonishing fact with it is that is playable with only a deck of cards.
--

as you and I pointed out,
it is a good game because of the mind activity between the players.
I have not played it myself tho'

so the trouble of achieving something like it with a computer, is the absence of another human.

But when another human IS present, then most multiplayer games 'at same computer' are fun, and some very fun.

the 2 player game I have played the most like this, is Crossfire 1. It is very playable, and leads to much 'mind fun' around it when trying to outsmart/trick the other player.

Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
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Offline Im>bE

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Re: The ultimate strategy game
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2003, 12:36:31 AM »
--
i have lots of original ideas, but since ill be working on such a game, they will be put into mine!
--

then he will play your game and clone them.

or you will play his game and clone his ideas.

don't you think it would be better if you teamed togheter and made a game twice as good as either?

Teamwork is very good!
a game loves teamwork, because then it gets much better, because 2 heads get more ideas and can figure out things better than 1 alone.

--
still looking for graphics/animation artists BTW... perhaps ill start a new game company
--

I guess your future speech to your company would have a final conclution of:
"...but since I am in charge, the money goes to me!"


Its the likes of your attitude that make all the greed and ego in this world.

I am only interested in making fun games.
Money only matters when I buy food.

If I got an awesome idea for a game,
I would never hold it back!

FUN 4EVER!


Im not asking you to reveeal your idea,
cause you are only a victim of the modern society
where money and fame is presented as some state of undescribed happiness, when the truth is that neither fame or money gives you happiness in the long run.
(pls start a new thread if you wanna reply to this here paragraph)
Hopelessly addicted to the world\'s best strategy game.
Total Chaos on YouTube