Amiga.org

Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: Forcie on February 13, 2011, 12:55:36 PM

Title: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Forcie on February 13, 2011, 12:55:36 PM
Thomas Hirsch of the Natami Team has just manufactured the first Natami MX boards. This is the board revision that will be sold to the public, provided that the board bringup and hardware tests goes well.

Natami is a clone of the classic Amiga computer and its architecture. It is a 68k-based computer containing the classic Amiga chipset with enhancements and quite a few modern hardware features.

The MX board features:
-Altera FPGA from the Cyclone IV-series, containing the enhanced  Amiga chipset "SuperAGA" as well as other system logic, and the brand new 68k CPU design  "N68050"
-512 MB DDR2 SDRAM (onboard)
-1x PCI slot, expandable to 3x PCI with a PCI riser
-"SyncZorro" expansion slot, for adding f.e. a CPU card (68060 card will be available as an option for this slot)
-DVI-I port for 31kHz video (one can connect both analog VGA and digital DVI), scandoubling function for legacy modes
-15kHz RGB-output/input expansion slot (for optional 15kHz card)
-Realtek RTL8110 Gigabit Ethernet
-NEC USB2 controller and USB ports
-3,5 inch IDE port
-Internal Compact Flash connector (IDE)
-Kickstart flash memory
-Floppy connector (Amiga and PC drives both usable)
-Amiga serial port (although reduced to 9-pin)
-Amiga parallel port
-2x Amiga joystick/mouse port
-4x Cinch/RCA connectors for stereo sound output and input
-PS/2 keyboard/mouse ports (old bigbox Amiga keyboards are connectable)
-Classic Amiga LED:s along with scandoubler LED

Natami MX pictures:
http://www.natami.net/hardware.htm
Natami MX bringup thread:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=33366

Please note that not all components are soldered in the pictures above.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Magitius on February 13, 2011, 01:44:06 PM
This is exciting news! :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Hattig on February 13, 2011, 01:55:21 PM
Great news.

Here's a useful annotated picture of the motherboard.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7701/natamimx.jpg
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: ChaosLord on February 13, 2011, 02:22:29 PM
Thomas Hirsch FTW!
Natami Forever!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 13, 2011, 02:26:05 PM
Wow, this is real?. never thought it would see the light of day.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: brownb2 on February 13, 2011, 02:39:57 PM
That's brilliant! When can I expect to see this in WinUAE? X^)

[EDIT]In all seriousness as a 68000 series machine it's be useful to see benchmarks or some way of judging performance comparatively to the A1200/A4000 and variants before deciding to buy one - a price point would be useful too. I somehow doubt this machine (with case) would be around a magic £200-£300 though (i.e. original Amiga price)... Might be cool to see it in a Walker case however, since it is really what the Walker should have been.[/EDIT]
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: F1Lupo on February 13, 2011, 02:41:55 PM
:pint::banana::pint::banana::pint::banana:
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Hattig on February 13, 2011, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: brownb2;615256
That's brilliant! When can I expect to see this in WinUAE? X^)

[EDIT]In all seriousness as a 68000 series machine it's be useful to see benchmarks or some way of judging performance comparatively to the A1200/A4000 and variants before deciding to buy one - a price point would be useful too. I somehow doubt this machine (with case) would be around a magic £200-£300 though (i.e. original Amiga price)... Might be cool to see it in a Walker case however, since it is really what the Walker should have been.[/EDIT]


From what I've read on the Natami forums, I believe that the N68050 will be running at over 100MHz in the FPGA, and that it will be quite fast per clock. However there aren't that many details out about this CPU, the Natami website still talks about the N68070 core that they will be doing in the future. There's very very little information on the N68050 core they have designed, apart from it being around 30,000 HCELLs in the FPGA.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: DCAmiga on February 13, 2011, 03:21:20 PM
Quote from: brownb2;615256
I somehow doubt this machine (with case) would be around a magic £200-£300 though (i.e. original Amiga price)... [/EDIT]

The A1000 (original Amiga) retailed for 1,295 USD in September 1985 ;) this Natami MX board is a 6 layered FPGA so yeah will be probably more then 300 pounds. If its under $1000 US I wouldnt have a prob buying one; 68k @ 133mhz, SuperAGA (100 times faster), chunky and bob modes, native amiga 3D core - tami (drool), double scanner built in, 512 MB of DDR2, onboard LAN (Gbit) and USB 2, plus much more. :rtfm:
 
Great NEWS and keep up the good work Natami, I hope the beta testing dont take too long and we can finally see some benchmarks :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Dragster on February 13, 2011, 03:35:00 PM
Wow, pretty amazing. Now I would seriously consider buying one of these! Great work!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: EDanaII on February 13, 2011, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: brownb2;615256
In all seriousness as a 68000 series machine it's be useful to see benchmarks or some way of judging performance comparatively to the A1200/A4000 and variants before deciding to buy one - a price point would be useful too.


I'd also love to see benchmarks against comparable PC hardware. Not today's hardware, mind you, just PC hardware of comparable capabilities. I'm interested in how the Amiga architecture would have stood up if it had kept up with the PC.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: nicholas on February 13, 2011, 03:58:32 PM
Possibility that this board may find itself in an official Commodore Amiga machine from Iran is VERY high! :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Ral-Clan on February 13, 2011, 04:07:49 PM
If this has a very high level of compatibility with original Amiga hardware banging software then it will be hard for me to resist.  I expect we won't see this actually for sale for about a year (needs lots of testing to make sure no further revisions are needed)?

Will it be possible to use original Amiga mice on the joyports and original Amiga MIDI interfaces on the serial port (with 9 to 25 pin adapter)?
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Darrin on February 13, 2011, 04:12:04 PM
Very nice.  This could be an expensive year for me hardware-wise.  I've ordered the Chameleon, I'll buy the FPGA Arcade as soon as it is ready and I'll grab one of these too.  :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: brownb2 on February 13, 2011, 04:25:44 PM
Quote from: DCAmiga;615260
...68k @ 133mhz, SuperAGA (100 times faster), chunky and bob modes, native amiga 3D core - tami (drool), double scanner built in, 512 MB of DDR2, onboard LAN (Gbit) and USB 2, plus much more. :rtfm:
 

To be fair the RTFM means nothing (incidentally I had read the aims of the project) - a RISC cpu at the same clock would run rings around an 68K, likewise a native 3D core means S3 Virge or Geforce GTX 400 series performance. I see the niché in this product being a low power computing device with existing software that at a push can perform with the big boys but you wouldn't want to do heavy ray tracing/play the latest 3D shooter or emulate anything better than a PS2* on it when there are better machines available, i.e. its for casual usage and to satisfy an itch both in closure to an old architecture that needs perfecting and for fan base to get an update. :)

* and this is exactly why I think we'd need stats - to see where the bar can be set against comparable systems.

[EDIT]My ref. to the original Amiga price was of course referring to the A500 at its £200-£400 price, not the original original Amiga :)[/EDIT]
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: drewz21 on February 13, 2011, 04:30:36 PM
Sign me up for one!   This is great news!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Matt_H on February 13, 2011, 04:36:01 PM
Oh, wow, I had no idea they were this far along. Will almost definitely pick up one of these upon release!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Darrin on February 13, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: brownb2;615272
To be fair the RTFM means nothing (incidentally I had read the aims of the project) - a RISC cpu at the same clock would run rings around an 68K, likewise a native 3D core means S3 Virge or Geforce GTX 400 series performance. I see the niché in this product being a low power computing device with existing software that at a push can perform with the big boys but you wouldn't want to do heavy ray tracing/play the latest 3D shooter or emulate anything better than a PS2* on it when there are better machines available, i.e. its for casual usage and to satisfy an itch both in closure to an old architecture that needs perfecting and for fan base to get an update. :)

* and this is exactly why I think we'd need stats - to see where the bar can be set against comparable systems.

[EDIT]My ref. to the original Amiga price was of course referring to the A500 at its £200-£400 price, not the original original Amiga :)[/EDIT]


With PCI slots and USB, this looks like a nice replacement for my A4000 in a tower with Mediator and Deneb.

The question is, whether they have a usable USB stack ready to roll otherwise they can stick 100 USB ports on it and they'll mean nothing.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Tripitaka on February 13, 2011, 04:49:03 PM
I've been keeping an eyer on Natami for some time now and this is great news indeed. The price will be a big issue but we must remember that it should be compared to buying a vintage Amiga with comparable capability. That means accelerator, USB add on board, sound card etc. From this point of view it may well turn out to be a real bargain. Well done to all the Natami folks involved.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Hattig on February 13, 2011, 04:53:20 PM
A RISC CPU isn't much use when you want a 68k Amiga though.

We will hopefully find out soon how well the N68050 performs. If it can do one instruction per clock at 133MHz, that's certainly not too bad.

However we need better benchmarking software on the Amiga than SysInfo!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Cammy on February 13, 2011, 05:12:02 PM
We have this for more thorough benchmarking - http://aminet.net/package/util/moni/AIBB_65

It just needs a module written for the Natami hardware.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Ral-Clan on February 13, 2011, 05:13:01 PM
Will this be fast enough to run Audio Evolution with effects?  I know Audio Evolution really required a 68060 to run at a minimum level of useability.  The ability to run a decent multi-track audio DAW would be a requirement for me.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: amigasociety on February 13, 2011, 05:27:41 PM
Quote from: Matt_H;615277
Oh, wow, I had no idea they were this far along. Will almost definitely pick up one of these upon release!

Wondering if they have surpassed the X1000 in terms of getting boards made and in developers hands.  Sounds like these boards and heading out now to those select few so that is sweet.  Maybe a this year release to general public?  I sure hope we also get some good news on X1000 soon.  Looks like I might have to buy both this year if they get to sellers shelves.  8-)

tj
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: deadwood on February 13, 2011, 05:37:35 PM
I wonder if any of the Natami devs will be trying to get AROS m68k running on the board :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: orb85750 on February 13, 2011, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: Hattig;615284
A RISC CPU isn't much use when you want a 68k Amiga though.

We will hopefully find out soon how well the N68050 performs. If it can do one instruction per clock at 133MHz, that's certainly not too bad.

However we need better benchmarking software on the Amiga than SysInfo!


OK, so is the N68050 like an improved 68040 or a degraded 68060?  Perhaps there's a write-up somewhere?
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Hattig on February 13, 2011, 06:17:53 PM
Quote from: deadwood;615298
I wonder if any of the Natami devs will be trying to get AROS m68k running on the board :)


I believe this is one of the aims, so that they can ship it fully functional. There's certainly been talk about it on the Natami forum.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Karlos on February 13, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Forcie;615244
The MX board features:
-Altera FPGA from the Cyclone IV-series, containing the enhanced  Amiga chipset "SuperAGA" as well as other system logic, and the brand new 68k CPU design  "N68050"
-512 MB DDR2 SDRAM (onboard)
-1x PCI slot, expandable to 3x PCI with a PCI riser
-"SyncZorro" expansion slot, for adding f.e. a CPU card (68060 card will be available as an option for this slot)
-DVI-I port for 31kHz video (one can connect both analog VGA and digital DVI), scandoubling function for legacy modes
-15kHz RGB-output/input expansion slot (for optional 15kHz card)
-Realtek RTL8110 Gigabit Ethernet
-NEC USB2 controller and USB ports
-3,5 inch IDE port
-Internal Compact Flash connector (IDE)
-Kickstart flash memory
-Floppy connector (Amiga and PC drives both usable)
-Amiga serial port (although reduced to 9-pin)
-Amiga parallel port
-2x Amiga joystick/mouse port
-4x Cinch/RCA connectors for stereo sound output and input
-PS/2 keyboard/mouse ports (old bigbox Amiga keyboards are connectable)
-Classic Amiga LED:s along with scandoubler LED


(http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f170/133143d1252671957-evora-racecar-house-do-want_thumbnail.jpg)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Forcie on February 13, 2011, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: ral-clan;615267
Will it be possible to use original Amiga mice on the joyports and original Amiga MIDI interfaces on the serial port (with 9 to 25 pin adapter)?

Yes to both questions. The joy/mouse ports are banging the hardware registers exactly like on a C= machine. I think that the only serial peripheral you cannot use with the Natami serial port is Amiga serial port samplers (since the serial port audio leads are not there. But since there are oldschool parallel port samplers too, it isn't really much of a problem. Besides, we have hifi audio in... ;) ).
I am going to be using an Amiga MIDI interface with my Natami myself.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 13, 2011, 08:04:51 PM
That's good to know. I was curious about using real Amiga hardware with it. A midi interface was exactly what I was wondering about. pretty cool!


Quote from: Forcie;615323
Yes to both questions. The joy/mouse ports are banging the hardware registers exactly like on a C= machine. I think that the only serial peripheral you cannot use with the Natami serial port is Amiga serial port samplers (since the serial port audio leads are not there. But since there are oldschool parallel port samplers too, it isn't really much of a problem. Besides, we have hifi audio in... ;) ).
I am going to be using an Amiga MIDI interface with my Natami myself.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 13, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
sweeeet.  I think I may have jumped too soon onto a 4000 now :lol:
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: x303 on February 13, 2011, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: Cammy;615292
We have this for more thorough benchmarking - http://aminet.net/package/util/moni/AIBB_65

      It just needs a module written for the Natami hardware.
Notice that aibb crashes on some machines, like my blizzppc 060 (even with caches off), so it might also crash on natami. The only way to get it to work is running it in 68000 mode, which is not what you would like on the natami.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: actung_bab on February 13, 2011, 10:01:52 PM
well  eat my hat wow this is very cool news well done guys
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Ral-Clan on February 13, 2011, 10:59:27 PM
Quote from: Forcie;615323
Yes to both questions. The joy/mouse ports are banging the hardware registers exactly like on a C= machine. I think that the only serial peripheral you cannot use with the Natami serial port is Amiga serial port samplers (since the serial port audio leads are not there. But since there are oldschool parallel port samplers too, it isn't really much of a problem. Besides, we have hifi audio in... ;) ).
I am going to be using an Amiga MIDI interface with my Natami myself.


Great!  What about original keyboards?  There was an old Natami Youtube video where they seemed to have an original A3000 keyboard hooked up.  That would be very nice.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 13, 2011, 11:04:12 PM
Quote from: ral-clan;615346
Great!  What about original keyboards?  There was an old Natami Youtube video where they seemed to have an original A3000 keyboard hooked up.  That would be very nice.


Or an original A4000 keyboard :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 13, 2011, 11:11:59 PM
It says that old big box Amiga keyboards are compatible in the original post. :)



Quote from: ral-clan;615346
Great!  What about original keyboards?  There was an old Natami Youtube video where they seemed to have an original A3000 keyboard hooked up.  That would be very nice.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: ChaosLord on February 13, 2011, 11:14:52 PM
You can also connect an A500 keyboard.  Don't throw your old broken A500s away!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheGoose on February 13, 2011, 11:15:55 PM
Holy Toledo!

Really cool that it's 68K, and the rest of the hardware aint too shabby either.

Drool ...
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheGoose on February 13, 2011, 11:39:25 PM
Quote from: brownb2;615272
To be fair the RTFM means nothing (incidentally I

[EDIT]My ref. to the original Amiga price was of course referring to the A500 at its £200-£400 price, not the original original Amiga :)[/EDIT]


I think I remember my Dad bought our A1000 (recently used) for 1100.00 USD. Had:
1084S
DF1 floppy
256K front ram card.

Hope to see some YouTube posts...
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Franko on February 13, 2011, 11:48:41 PM
Drool... where's the buy it now button... :)

Don't care what the price is, me want's one, now... :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: XDelusion on February 13, 2011, 11:52:03 PM
This is awesome!!! Finally a REAL Amiga. :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: runequester on February 14, 2011, 12:29:26 AM
This is pretty much the coolest thing ever.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Retro_71 on February 14, 2011, 02:26:13 AM
GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!! ME WANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There goes my idea to upgrade my old miggies think i will be leaving them as is............
FPGA Arcade and Natami... What a year...
Can't stop smiling or Drooling!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: runequester on February 14, 2011, 02:27:47 AM
How many people thought they could buy a brand new amiga accelerator card in 2010... and now the chance of a brand new amiga in 2011. Not shabby for the old girl :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Retro_71 on February 14, 2011, 02:49:03 AM
I just love guy's like these they are individuals or small group but they quietly go about doing there things unlike some companies that are all talk. Unlike other projects this is is as close to fully compatible Amiga as you are likely to get unless you have 4 Amiga's.

Can't wait for the bring up to be done hope there are not to many error/problems on the board.

But as Tripitaka said if it cost as much as my 4000 + deneb + indivision + GVP 4060 + Fast ATA MK V then i would be happy, but truth be told i don't care what the price is i am buying one. To have new hardware to run all my Amiga software on and not having to worry if my 16+ yo hardware will work tomorrow is a big weight of my chest.

Also to all the people who said Vapour ware.... :p :p :p :p :p :p :p
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: runequester on February 14, 2011, 02:54:40 AM
yeah, the price will be interesting, but I am willing to pay a pretty good sum for a machine like this
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2011, 02:58:03 AM
The best news is that with the FPGA Arcade rumoured to be around the 200 EURO mark, we now have two options like we used to back in the "glory days" when you picked between the A500 and the A2000 or the A1200 and A4000.

To me, my FPGA Arcade is going to be my games machine, especially as it will be running multiple systems (C64, Spectrum, Atari ST and classic arcade games), while the Natami is a replacement for my more "serious" A4000.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Retro_71 on February 14, 2011, 03:06:36 AM
Quote from: Darrin;615388
The best news is that with the FPGA Arcade rumoured to be around the 200 EURO mark, we now have two options like we used to back in the "glory days" when you picked between the A500 and the A2000 or the A1200 and A4000.

To me, my FPGA Arcade is going to be my games machine, especially as it will be running multiple systems (C64, Spectrum, Atari ST and classic arcade games), while the Natami is a replacement for my more "serious" A4000.

Agree with you 100%. Although the Natami is supposed to run anything from 1.3 to 3.9 i will still be using it as my heavy weight Amiga Computer. Can't wait to see those Natami only games too.. :D

Now all we have to wait for is the testing then production.... i hope they produce enough.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Franko on February 14, 2011, 03:15:22 AM
Quote from: Retro_71;615386
Also to all the people who said Vapour ware.... :p :p :p :p :p :p :p


+ 1,000,000 ... :)

Just spent the past two weeks spending nearly 800 quid buying loads of old Commodore & Amiga goodies from eBay, AmigaKit and here to finish of my collection, but the NatAmi is gonna have a very special place in my wee Commodore Museum... :)

(just hope the old ticker doesn't give out with all the excitement before it goes on sale... ;))
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2011, 03:18:52 AM
Quote from: Retro_71;615386
Also to all the people who said Vapour ware.... :p :p :p :p :p :p :p


Well, I was one of them and the only way I know how to apologise to the Natami team is to purchase their product.  I just hope they accept it.  :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Franko on February 14, 2011, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: Darrin;615392
Well, I was one of them and the only way I know how to apologise to the Natami team is to purchase their product.  I just hope they accept it.  :D


Go to the back of the queue you naughty Welshman... ;)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2011, 04:01:58 AM
Quote from: Franko;615394
Go to the back of the queue you naughty Welshman... ;)


LOL.  THey'll probably send it to me with Kickstart 1.1 ROMs and the joystick inputs reversed!  :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Ral-Clan on February 14, 2011, 04:06:21 AM
Quote from: XDelusion;615358
This is awesome!!! Finally a REAL Amiga. :)


Yup, this is the first piece of new hardware that I consider a real bonafide 100% Amiga.  I like all of the other options (X1000, MorphOS, UAE) but this is a REAL hardware Amiga in the classic sense.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Retro_71 on February 14, 2011, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: ral-clan;615401
Yup, this is the first piece of new hardware that I consider a real bonafide 100% Amiga.  I like all of the other options (X1000, MorphOS, UAE) but this is a REAL hardware Amiga in the classic sense.


Yep that's why i am excited!!! This is an Amiga in all but name (more then any other product out there) with AROS or OS3.9 cant wait to start programming on it....
The only real problem is a case for it... :D may have to dig up my woodworking tools and Dremel... :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: vidarh on February 14, 2011, 10:14:32 AM
Quote from: Hattig;615305
I believe this is one of the aims, so that they can ship it fully functional. There's certainly been talk about it on the Natami forum.


There's even a "please support the AROS kickstart replacement bounty" banner on the Natami site. There's some purists there that insist on wanting AmigaOS, though, and they'll get theirs too as the Natami team does have a  bunch of licenses to bundle with the boards (just as well, since though AROS m68k is improving very rapidly, it likely still will be a while before it'll be suitable for regular use)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: AeroMan on February 14, 2011, 01:25:08 PM
This is very good news. :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Argo on February 14, 2011, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: Hattig;615305
I believe this is one of the aims, so that they can ship it fully functional. There's certainly been talk about it on the Natami forum.


A completely community made Amiga! Get out...
Sweet!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: dammy on February 14, 2011, 02:11:59 PM
Very nice, well wishes to the Devs of NatAmi to get this into production.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: ToddH on February 14, 2011, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: Argo;615482
A completely community made Amiga! Get out...
Sweet!


Awesome ain't it?
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheGoose on February 14, 2011, 02:53:02 PM
Quote from: Franko;615357
Drool... where's the buy it now button... :)

Don't care what the price is, me want's one, now... :)

Here! Press the shiny 'But it Now' button !

(http://images3.makefive.com/images/news-business/design/top-5-coolest-animated-gifs/the-shiny-candy-like-button---ren-and-stimpy-7.gif)

Uh this is kinda trumps the other FPGA Replay Board -  AGA project going on though... It's crazy we have all these 'options' emerging, but great.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: runequester on February 14, 2011, 04:53:02 PM
Quote from: Argo;615482
A completely community made Amiga! Get out...
Sweet!


An amiga that can't be taken away from us :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: desiv on February 14, 2011, 06:03:21 PM
Quote from: TheGoose;615497
Uh this is kinda trumps the other FPGA Replay Board -  AGA project going on though... It's crazy we have all these 'options' emerging, but great.
I love all the options showing up..

Not sure it "trumps" the FPGA Arcade tho, although it definitely will be the higher end of the choices..

I see 3 layers (soon) for 68k Amiga fans.
-Real hardware
-FPGA Arcade as the lower end games mostly machine.  68030 speed, enhanced AGA (at least more CHIP RAM)...
-Natami as the high end solution.

As much as I love the specs of the Natami, I'm thinking the price is probably more than I can justify for my hobby....  At least now..
When it's released tho, I reserve the right to change my mind.. ;-)

desiv
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Khephren on February 14, 2011, 06:14:40 PM
Quote from: Darrin;615392
Well, I was one of them and the only way I know how to apologise to the Natami team is to purchase their product.  I just hope they accept it.  :D


Bloody hell, I never thought i'd see the day!!

Now, about this is 050, what is it? I must have missed it, I know they were going for an 070, but I though machines released before that would have a real 060?

Who is your 050 and what does he do?
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: kolla on February 14, 2011, 07:06:08 PM
What? 5 whole pages about Natami, where the heck is Piru?!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: EDanaII on February 14, 2011, 07:22:02 PM
Quote from: kolla;615561
What? 5 whole pages about Natami, where the heck is Piru?!


Scrambling to get a copy of MorphOS ready for it. ;)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: runequester on February 14, 2011, 08:30:46 PM
The morph people are probably busy ebaying for old macs :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheGoose on February 14, 2011, 09:12:36 PM
Quote from: runequester;615571
The morph people are probably busy ebaying for old macs :)


:lol:

All my sitting on the fence is now totally paying off!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: kickstart on February 14, 2011, 10:15:47 PM
Over paper sounds good but need software, thats the difficult part.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: odin on February 14, 2011, 10:53:46 PM
Hmmm, very interesting. Who'd have thought vapourware could turn into solidware these days in Amigaland. Still, I'll believe it when it has been delivered to buyers (might even include me, depending on price =).
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: nicholas on February 14, 2011, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: kickstart;615581
Over paper sounds good but need software, thats the difficult part.


It's compatible with KS/WB 1.x to 3.9 and all hardware banging and OS friendly software.

What more do you want?
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: DaNi on February 14, 2011, 11:11:48 PM
Quote from: nicholas;615587
It's compatible with KS/WB 1.x to 3.9 and all hardware banging and OS friendly software.

What more do you want?


and... have real amiga compatible rom or uses openfirmware?
N68050 is a real cpu or what?

is pretty a new classic amiga remake this natami :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: nicholas on February 14, 2011, 11:22:01 PM
Quote from: DaNi;615589
and... have real amiga compatible rom or uses openfirmware?
N68050 is a real cpu or what?

is pretty a new classic amiga remake this natami :)


Any 68k Kickstart ROM AFAIK.

The 68050 is an FPGA implementation of a fast 68k.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: redfox on February 15, 2011, 12:30:19 AM
Sweet :D

Congratulations to everyone involved.

---
redfox
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Franko on February 15, 2011, 12:58:53 AM
Quote from: TheGoose;615497
Here! Press the shiny 'But it Now' button !

(http://images3.makefive.com/images/news-business/design/top-5-coolest-animated-gifs/the-shiny-candy-like-button---ren-and-stimpy-7.gif)

Uh this is kinda trumps the other FPGA Replay Board -  AGA project going on though... It's crazy we have all these 'options' emerging, but great.


Me bum's gone numb trying that... :(

Got a nice bundle of freshly printed Scottish £50 notes here (always knew me Mac & its printer would find a use one day) waiting to be stuffed in a plain brown envelope marked NATAMI... :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: HenryCase on February 15, 2011, 01:13:17 AM
Quote from: odin;615586
Hmmm, very interesting. Who'd have thought vapourware could turn into solidware these days in Amigaland.

Where have you been!! Most announced Amiga products get released nowadays. The era of vapourware seems to be behind us (for good, hopefully). :-)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: trekiej on February 15, 2011, 01:46:01 AM
Congratulations Natami Team.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: SamuraiCrow on February 15, 2011, 02:01:42 AM
Quote from: Khephren;615539
Bloody hell, I never thought i'd see the day!!

Now, about this is 050, what is it? I must have missed it, I know they were going for an 070, but I though machines released before that would have a real 060?

Who is your 050 and what does he do?


Plans have changed.  The '070 was going to be faster than an '060 per clock in every way and superscalar.  Trying to build one that is not superscalar is plenty challenging enough.  The N68050 is the precursor to the N68070.  It should be about as fast as an '060 per clock but uses other techniques to achieve that.

The primary feature of the N68050 is that it can decode a pair of opcodes and figure out if they can be combined into one opcode.  Some combinations are pairs that result in a 3 operand opcode such as a register move followed by an add to the same destination register, a forward branch over a single operation converts to a predicated operation, and so on.  This feature is called opcode fusion.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: persia on February 15, 2011, 02:47:34 AM
It could easily fit inside one of these:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Power_mac_g4_cube.png)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: smerf on February 15, 2011, 03:08:38 AM
Quote from: DCAmiga;615260
The A1000 (original Amiga) retailed for 1,295 USD in September 1985 ;) this Natami MX board is a 6 layered FPGA so yeah will be probably more then 300 pounds. If its under $1000 US I wouldnt have a prob buying one; 68k @ 133mhz, SuperAGA (100 times faster), chunky and bob modes, native amiga 3D core - tami (drool), double scanner built in, 512 MB of DDR2, onboard LAN (Gbit) and USB 2, plus much more. :rtfm:
 
Great NEWS and keep up the good work Natami, I hope the beta testing dont take too long and we can finally see some benchmarks :D


Hi,

@DCAmiga

You would actually pay under $1000 for this?

Ok, I just bought a 6 core 1090T with a Radeon 5770 graphics card with a MSI board and 4 gigs of memory for about $600. So once you get this 133mhz fantastic machine going what are you going to play a twenty year old game called doom. I don't see the cost to performance ratio.

I originally bought the Amiga 1000 for these reasons:

1. My Otrana portable Z80/8088 portable suitcase computer quit working.
2. After looking around, the only PC type computer that I could afford at the time was a Tandy.
3. The Amiga 1000 hit the streets and impressed me with the Transformer, which gave me enough PC compatibility to do my programming and sell my PC programs.
Gave me the opportunity to learn programming in 68K mode and had a lot of new neat goodies to play with.

Believe it or not I don't like going backwards, and especially going backwards and spending twice the money for stepping backwards.

I still use the Amiga and I have it setup right next to my 6 core pc. I love showing off the Amiga 4000 because no one believes that such an old computer can operate like it does.

Oh well this is why the Amiga is in the situation that it is in, because I would like to see the Amiga do the following:

CPU -- move faster, like ghz not mhz.
Graphics -- advanced to millions of colors, shaders, etc. with faster graphics. AGA is dead.
Sound -- I want stereo quality, not 4, 8, 16 or 32 voices.
Hardware -- SATA, USB, USB 2.0, USB 3.0., media card readers.

Face it 133mhz is not going to play a DVD movie or do streaming.

Still stuck in the dark ages.

smerf
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: smerf on February 15, 2011, 03:19:23 AM
Hi,

Anyway Congrats Natami,

I hope you have success on this endeavor. Who knows I may buy one if I hear good reports, about it. Just wish it was faster with a better processor.

All though I think the rest of what I read was pretty cool, just needs to step up to the ghz range for me.

smerf
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: EDanaII on February 15, 2011, 03:38:31 AM
@ Persia

I dunno... were to buy one I'd stick it in a lap top, an A1000 case or one of these:
http://www.aumro.com/products.html

:)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: TheGoose on February 15, 2011, 03:59:32 AM
Quote from: smerf;615640
Hi,

Anyway Congrats Natami,

I hope you have success on this endeavor. Who knows I may buy one if I hear good reports, about it. Just wish it was faster with a better processor.

All though I think the rest of what I read was pretty cool, just needs to step up to the ghz range for me.

smerf


I don't want to be, or come across as adversarial but I think you don't get it. Nobody will remember or care about your 1 Mil Ghz 6 core thingy in 2 months from now. Forget about "retro computing" this ushers in the concept of boutique computing not unlike the way guitar shops have gone.

Finding a thing that is unique in a world of common place, is worth something. But think you are a bit too 'Spock' to understand that.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: trekiej on February 15, 2011, 04:47:11 AM
I like the idea of reconfigurable computing.
This may be a first for Amiga, or maybe the C-One with commodore.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: kedawa on February 15, 2011, 05:49:00 AM
I can't wait to see how the finished product turns out.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: jj on February 15, 2011, 08:32:35 AM
Quote from: HenryCase;615617
Where have you been!! Most announced Amiga products get released nowadays. The era of vapourware seems to be behind us (for good, hopefully). :-)

 
Your back then :)
 
Thought you were gone for good :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Khephren on February 15, 2011, 08:50:10 AM
Quote from: smerf;615636
Hi,

Ok, I just bought a 6 core 1090T with a Radeon 5770 graphics card with a MSI board and 4 gigs of memory for about $600. So once you get this 133mhz fantastic machine going what are you going to play a twenty year old game called doom. I don't see the cost to performance ratio.

I originally bought the Amiga 1000 for these reasons:

1. My Otrana portable Z80/8088 portable suitcase computer quit working.
2. After looking around, the only PC type computer that I could afford at the time was a Tandy.
3. The Amiga 1000 hit the streets and impressed me with the Transformer, which gave me enough PC compatibility to do my programming and sell my PC programs.
Gave me the opportunity to learn programming in 68K mode and had a lot of new neat goodies to play with.

Believe it or not I don't like going backwards, and especially going backwards and spending twice the money for stepping backwards.

I still use the Amiga and I have it setup right next to my 6 core pc. I love showing off the Amiga 4000 because no one believes that such an old computer can operate like it does.

Oh well this is why the Amiga is in the situation that it is in, because I would like to see the Amiga do the following:

CPU -- move faster, like ghz not mhz.
Graphics -- advanced to millions of colors, shaders, etc. with faster graphics. AGA is dead.
Sound -- I want stereo quality, not 4, 8, 16 or 32 voices.
Hardware -- SATA, USB, USB 2.0, USB 3.0., media card readers.

Face it 133mhz is not going to play a DVD movie or do streaming.

smerf

Of course most of us would like to see an uber fast Amiga. I'd like an ARM variant. Part of me wants a modern amiga, and part of me is like a classic car collector.
But I think many of us are a different sort of Amigan to you, the Amiga is a classic architecture to me, and the NatAmi is an obvious step up, and continuation from even the best classic machine.
I don't really care to much about ghz for the Amiga, I have two multi core multi ghz PC's for that. They are my work, the Amiga is my hobby. I want NatAmi, and I want an ARM AROS machine. I'm greedy.

AGA is dead, and the Amiga is dead? we all know this, but still it's our hobby.

Also the graphics, sound, and hardware -as far as I know NatAmi supports most of those things (excluding shaders, i'd imagine it's a fixed pipeline).

As for DVD and streaming, It would be nice, but not a necessity. I own 5 devices for playing back DVD's, and i'll generally watch a DVD on the 42" LCD and not a computer screen. Anyway An 060 is not as weak as it's Mhz rating might appear, it might surprise you.

I think your happy with UAE, and I have no problem with that, tools for the job etc. But I've always wanted a new classic Amiga with 24bit graphics, 16bit sound and above 060 performance, running AmigaOS native. Maybe in a few years i'll have one.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: runequester on February 15, 2011, 08:58:40 AM
yeah, its the same reason everybody got rid of their harleys and replaced them with korean scooters.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: DaNi on February 15, 2011, 09:40:51 AM
i think natami inside this case can be pretty pretty :)
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Amiga1000.aspx

for my the best is a desktop case type A1200 or A600 inc. keyboard and of course, natami
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: nicholas on February 15, 2011, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: runequester;615675
yeah, its the same reason everybody got rid of their harleys and replaced them with korean scooters.



I wonder how often he upgrades to a new wife? ;)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: yssing on February 15, 2011, 12:11:24 PM
I hope people will realize that speed != GHz
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Hattig on February 15, 2011, 12:28:38 PM
Smerf, these FPGA Amiga implementations are clearly not for you. Can you stop rehashing these ancient arguments again in every thread. This isn't about creating a 2011 level computer to compete with a modern Mac or PC. There's the X1000 or Sam460 for that.

It's about creating a faster classic Amiga for those of us that happen to like the old classic Amiga, but want a bit more. NatAmi has said quite clearly that they're trying to create a hypothetical "late 90s" Amiga, with faster classic Amiga hardware rather than generic modern hardware (nice as it is). Those of us with classic computers as a hobby get quite excited at the thought, and as it's a hobby and our money to spend as we like, we don't care that it costs a lot - anything electronic custom-made in limited quantities will cost a lot!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: DCAmiga on February 15, 2011, 01:04:16 PM
@ Smerf
 
Yes, I probably would and why you ask ... well its simple, It is the most advanced 68K Amiga we can buy and you could plug your 4000 HD into the Natami (Via the IDE Connector) and it will work, only it will be a much more powerful machine. Natami's intentions are to be able to playback DivX, Xvid and DVD and provide enough resources and power to surf the internet and watch online videos.
Yes it will NOT compare to our Ghz Monster PC clones we all use today (except Franko ;)). Natami team say it will be just a good or better then a PS2 (PS2 games are still being sold atm) and just think of how many Millions (maybe billions) of dollars have been spent in R & D to get the PC where it is today. The Natami Team are regular people with regular jobs and family commitments this project is done in their spare time and using their own money for R & D. (And they havent asked anyone for funding)
So I see projects like Natami and FPGA Replay as a big step forward for Amiga and the community and as I mentioned I cant wait to see some Benchmarks. I also noticed a few people talk about speed, well I can only make refences to what i have read... Here is something I found interesting, as FPGA's come down in price more speed options will be available futher down the track.
 
Posted: July 29, 2010 by Gunner von Boehn
 
What ballpark 68K Softcore clockrate can you get?
60 nm class - 100 MHz
40 nm class - 150 MHz
28 nm class - 200 MHz (estimate)
20 nm class - 250 MHz (estimate)
 
How does the Softcore performance translates to a real 68030 in Sysinfo?
60 nm class - 600 MHz
40 nm class - 1000 MHz
28 nm class - 1300 MHz (estimate)
20 nm class - 1500 MHz (estimate)
What memory performance can you get with such an FPGA?
60 nm class - 1000 MB/sec
40 nm class - 1500 MB/sec
28 nm class - more
20 nm class - even more
 
 
For comparison:
A 4000/040 ran at 25Mhz and reaches in the order of 30MB/sec memory throughput.
A overclocked AMIGA 68060 TurboCard runs at up to 80Mhz and reaches in the order of 80MB/sec memory throughput. Compared to these AMIGAs the Softcore will give a big performance boost!
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=23738&order=&x=2 (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=23738&order=&x=2)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Khephren on February 15, 2011, 01:08:40 PM
Quote from: Hattig;615701
and as it's a hobby and our money to spend as we like, we don't care that it costs a lot - anything electronic custom-made in limited quantities will cost a lot!

Well, I care little bit  about cost :)  But I can't see it costing more than doing this (well, hoping):

towering my A1200 to allow 24bit graphics card
adding a 24bit graphics card
Adding a 3D accelerator
Adding USB
Adding a 16bit soundcard
Adding a 060 accelerator

Which are things I would like my Amiga to do. But it would end up just as bulky as my A4000T, and probably stuck together with gaffer tape. And I suppose a lot of the bits would be second hand, along with the A1200 itself.

However, if flogging my A4000T/040/PIV would cover most of the cost, I think i'd probably do it. does that make me a bad person ;)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: salax54 on February 15, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Quote from: persia;615635
It could easily fit inside one of these:
 
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Power_mac_g4_cube.png)

I seriously doubt that...  :(
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 15, 2011, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: Retro_71;615386
Also to all the people who said Vapour ware.... :p :p :p :p :p :p :p


While I applaud this effort and the progress it has reached this far (and thinks the pictures of the PCB are really cool), I'd still humbly want to point out that it still is just as unreleased as, for example, the Pios One, BoXeR and Dragon:

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/pios/pios1mb.jpg

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer3.jpg

http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01915.JPG
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01922.JPG

It still has some way to go, and from history we have learned that this is where many projects fail. Not that I think they will fail, but the "product" still isn't a *product*. So it's still vapor! :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: vidarh on February 15, 2011, 02:12:46 PM
Quote from: salax54;615710
I seriously doubt that...  :(


Why do you doubt that?

Stated measurements is 170mm x 140mm for the board. The cube is 248×195×195 mm excluding the acrylic shell.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Khephren on February 15, 2011, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;615713
While I applaud this effort and the progress it has reached this far (and thinks the pictures of the PCB are really cool), I'd still humbly want to point out that it still is just as unreleased as, for example, the Pios One, BoXeR and Dragon:


too late for me, save yourself!, i've already flicked the excitement switch to the on position!
(granted I got caught out with the AGA, walker and boxer)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 15, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Well, Commodore USA hasn't shipped anything either but that hasn't stopped you guys from making endless threads with your cheerleading in it?.

Just saying......



Quote from: takemehomegrandma;615713
While I applaud this effort and the progress it has reached this far (and thinks the pictures of the PCB are really cool), I'd still humbly want to point out that it still is just as unreleased as, for example, the Pios One, BoXeR and Dragon:

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/pios/pios1mb.jpg

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer3.jpg

http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01915.JPG
http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2k6/DSC01922.JPG

It still has some way to go, and from history we have learned that this is where many projects fail. Not that I think they will fail, but the "product" still isn't a *product*. So it's still vapor! :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Louis Dias on February 15, 2011, 05:21:36 PM
Boy I hate to say "I told you so!"  Well, not really.  I told you so!

Thomas Hirsch has made it known that alot of the lessons learned in "bring up" work done on the LX board will carry over onto this board.  Hence it should be "brought up" faster to where the LX is/was.
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=33366&x=2&z=DvlYVD

The battle is downhill now...not uphill.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: cicero790 on February 15, 2011, 05:25:30 PM
Great work. Hope to see some vids.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: espskog on February 15, 2011, 06:01:48 PM
Now, I am really keen on hearing what the pros and cons for NatAmi vs. FPGA Replay are. Very cool to see another project seeing the light of day.  Even though I am going for the FPGA Replay board, it is always nice to see how they compare technically.

So, what are the main technical differences ?
Do they offer the same functionality ?
Are they meant to cover the same area of use ?
Price difference ?
Production difference ? (Handmade / Machine made)
What can A do that B does not ?


Regards,
Espen
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: persia on February 15, 2011, 06:01:52 PM
Quote from: salax54;615710
I seriously doubt that...  :(


I have a few of the cases sitting around, one's part of a project to stuff an Intel Mac Mini motherboard into it that I'm about half way done with.  If the price for Natami is affordable I just might create such a beast out of one of the others.  I'd change the Apple logo for it of course, probably replace it with a checkmark or perhaps the A.o logo ;)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: salax54 on February 15, 2011, 06:18:21 PM
Quote from: vidarh;615714
Why do you doubt that?
 
Stated measurements is 170mm x 140mm for the board. The cube is 248×195×195 mm excluding the acrylic shell.

I saw nowhere mention of it being inner dimensions for the cube, so i thought it was total; but anyway, consider the blank space between the plexiglass and the inner chassis, the chassis itself, the height of the whole chassis is around 2/3 of the total cube. Then, you have to figure the jacks for key/mouse, video etc. sticking out of the mobo. This would be a tremendous mod, one that would anyway involve unsoldering jacks from the mobo, and most likely drilling, cutting etc. on the cube itself...
This pic might give an idea of the situation:
 
(http://arstechnica.com/reviews/4q00/g4cube_cd/images/cube-core-lift-big.jpg)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 15, 2011, 06:21:13 PM
Quote from: spihunter;615733
Well, Commodore USA hasn't shipped anything either but that hasn't stopped you guys from making endless threads with your cheerleading in it?.

Just saying......

"You guys"?!

Hehe, look, the few people responsible for the flooding of Commodore USA threads are a handful of loud Hyperion supporters starting thread after thread about how much they don't want to see Commodore USA threads! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Look, someone made some statement like: "in your face, you people who thought this was vapor ware", and I simply responded that it still is! Because it is! And so is "x1000" BTW. And Clone-A. And..., and..., and...

Edit: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29050

Many are the Amiga related HW projects that was shelved after the first PCB's were made, but before real commercialization. *Most* projects in fact, much more than the few examples I showed pictures of above. Maybe it is because when you have your prototype ready, you have to start thinking about the economic reality. Commercial Viability, Risk Assessment, etc. Possibly this is a *much bigger challenge* than doing the engineering stuff, and that's why almost all projects fail in this stage. I'm not saying that the NatAmi will fail. I'm just saying it's way too soon to lift the "vapor" label from it. It has yet to face its biggest challenge...

That doesn't mean I don't like the project (I honestly do), so please quit the grumpy comments...
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Ral-Clan on February 15, 2011, 06:45:04 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;615748
"You guys"?!
Look, someone made some statement like: "in your face, you people who thought this was vapor ware", and I simply responded that it still is! Because it is! And so is "x1000" BTW. And Clone-A. And..., and..., and...

Many are the Amiga related HW projects that was shelved after the first PCB's were made, but before real commercialization. *Most* projects in fact, much more than the few examples I showed pictures of above. Maybe it is because when you have your prototype ready, you have to start thinking about the economic reality. Commercial Viability, Risk Assessment, etc. Possibly this is a *much bigger challenge* than doing the engineering stuff, and that's why almost all projects fail in this stage. I'm not saying that the NatAmi will fail. I'm just saying it's way too soon to lift the "vapor" label from it. It has yet to face its biggest challenge...

You have a very valid point and say more clearly what I mean at the beginning of this thread when I said "I won't count the chickens before they are hatched".  Although I really want this product to be released (probably more than any other in recent years) I'll still only believe it when I see the unboxing videos on YouTube or the first buy reports.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 15, 2011, 06:57:03 PM
You've got me wrong. I'm not being grumpy. I'm just saying that we are all well aware of how much vapor has come from Amiga projects from any stage of develpment. Look at Red's "Giant list of Amiga vapor thread"

I've never made any of those "in your face" comments and I'm not an OS4 user so I'm not sure why you seem to be linking me to any of that?

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;615748
"You guys"?!

Hehe, look, the few people responsible for the flooding of Commodore USA threads are a handful of loud Hyperion supporters starting thread after thread about how much they don't want to see Commodore USA threads! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Look, someone made some statement like: "in your face, you people who thought this was vapor ware", and I simply responded that it still is! Because it is! And so is "x1000" BTW. And Clone-A. And..., and..., and...

Edit: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29050

Many are the Amiga related HW projects that was shelved after the first PCB's were made, but before real commercialization. *Most* projects in fact, much more than the few examples I showed pictures of above. Maybe it is because when you have your prototype ready, you have to start thinking about the economic reality. Commercial Viability, Risk Assessment, etc. Possibly this is a *much bigger challenge* than doing the engineering stuff, and that's why almost all projects fail in this stage. I'm not saying that the NatAmi will fail. I'm just saying it's way too soon to lift the "vapor" label from it. It has yet to face its biggest challenge...

That doesn't mean I don't like the project (I honestly do), so please quit the grumpy comments...
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Franko on February 15, 2011, 08:19:14 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;615748
"You guys"?!

Hehe, look, the few people responsible for the flooding of Commodore USA threads are a handful of loud Hyperion supporters starting thread after thread about how much they don't want to see Commodore USA threads! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I was one of those who flooded the "those who shall not be named" threads but I don't give a frig about Hyperion either... :)

At least the NatAmi developers have shown us the actual hardware that they have created and not just some empty cases that "those who shall not be named" have displayed... :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: biggun on February 15, 2011, 10:03:36 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;615748

Many are the Amiga related HW projects that was shelved after the first PCB's were made, but before real commercialization. *Most* projects in fact, much more than the few examples I showed pictures of above. Maybe it is because when you have your prototype ready, you have to start thinking about the economic reality. Commercial Viability, Risk Assessment, etc.


Yes, but there was a major differance in those projects and the NATAMI.
Thomas does this whole project as his personal quest to revive the AMIGA -
The NATAMI project is not done to make any money.

All of the team know that we will not make any money on this.
But money is not our goal.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: nicholas on February 15, 2011, 10:41:16 PM
I wonder if either the MorphOS Team or Hyperion are going to backport their OS's to the Natami?

Whichever gets there first (AROS, MorphOS, Hyperion OS4) could become the new defacto standard for 68k Amiga OS. :D
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: amigadave on February 15, 2011, 11:46:29 PM
Quote from: nicholas;615804
I wonder if either the MorphOS Team or Hyperion are going to backport their OS's to the Natami?

Whichever gets there first (AROS, MorphOS, Hyperion OS4) could become the new defacto standard for 68k Amiga OS. :D

Since both OS4 and MorphOS are PPC only they will never be "back ported" to the Natami board.  AROS 68k is very probably though, but I think AmigaOS3.1 to 3.9 will be used by most people on the Natami when it is first released.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: nicholas on February 16, 2011, 12:51:34 AM
Quote from: amigadave;615830
Since both OS4 and MorphOS are PPC only they will never be "back ported" to the Natami board.  AROS 68k is very probably though, but I think AmigaOS3.1 to 3.9 will be used by most people on the Natami when it is first released.


Both OS4 and MorphOS are written mostly in C AFAIK.
The work required to port either to 68k would be considerably less than a port to x86.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2011, 03:22:05 AM
Could you lot stop quoting takemehomegrandma so much? He's on my ignore list for a reason, you're not helping! :laughing:

Would love to see a video of this Natami board actually running AmigaOS and demoing some applications, like Deluxe Paint for example. Oh, and next to the Amiga checkmark, the Natami logo is IMO the coolest one in the amigasphere :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Franko on February 16, 2011, 04:05:33 AM
Well I heard takemehomegrandma said this and that and something else as well... :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 16, 2011, 04:27:46 AM
Quote from: biggun;615789
Yes, but there was a major differance in those projects and the NATAMI.
Thomas does this whole project as his personal quest to revive the AMIGA -
The NATAMI project is not done to make any money.

All of the team know that we will not make any money on this.
But money is not our goal.


That's not what I'm saying. I fully understand that money isn't your motivator, but that doesn't take money out of the equation. Making a few prototypes can't be much of a problem, you could probably take some spare cash from your last monthly salary. Volume usually makes the per-unit price lower (which is of great interest to potential customers), but to produce a batch as low as 100 motherboards would require a considerable sum of cash up front, with many months until you have it back, with a substantial risk of not getting it back at all. Maybe you can do like Minimig, either offer a plain empty PCB with a Bill of Materials or hand it over to someone like Acube who might be willing to take the risk for you? They did that for the Minimig, remember? Just a thought.

Anyway, it's good to see the progress you are making, and I'm looking forward to see some videos of the thing running! If prices aren't too steep when it gets here, I'll probably buy one just of curiosity! It's a real cool procejt! :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 16, 2011, 04:47:34 AM
Quote from: kolla;615854
Could you lot stop quoting takemehomegrandma so much? He's on my ignore list for a reason, you're not helping! :laughing:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well some time ago I for a moment was playing with the thought of putting you kolla on that list, but I didn't. Not because your contributions to threads any valuable at all, they are mostly vitriol about this and that and just about anything.

But in a general way of speaking, I would honestly feel crippled knowing that there are discussions going, things said, news spread, etc which I haven't got a clue of, or that I might miss out on big chunks of the discussions that *I am part* of.

So since the concept of ignore lists isn't really working for me, I have decided that kolla is put on my "mental" ignore list instead. I am a grown up, I can usually handle kolla's vitriol, and when I can't I simply scroll past them quickly!

(http://www.amiga.org/forums/images/smilies/laughing.gif)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Retro_71 on February 16, 2011, 05:25:08 AM
I was the one that said the comment about Vaporware and yes i know that they need to produce boards but considering people thought (and prob still do) that they would never even get to this stage because of feature creep or it was going to be difficult, (i have been watching Natami for years now so i remember all the crap people said about them....) so for them to come up with the bring up board which means its almost ready is great.
SO again i say to all those people :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: vidarh on February 16, 2011, 09:29:00 AM
Quote from: salax54;615747
I saw nowhere mention of it being inner dimensions for the cube, so i thought it was total; but anyway, consider the blank space between the plexiglass and the inner chassis, the chassis itself, the height of the whole chassis is around 2/3 of the total cube.


The dimensions I posted are the inner  chassis.

And yes, you would need to make changes - the easiest would probably be to cut out the part of the backplate with the connectors, rip out everything inside, and cut a new backplate to fit the Natami + some extension cables. Not a huge deal. The main thing is the Natami board is small enough to fit with a good margin.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: vidarh on February 16, 2011, 09:47:47 AM
Quote from: espskog;615742

So, what are the main technical differences ?
Do they offer the same functionality ?
Are they meant to cover the same area of use ?
Price difference ?
Production difference ? (Handmade / Machine made)
What can A do that B does not ?


They're very different:

FPGA Arcade will offer 68030 to 68040 level performance depending how much performance they manage to squeeze out of the TG68 core. Not sure about the softcore performance on the Natami, but the (optional) CPU boards are 133MHz 68060's and I believe their aiming for higher performance with the softcore when its ready/integrated (better/wider memory interface, more work per clock etc.). The Natami also seems to have a far faster memory interface that'll completely crush any classic and leave the FPGA Arcade in the dust too if they manage to make full use of it.

Functionality wise, they're similar though there are lots of small differences other than that the Natami has lots more memory (512MB on the board vs. 64MB I think for the FPGA Arcade), "SuperAGA" - lots of new screen modes, massively faster blitter etc. and they're talking about other enhancements such as extra coppers etc., while FPGA Arcade is AGA with possibly some smaller extensions (higher resolution, chunky modes etc. - whatever yaqcube manages to squeeze into the smaller FPGA).

FPGA Arcade isn't Amiga specific, though - there'll be C64 cores, Atari cores and a bunch of others, while the Natami is aimed squarely at being a modernized Amiga.

Price estimates of the FPGA Arcade is in the 200 euro range (+/-), while I don't know the price the Natami will end up at (they don't know for sure either, though I'm sure they have a better idea than me, but they're holding off on announcing a price until they know spot prices for the components when ordering). I'd be surprised if it ends up lower than the 600 euro range, though, given the complexity and the size/cost of the FPGA's chosen etc.

Basically, I'd consider FPGA Arcade as a heavily upgraded Minimig replacement that could also likely take the place of a not-that-heavily-expanded A1200 level machine + offer ability to use with other cores, while the Natami is offering performance and features beyond most heavily expanded classics with the exception of lack of PPC expansions (so far anyway - it has the expansion slot they use for the current 68060 boards).
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Gryfon on February 16, 2011, 12:08:28 PM
As a long-time fan and Amiga.org lurker, I've been watching the Natami project with great interest. If this lands I'm definitely laying down cash on one.  I'm looking forward to getting 3.9 on it and all the setup & config stuff - always was a pleasure to do on an Amiga.

Big thanks to the Natami Team for your efforts and I wish you all well!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Crom00 on February 16, 2011, 01:06:11 PM
I love it when homebrew projects achieve a level of completion heads ABOVE ANYTHING ever produced by the IP holders. YUM YUM GIMME SOME! Will get this once it's available. How many of us here want a CLASSIC OS machine on steroids the 060 machine that was too expensive? AGA was cool but it needed a bit more oommmpphh... the A4000 needed an audio DSP well now we have it.

This is the Amiga that should have been released in 1993.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 16, 2011, 01:56:23 PM
And that folks is why this project will see the light of day. I think the Amiga curse will finally go away when the platform is totally in the hands of the hobbiest. Things only go wrong when someone steps in and thinks their going to make a buck on this small community.......



Quote from: biggun;615789
Yes, but there was a major differance in those projects and the NATAMI.
Thomas does this whole project as his personal quest to revive the AMIGA -
The NATAMI project is not done to make any money.

All of the team know that we will not make any money on this.
But money is not our goal.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: spihunter on February 16, 2011, 01:58:01 PM
+100.

 That's what I've done in the past and it always worked out for me!. Sorry, I slipped up on this one. :)



Quote from: kolla;615854
Could you lot stop quoting takemehomegrandma so much? He's on my ignore list for a reason, you're not helping! :laughing:
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Louis Dias on February 16, 2011, 02:41:44 PM
Quote from: Gryfon;615890
As a long-time fan and Amiga.org lurker, I've been watching the Natami project with great interest. If this lands I'm definitely laying down cash on one.  I'm looking forward to getting 3.9 on it and all the setup & config stuff - always was a pleasure to do on an Amiga.

Big thanks to the Natami Team for your efforts and I wish you all well!


I think there's alot more people out there like you.  I think many people underestimate this.  For instance, SAM440__ obviously sold quite a few batches yet the people who actually post on the forums as owners is much lower.

Most people who do post are the jilted vocal minority.

My other hobby's forum(car) has 10+k members but only a hundred post regularly.  The rest only post when they need "help".

Everyone underestimates this.
Natami is going to be an eye-opener.  I believe they will sell enough to fund Natami2.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: ChaosLord on February 16, 2011, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;615914
Everyone underestimates this.
Not me :)
I have always understood that and attempted to explain it to ppl many times.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: trekiej on February 17, 2011, 04:28:01 AM
It seems to me that the real deal is the code in the FPGA. Making the board is important but others have made boards too.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Crom00 on February 17, 2011, 06:26:57 AM
No army can stop an idea whose time has come!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Gryfon on February 17, 2011, 04:58:44 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;615914
I think there's alot more people out there like you.QUOTE]

I admit I visit amiga.org / amigaworld.net and a few other sites every day.  I just usually don't feel the urge to chime in.

But cut me in half and you'll find a boing ball pattern running through ;-)

One could easily describe my relationship with my A1200 and all-things-Amiga as "obsessive".  I worked in a Game store (computer games chain in the UK) whilst at university 1997 - 1998, just as the last few commercial games were trickling out (think "Worms: Directors Cut" / "Sensible World of Soccer 1997") and would preach "Amiga" to all who would listen.

My A1200 has been in the attic for a few years now, IIRC it died circa 2001.  However my monstrously powerful PC allows me to run WinUAE with ease and I keep my Amiga Forever up to date whenever I can afford it.

Would much rather be running a hardware solution though.  Modern apps, like an up-to-date featured web browser I consider as "nice to haves", but I regard "running stuff as I did years ago" (games / productivity / programming) and simply the joy of messing about within such a tolerant and customisable solution as, to me, a much higher priority.

I believe Natami will answer that need.  I await the final boards with great interest.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: skipp604 on February 18, 2011, 10:31:09 AM
Natami is going to be my new Amiga, definitely. Can't wait to buy one!
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Lurch on February 19, 2011, 08:37:04 AM
Natami, it's been awhile since I've been excited about computer hardware. I recently purchase an Amiga 500 and bought a couple of things for it, even looked at getting a minimig but I think my next purchase will be a Natami.

I've actually been following this since they first announced it, and have been lurking on amiga.org for quite sometime.

I know what I want for Christmas this year, exciting times.
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: slaapliedje on March 07, 2011, 12:10:36 PM
I'm definitely going to budget out some cash for this.  Been excited about it since I read about it.  Natami is definitely where the Amiga should have gone.  The only other logical course for me has been to go with Coldfire, but I've already read why that's not going to work.

slaapliedje
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: Puni/Void on May 01, 2011, 07:21:32 AM
I'm looking forward to the Natami. Can't wait. :)
Title: Re: First Natami MX boards produced
Post by: brownb2 on May 02, 2011, 10:22:53 AM
When this is released we might witness the market dropping out for A4000 machines and PPC/fast accelerators, although I still see accelerators going for ridiculous money despite faster new ones being on Amiga Kit, there is the occasional blip showing more realistic prices (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160577633073&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)...