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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: asian1 on October 27, 2002, 12:53:44 PM
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Hi
Thendic had announced possibillity of using IBM PowerPC 970 in the next generation of Pegasos board (MorphOS-News).
Apple plan to use Motorola G5 (Register).
Any news / announcement about the possible CPU for the future Eyetech / Amiga Inc boards?
From MorphOS-News:
"Concerning the new PowerPC970: today it is not possible to use this CPU with the Pegasos; however in the future it will be. We do not have a sample yet!
We cannot offer it to you until IBM releases the product commercially. We have a close relationship with IBM (and Motorola) and we do get samples of new chips to test them well ahead of product releases, but we do not have samples of this CPU yet. It should not be too much trouble for us to gets this running. The engineering that supports a product like this is at the highest professional level and the documentation is very good making our job much easier."
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Will Apple use them ? Allmost certainly !!
Will bPlan or MAI use them ? Learn to walk or crawl before
you start on the marathon.
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asian1 wrote:
Any news / announcement about the possible CPU for the future Eyetech / Amiga Inc boards?
Eyetech don't design hardware, not anything remotely approaching the complexity of a mobo/computer or related to the Terons/"AmigaOnes" anyway. Amiga Inc. has nothing at all to do with hardware.
AmigaOS will only get whatever Eyetech (or some hypothetical and improbable other new licensee) can redistribute. Even if there were personal computers with PPC970s today (instead of maybe a year from now), they'd be out of reach for AmigaOS until someone could/would license them and redistribute them with AOS and some hardware-license verification mechanism. Then porting AOS to them could start. And after that we'd only be allowed to buy them via this hypothetical licensed distributor.
Bill Buck babbling about using the 970 "with the Pegasos" in the future is nonsense. It would naturally require a completely new board design, or it'd be a waste of a perfectly fine CPU. Maybe he's referring to "Pegasos" as a complete product line.
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Forget anything Thendic says about hardware development on a CPU that's not gonna be out for another year.
The chance of the PPC970 being a success in a Pegasos or an A1-XE is about as likely as an IA-64 working in a Pentium 2 motherboard. Oh, that's right. It doesn't.
64 bit CPU with an FSB of 900MHz should really not be used with a northbridge of 133MHz/32 bit. You would end up putting all your memory and at least the AGP on the CPU card (AGP uses DMA to system memory, and since the memory is on the wrong side of the northbridge... Move it, or end up with chip ram/fast ram all over again.)
This discussion is fruitless. Existing chipsets will handle the G3 and G4 processors quite nicely. If upgraded to the Articia Sa, both these computer series could use 166MHz FSB also (available on the 750FX and the 7450?). But to use any 64 bit daughter cards wouldn't be that useful.
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@olegil
Good points but I would also add that the uses of a 64bit CPU are limited especially when dealing with all our legacy titles. If anything it will run 32bit software slower than a comparable 32bit processor.
64bit gives you what, memory addressing over 4Gigabytes? Is this useful? On the other hand AltiVec has a lot of applications especially in multimedia, encryption, networking, encoding, and compressing. None of these things are improved with a 64bit CPU.
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Apple is goign Itanium True 64bit and much faster.What the Hombre was goign to use the Parisc. :-D
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strobe wrote:
@olegil
Good points but I would also add that the uses of a 64bit CPU are limited especially when dealing with all our legacy titles. If anything it will run 32bit software slower than a comparable 32bit processor.
64bit gives you what, memory addressing over 4Gigabytes? Is this useful? On the other hand AltiVec has a lot of applications especially in multimedia, encryption, networking, encoding, and compressing. None of these things are improved with a 64bit CPU.
I'd put a lot of money on the fact that the PPC970 will run 32 bit PPC software a lot faster than any PPC CPU today, not because it is 64bit, but because it is a much faster and more powerful CPU. You will most likely find that it runs 64 bit software SLOWER than 32 bit software, most likely about 5% slower (quoted form some CPU designer guy).
The point is who cares, 64 bit is a nice buzzword that gets people to buy stuff (presumably thinking 64 bit=twice as fast as 32 bit)
A 64 bit CPU has nothing to do with memory = thats the memory interface that deals with that. Remember the EC020 that came with the A1200? That was a 32 bit CPU with 24 bit adressing so it could address 2^24 = 167777216bytes or 16 MB of RAM. If you want to just talk bits, then bare in mind that the Pentium4 has some internal parts that run at 256 Bit and I believe the AthlonXP in parts runs at 512. A 64 bit CPu in this sense deals with accuracy - it can deal with 2^32 (ie 4 billion) times the number of integers of a 32 bit CPU.
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nope they are not,
get your facts straight.
:quickdraw:
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Minion traditionally a cpu's 'bittage' has been deemed by its ALU and when they say 'its 64bit' they mean ALU...wich would allow for apps to be allocated more then 2gb of memory.......
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Poxy 2 gb barrier :-?
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But you only need 640K at most... :-P
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Why worry about PPC 970 now. First Pegasos or Amigaone has to be a
success for their to be any further developement of either range.
However, I don't see Eyetech at any disadvantage to Thendic/Bplan.
Eyetech have a partnership with Mai Logic to supply Teron range to
industrial clients as well as Amiga users. If Eyetech's sales are
healthy the then Mai will be prepared to develope newer chipsets and
boards.
You really should read the Article on Mai's site. It is really is
something positive amongst all the current gloom and doom.
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as far as the "bit-ness" of ppc970 , I'd recommend reading;
http://arstechnica.com/archive/newspro/news-archive-10-2002.html
re: why worry about ppc970......aros maybe, maybe macos X, other things non-amiga..et al
64bits not useful for you....well maybe not *now* but possibly for someone sometime in the near future
(if you build it, they will come....)
Might as well have *more* than necessary instead of less
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I would not be too interested in seeing PPC970 (900Mhz front side bus) on a motherboard with 133Mhz memory bus...
If the CPU card would be build with some 900Mhz onboard memory, then the performance would be decent, but then the price of such a CPU card would be around new PowerMac...
Better just design a completely new motherboard ... in 2005 or so....
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@strobe
"If anything it will run 32bit software slower than a comparable 32bit processor."
That might be true with some of the 64 bit variants of future x86 CPUs where there might be no full backwards compatibility. But PowerPC has been designed to be 64bit in the very beginning, so I would not expect any slowdowns with 32bit code.
( Hyperion guys at OS4 list about 64bit PPC. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmigaOS4/message/2628)
"64 bit PowerPC architectures *can* run their 32 bit subset code with no
speed penality (as opposed to IA-64), and only marginal changes in the
OS code and no changes in user code needs to be done to achieve this.")
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of motherboard interests;....
here's something IBM emailed me today.
IBM Cu-11 Voltage Islands:
This presentation will provide an overview of voltage islands, a new capability first being made available in IBM Cu-11 ASICs. The capability allows groups of internal circuits, called islands, to be operated at different voltages or even powered down.
Plus they go on about APIs for PCI-X
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this is not new, IBM as talked about that for quite some time and motorola have had it implemented in
some of it's cpu's.
I wonder when IBM will relese their optical CPU or
the 'startrek' CPU :-D
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mips_proc wrote:
Minion traditionally a cpu's 'bittage' has been deemed by its ALU and when they say 'its 64bit' they mean ALU...wich would allow for apps to be allocated more then 2gb of memory.......
ALU=Arithmatic Logic Unit i.e. the bit that does the calculations. It has nothing to do with the memory(addressing) interface.
This means you could have a 64 bit processor that can only adress 4GB of memory if it has a 32 bit memory(address)interface. You can also have a 32 Bit processor that can address 16 exabytes of memory if it has a 64 bit memory(address) interface.
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@minion
Well with PPC it has. As there are no special
address-registers, but just general purpose
registers. You use the ALU to compute
adrresses with theese regs, in this case
64 bit regs. So its 64bit integer math/logic/addressing. The FPU is already 64bit
in the 32bit PowerPCs. And the Altivec is 128bit.
The differences should be zero, compared to
32bit cpus. Unless you do math on 64 bit integers.
@all
And when we are at Altivec:
Altivec is vector processing.
Theese vectors (always 128bit,16bytes)
may containg either 8bit/16bit/32bit integer or 32bit float values. You can fit 4 32bit values in one vector.
People seem to think its just about floats regarding
Altivec, but it handles integers just as well.
Altivec adds 160+ new instructions to the original instructionset of 220+.
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blubbe wrote:
@minion
Well with PPC it has. As there are no special
address-registers, but just general purpose
registers. You use the ALU to compute
adrresses with theese regs, in this case
64 bit regs. So its 64bit integer math/logic/addressing. The FPU is already 64bit
in the 32bit PowerPCs. And the Altivec is 128bit.
The differences should be zero, compared to
32bit cpus. Unless you do math on 64 bit integers.
You missed my point. Ignoring the 64/32 Bit thing the PPC970 should be a lot faster than a G4 for example because the CPU itself is a lot faster, 64 or 32 bit. I.e. if it wasn't 64 bit capable, then then it would still be faster then other PPC CPU's (baring in mind it will run at 1.8 GHz and is a lot "wider"( not in terms of bits, but execution units etc) than say a G3 or G4. i.e. clock for clock it is faster and as an added bonus it runs faster.
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You missed my point. Ignoring the 64/32 Bit thing the PPC970 should be a lot faster than a G4 for example because the CPU itself is a lot faster, 64 or 32 bit. I.e. if it wasn't 64 bit capable, then then it would still be faster then other PPC CPU's (baring in mind it will run at 1.8 GHz and is a lot "wider"( not in terms of bits, but execution units etc) than say a G3 or G4. i.e. clock for clock it is faster and as an added bonus it runs faster.
I hear you, and I agree. It will be faster, but not
much because its 64bit. The new memory-interface
sounds quite interesting, and should boost performance alot too.
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@self (yeah why not)
when we are at Altivec..... then we are usu. on G4
when we are at PPC970....then we are usu. on VMX
just to be nitpicky
how does an SMP setup compare I wonder ...theoretically anyway Head2Head
2 x (32 bit anything) with 2 x (PPC970@1.8ghz)
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The IBM 970 has a completely different FSB to the one in use by the G3 and G4. It will require a new motherboard and chipset to make use of it effectively.
I imagine that it would be possible to make a CPU card that had on it the processor, a northbridge, fast DDR memory interface, and then logic to interconnect with an existing Artica S northbridge using the old G3/G4 processor bus. Of course then you would have an ultra modern CPU stuck on a motherboard with features 2 years old.
I imagine that IBM will be making a supporting chipset to go with the processor at the very least, hopefully supporting multiple 970 CPUs (I believe the 970 can scale to 16 CPU's in a system), supporting fast DDR / DDRII memory, and connecting to a modern and upto date southbridge featuring USB2, Firewire, NIC, SATA-150, etc.
I think that Thendic are using Pegasos as a brand name for their product range, not just to refer to the current motherboard.
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>16 CPU PPC970
I hope this machine can be partitioned, similar to IBM 16 CPU Pentium Xeon machine. The Partitioned machine can run several different OS on separate CPU at the same time.
PPC970 is 64 Bit PowerPC and I hope Amiga Inc can reach an agreement with IBM on porting AIX to the future Amiga motherboard (similar to Bull agreement).
There are several serious applications for AIX OS such as RDBMS, HRD, Accounting, Back Office etc.
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Minion wrote:
strobe wrote:
@olegil
Good points but I would also add that the uses of a 64bit CPU are limited especially when dealing with all our legacy titles. If anything it will run 32bit software slower than a comparable 32bit processor.
64bit gives you what, memory addressing over 4Gigabytes? Is this useful? On the other hand AltiVec has a lot of applications especially in multimedia, encryption, networking, encoding, and compressing. None of these things are improved with a 64bit CPU.
I'd put a lot of money on the fact that the PPC970 will run 32 bit PPC software a lot faster than any PPC CPU today, not because it is 64bit, but because it is a much faster and more powerful CPU. You will most likely find that it runs 64 bit software SLOWER than 32 bit software, most likely about 5% slower (quoted form some CPU designer guy).
The point is who cares, 64 bit is a nice buzzword that gets people to buy stuff (presumably thinking 64 bit=twice as fast as 32 bit)
A 64 bit CPU has nothing to do with memory = thats the memory interface that deals with that. Remember the EC020 that came with the A1200? That was a 32 bit CPU with 24 bit adressing so it could address 2^24 = 167777216bytes or 16 MB of RAM. If you want to just talk bits, then bare in mind that the Pentium4 has some internal parts that run at 256 Bit and I believe the AthlonXP in parts runs at 512. A 64 bit CPu in this sense deals with accuracy - it can deal with 2^32 (ie 4 billion) times the number of integers of a 32 bit CPU.
wrong wrogn wrong
ever seen wintrek run on a 486 from win 95 it was made for win 3.11 . It ran so dam fast I couldnt play it . Data will be goign in so to dam fast on the Hombre clone. Add to the fact that you have 8 cpus cores on each chip. ther is speed. Its evdent in all the othergames that you play like the earleir A500 games on a a4000 oh yeah im sure it goersslower on an A4000 sure whatever.
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And the Altivec is 128bit.
wrong wrong wrong
dam emmulated dam guys you admit one thing then not another double stnadard here. Im suprisde you dont call the G4 a 128bit.
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THEONE wrote:
Lots of crap
You're as thick as two short planks, aren't you. You just dont get it. :-? :-? :-?
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Minion wrote:
THEONE wrote:
Lots of crap
You're as thick as two short planks, aren't you. You just dont get it. :-? :-? :-?
nope you dont get it you dont have the #### that god gave a snake for brains. ppc is dead so who cares . motorola deosnt ,Ibm doesnt,and Mac doesnt. itanium is where everyone is going. And what I explained is the way you guys think . Besides if you are lookig for speed then dammit man look at the itanium. its been in the advance server area fro a while. soon to be cheap enough for end users. Its goign to hit the streets at 6ghz real-time. oh thisChrismas or by the end of feburary . MERRY CHRISTMAS :-D
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nope you dont get it you dont have the #### that god gave a snake for brains. ppc is dead so who cares . motorola deosnt ,Ibm doesnt,and Mac doesnt.
Yeah we've heard that conspiracy theory before! PPC is far from dead!!
itanium is where everyone is going. And what I explained is the way you guys think . Besides if you are lookig for speed then dammit man look at the itanium. its been in the advance server area fro a while. soon to be cheap enough for end users. Its goign to hit the streets at 6ghz real-time. oh thisChrismas or by the end of feburary . MERRY CHRISTMAS
Ah the Itanic... the chip that can't get out of its own way (much less anything else)! You need to get with the facts, that Itanic isn't going to reach 6 GHz anytime soon, but hey at least you're overly optimistic :-P
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Thats it im goign to get that coleco adam and have the best computer around . SO STICK THAT IN YOU PIPE AND SMOKE IT.
:-P :-D :-) :roll: :lol: :idea: :roflmao: :python:
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AmigaMac wrote:
nope you dont get it you dont have the #### that god gave a snake for brains. ppc is dead so who cares . motorola deosnt ,Ibm doesnt,and Mac doesnt.
Yeah we've heard that conspiracy theory before! PPC is far from dead!!
itanium is where everyone is going. And what I explained is the way you guys think . Besides if you are lookig for speed then dammit man look at the itanium. its been in the advance server area fro a while. soon to be cheap enough for end users. Its goign to hit the streets at 6ghz real-time. oh thisChrismas or by the end of feburary . MERRY CHRISTMAS
Ah the Itanic... the chip that can't get out of its own way (much less anything else)! You need to get with the facts, that Itanic isn't going to reach 6 GHz anytime soon, but hey at least you're overly optimistic :-P
i called hp and ibm and redhat to confirm all this just today and yesterday . Go by intels website or go onto a website if you dont belive me.
glad your in good cheer
we must move on to a better cpu PARIC=ITANIUM
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THEONE wrote:
AmigaMac wrote:
Yeah we've heard that conspiracy theory before! PPC is far from dead!!
itanium is where everyone is going. And what I explained is the way you guys think . Besides if you are lookig for speed then dammit man look at the itanium. its been in the advance server area fro a while. soon to be cheap enough for end users. Its goign to hit the streets at 6ghz real-time. oh thisChrismas or by the end of feburary . MERRY CHRISTMAS
Ah the Itanic... the chip that can't get out of its own way (much less anything else)! You need to get with the facts, that Itanic isn't going to reach 6 GHz anytime soon, but hey at least you're overly optimistic :-P
i called hp and ibm and redhat to confirm all this just today and yesterday . Go by intels website or go onto a website if you dont belive me.
glad your in good cheer
we must move on to a better cpu PARIC=ITANIUM
The absolute perfect signature of a compulsive liar. To anyone who has met a compulsive liar, that crap that you just typed is obviously complete bullsh*t.
Typical compulsive liar senario:
CL=compulsive liar
NP=normal person
CL "Some ridiculous made up statement to sound impressive"
NP "Thats not true"
CL "More made up facts to support the original made up statement"
This maps on to your conversation as follows:
TO=Fantasy world boy THEONE
AM=Amigamac
TO="Itanium wil reach 6 Ghz by this christmas or February"
AM="No way"
TO="I just called all of these people that are experts and they agree with me"
You didn't call those people didn't you? They are just your made up sources to support your made up statement.
Your kind allways get found out sooner or later for the liars that you are. Every compulsive liar that I have known believes he had friends, but everybody really hated them. When they weren't there, most of the conversation involved taking the mickey out of them.
Dont you notice how your "friends" seem to ignore you a lot more than anyone else? Notice how that almost always have excuses not to hang out with you, or do you a favour? You do know that the only times that your friends do talk to you is when they cant get away from you, dont you. Or maybe they weren't quick enough to think of a reason that they need to go.
I suggest that you watch the behaviour of your "friends" and see how accurate this picture is.
You'll be surprised.
Have a nice day :-)
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Could someone give an (relatively unbiased) explanation as to what this Itanium / Hombre business is really about? What are they?
THEONE (Is that Shawn?) has been talking about it for so long now...
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SlimJim
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SlimJim,
I have to say that your avatar freaks me out everytime I see it... is that intentional? :-D
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I suppose Apple will be the only one to use the G5 and Amiga users once again be left out. forever. :-(
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I drew it myself.
Never seen a dragon before? :-D
I have received a lot of questions about this avatar.
It's from this hobby project of mine, to create a physiologically "realistic" dragon fitting most of the
legends. I have a full biological history of the Dracocephalum Elementalis Rex, commonly known
as The Great Dragon, including a full internal/external anatomy.
(Better apply that physics/mathematics education on something useful, right?)
There is a lot of inconsistency in dragon-lore I can tell you. It's not easy to explain the physics of a eight-tonne creature being able to fly..
.
SlimJim
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I suppose Apple will be the only one to use the G5 and Amiga users once again be left out. forever.
powerpufffan,
To be honest, I don't have much faith on the G5, so I wouldn't sweat it. I'm not saying it will never exist, since they already have pretty much established a product line for the little host CPUs of the same gender, but there are rumors circulating on some kind of G4+ to add much needed enhancements, I guess we'll find out soon enough :-?
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Whether or not the G5 exists is not the problem. The problem is Apple may snatck what is left of the chips so the only high-end chips will be in your mac.
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Whether or not the G5 exists is not the problem. The problem is Apple may snatck what is left of the chips so the only high-end chips will be in your mac.
I don't know... if I was Eyetech and Thendic, I would concentrate PowerPC efforts with IBM! They seem more focused on delivering desktop solutions than Motorola and they have a new Fab plant to help deliver on that focus!