Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: DeQuevedo on June 19, 2004, 01:10:50 PM
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Hi Dudes
Well, the Pre-release CD of Amiga OS4, is out.
That, simply, means the a CD booteable on amiga one of the Os4 revision of the OS.
Elbox have been claimming by years that the production of shark will start when the OS4 for AMIGAONE hits the streets.
The moment finally arrived. Since elbox claimed the Shark to be FULL capable of running the very same version of Os4 than Amiga One... where are the sharks? Where are the shots of the hardware running?
Best Regards
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Elbox have been claiming by years that the production of shark will start when the OS4 for AMIGAONE hits the streets.
Well, it's a pre release or developers release only so Elbox can still hang on to that.. Tho I don't believe the shark will come out when os 4.9 hits the streets..
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Yeah its this what led me to my very first post here.
(about when / if sharkppc will be supported).
Elbox have been very clever. They are waiting for the official release of Os4.0 + AmigaONE bundle. This is not a pre-rel but the actual (full) release.
Is that out yet?
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thats a bit anti shark.
I think it will, certainly before OS 4.9 :-)
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On that note which PPC accelerators will OS4.0 work on? I know accel. A1200 and A4000's were supposed to be supported.
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thats a bit anti shark.
Only a bit ? ;-)
I think it will, certainly before OS 4.9 :-)
Well, I do hope it does, but I really doubt it. Also the part that the Amiga One version (Or the cyberstorm version) will run on it without any work is really doubtfull.. As allways, lets wait and see..
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Er...not much choice in PPC cards, now is there. Only the Blizzard and the Cyberstorm (well and the CS dev boards..) and OS4 is already working on both (that is, early versions of OS4).
I want OS4 for Bliz now! :-x. Only reason I'm holding on to the A1200. It's currently gathering dust under my desk.
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On that note which PPC accelerators will OS4.0 work on?
At first only the CyberstormPPC (A3000/4000) and later the the BlizzardPPC (?) sollutions for the A1200..
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If Elbox holds out too much longer, their potential customers will either
buy AmigaOnes or if not already, leave the platform. I do not see the
logic anymore in Elbox holding out. Two years ago, yes this made sence,
but I have a funny feeling that the Shark will not run OS4 as planned.
Surely there is a prototype somewhere that can run a beta version of OS4,
especially since the official version is in the final moments before its release.
C Snyder
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I really hope Shark will be out for real, but, sadly, I doubt it in a seriously way. As a friend of mine says " Shark its only a way to sell more mediators"
If Shark do really exists, it wouldnt have problems to run Os prerelease, since elbox says its 100% One compatible, and hey, Prerelease already runs on amiga one!
I would like A LOT to put it into my 1200PPC mediator and keep it going as much time as possible. I love my 1200 too much.:-D If it ever get out, Im the veru first buying it :-)
Os4 actually runs fine on CSPPC (Amiga 3000, 4000 and 1200 with CPU slot adaptor -I Think-) and on BlizzardPPC on Amiga 1200.
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@C Snyder
A proto running? Where have you seen that!?
If I were elbox I will take a shots runnign Os4 prerelease or what ever, to say the amigans "Hey, Were here"
And yes,many of the amigans left, have bought a Pegasos/One, but many more, as me, wants to keep his amiga classic and get it with probably the last turboboard ever.
AmigaOne is cool, and pegasos, sure, but thery are not amiga, annyway not amiga in the same way as classic are, from my point of view. There was too much years with my 1200 and I want to keep it going :)
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To me it seems like Elbox is cornered.
There are no new classic Amiga systems being made, and old Amigas are dying at alarming rate. Most of the classic users have already bought the PCI solution, the market is saturated. No new PCI bridge can offer such new features it would trigger new purchases (few more PCI slots doesn't quite make it).
Further Elbox has claimed OS4 upgrade path thru Mediator with SharkPPC. The solution has never been seen actually running anything. Personally I think this was just a tactic to secure more Mediator sales. I predict Shark will never really appear, possibly Elbox blaming AmigaInc(KMOS?)/Hyperion for non-co-operation.
Not to mention the fact Poland is now part of EU, and such Elbox must now follow the EU regulations. Pulling another illegal stunt like the "RDB-trashing protection" will not be possible without consequences.
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@DeQuevedo
I didn't say that I have seen one running. Let me clarify my statement.
If the Shark will run OS4 and its production is only being held back
until OS4 is released, then surely Elbox has a prototype that they can
demo to show that this is not vaporware. Since elbox has not done this
I can only assume that the development of the Shark, either hardware
related or OS4 related, has not gone as planned.
C Snyder
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Products like the Shark have been around for some time now. Teron make one called the Micro Server that uses all the same chips as the A1/teron boards. I have seen these. The first Shark prototype I saw was nothing more then a Mac PCI card upgrade from Sonnet with a new cover on it. So if they figured out some drivers for these, the Teron even more so can just take over the Amiga and use it as a slave for the PCI slots and other hardware. All tgat would be used is the Mediator for PCI slots, any video, sound, TV, Ethernet card as well. Keep in mind they want to use one that has all this on the card too so that just makes the classic Amiga it on a real pricey tower and PSU. Here are several of them from another company selling now. http://www.varisys.co.uk/powerpcproducts.html
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@Piru
Yep, Im agree. Seems to be a tactic to sell more / mantain the mediator sales.
Well. Would be great to see in the street the MOS 1.4 for BPPC!!! :-D
What about that? :-D:-D:-D
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All things come to those who wait :-)
(C) The old Heinz Kethcup Ad.
Same here?
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...that they can demo to show that this is not vaporware.
Talking about vapourware, has anyone already seen on of these eFlash1200 cards? I don't mean seen in the web shop, or in an advertisment, but for real?
Michael
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@Piru
"Personally I think this was just a tactic to secure more Mediator sales."
Mainly, yes I agree.
"I predict Shark will never really appear, possibly Elbox blaming AmigaInc(KMOS?)/Hyperion for non-co-operation."
Could be. Time will tell. So far they have very good track record in releasing promised things.
"Not to mention the fact Poland is now part of EU, and such Elbox must now follow the EU regulations."
But it should also make Elbox products more competitive in pricing inside EU. Elbox product are now 1/3 cheaper (example from Finland). More difficult for companies like DCE to compete with Elbox in whatever Elbox desides to do.
I would like to see the return of CPU board manufacturers to Amiga market. (G3 accelerator with built in Radeon7000 for A1200 could sell well, 1.4Ghz accelerator for A1 machines could also be worthwhile (if it's just converted from Apple megarray version to A1 megarray version).
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mboehmer_e3b wrote:
Talking about vapourware, has anyone already seen on of these eFlash1200 cards?
Weren`t they just bog standard PCMCIA flash cards that you can get off ebay for a couple of quid ?
Anyway,how many people have the PCMCIA slot free these days?
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As well as what Piru said, there's the practical side to consider. Even if by some miracle these Sharks come out and work with OS4, who's really going to pay close on the price of an AmigaONE motherboard (and probably more expensive than a Pegasos) for a PPC card? Think about all those horrible 1991 A1200 bottlenecks. PIO HD access (ARGH), slow memory bandwidth, the works. Why pay so much money for a card that's going to be able to reach about 20% of its true potential in an ancient Amiga, an ancient Amiga that could die any time soon?
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I am not a genius, but what about Elbox writing a few drivers for some pci IDE controllers ??? You can buy them in any pc store. Most pc guys buy them to expand their IDE connectors from two to four, but why can´t it be used on a Mediator or Prometheus or Grex ??? No more bottleneck about harddrive transfer :-)
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@Effy
A1200 Mediator can't do DMA to system memory, so (U)DMA modes are out. And even if it did, Z3 transfer rate is too slow for UDMA. Plain PIO modes suck all cpu, and with the IO speed for Mediator the results would be more than disappointing.
Probably that's why there's no PCI ide card driver.
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But the transfers between pci cards is 132 Mb/sec, not ??? So the transfers from the hd that are connected to the IDE pci controller to the Shark PPC pci card are maximum 132 Mb/sec, not ???
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But the transfers between pci cards is 132 Mb/sec, not ???
That's what they say, it's the theoretical maximum. Haven't seen any actual benchmarks, however. Any benchmarks apps to run on Mediator that benchmark transfer speed between two PCI cards?
I don't believe 132MB/sec until I see it.
So the transfers from the hd that are connected to the IDE pci controller to the Shark PPC pci card are maximum 132 Mb/sec, not ???
Not many HDs reach that speed, nor does UDMA interface.
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True, but at least it´s supposed to be a lot faster than when the harddrive is connected to the internal port ... that is : if they write drivers for pci IDE controllers ...
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Effy, the point is that any system based around the mediator (especially with the aged C= Amiga hardware) is going to suck compared to a similarly priced PPC system (ie the Peg or the A1)
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True as well, but until WinUAE can perfectly emulate AGA I still prefer to use a Shark PPC than an AmigaOne or Pegasos II ...
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Effy,
you can easily use UAE also on MorphOS/Pegasos. Where is the prob?
You can see a grab I just made for you here :-)
www.pegasos-italia.com/privato/MOS_050.png
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My eyes hurt when watching tiny window... Someone should add an overlay support into UAE...! :-)
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There is fullscreen support too you know. ;)
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Miki060 : Okay, with my A1230+CV64/3D history in mind your workbench does look breathtaking, I have to admit that. But how well can WinUAE emulate AGA demo´s ??? I come from the C64 scene where demo´s were the most important stuff and the same goes for Amiga demo´s, at least in my personal point of view. No offense to game freaks ...
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SharkPPC is not going to help you because most of AGA demos dont work from PPC OS.
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Sharkppc is one of the best option for me, you can have you classic amiga with all customs chip, the mediator with your expasions and a fast ppc cpu with os4 installed. You dont need use uae for play demos, you can boot from diskdrive etc, for me, the best =)
cheers
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You dont need use uae for play demos
Sure. You just need to shutdown and boot without Shark. Much better than UAE, agreed.
you can boot from diskdrive
With Shark disabled, sure.
SharkPPC won't have direct access to Amiga side of the system, so it's quite impossible to run Amiga HW banging apps from within the Shark. Naturally you can boot direct off the Amiga, but then you lose Shark again.
This being the case, doesn't it make much more sense to have plain A1200 (maybe 030 accelerator) for games, and another system for new system conform things? It's cheaper than Mediator + SharkPPC, too.
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nice grab, Michele :-)
Keep it up
Ciao
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@KennyR
"...think about all those horrible 1991 A1200 bottlenecks. PIO HD access (ARGH), slow memory bandwidth, the works. Why pay so much money for a card that's going to be able to reach about 20% of its true potential in an ancient Amiga, an ancient Amiga that could die any time soon?"
As was the case already with many Amiga accelerators the memory and controllers, and in this case the PCI bus, are not restricted to the Classic Amiga's motherboard constraints. The access to memory on the Shark would not be done through the Amiga motherboard, same to the PCI accesses.
Actually Elbox has said that the Shark (or was that the Shark + only?) was an all computer in itself, with access to classic hardware. So there you go, one more PPC choice.
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Actually Elbox has said that the Shark (or was that the Shark + only?) was an all computer in itself, with access to classic hardware.
Ok, so far so good. SharkPPC is a standalone system on PCI card.
Now here's the tricky part: It's said to have full access to Amiga custom chipset. But that will never work.
Lets imagine as simple thing as a game/demo reading a trackfull of data from a floppy. It will write custom registers to set up DMA for read operation. The address is chip memory. How if the game would be running on SharkPPC system, the address would be local memory there (but lets assume both systems have chip memory mapped 1:1, so addresses remain the same).
Now lets assume that magically the custom registers reads & writes are relayed between the two machines (including new state of custom read-once registers). The final register write initializes DMA transfers from floppy to memory (this happens on the A1200). Once the floppy DMA is finished, the data has been transferred. Next the read routine will use blitter to decode the MFM encoded data read off the floppy. Track has been loaded.
But, here comes the problem. The custom DMA and blitter DMA work on the A1200 memory space, not SharkPPC's. There is no way the system knows the data resulting from the blit should somehow be magically transferred back to SharkPPC!
This applies to other DMA, too. For example writing to a floppy would require the data to somehow be transferred to A1200 first, before the DMA begins.
I ignored several other problems to get this far (actual DMA):
- How can SharkPPC know the value of Custom registers that can be read only once? Reading once loses the status forever.
- How can interrupts be relayed?
- How can SharkPPC ensure the emulation and Amiga 1200 status remain synced?
Conclusion: SharkPPC cannot have access to Amiga custom registers.
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Jose wrote:
Actually Elbox has said that the Shark (or was that the Shark + only?) was an all computer in itself, with access to classic hardware. So there you go, one more PPC choice.
You shouldn't believe everything Elbox say.
It's cheaper and easier just to buy a Pegasos or even an A1 now anyway, no fiddling with ancient hardware.
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SharkOS!! :-P
Now THAT is a cool OS name 8-)
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@Piru
Sounds interesting and I honestly can't answer those but some things come to mind...
- How come there is a working version of OS4 on the Blizzard PPC in wich DeluxePaint works fine? (I really don't know but by this logic it should not work right?)
- "How can SharkPPC ensure the emulation and Amiga 1200 status remain synced?"
Maybe either there is emulation working and 68k halted, or 68k is working by itself and one can't have custom chipset acess? :-?
I can't think of anything about the interrupts problem though.... If some card on the Classic issues an interrupt and the interrupt changes the contents of some registers I guess the only possibility would be to have new drivers/Patches written for those cards :-?
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I was thinking about it and the only way to prevents apps colliding with each other with custom hardware access was not to do it and use the OS. The same thing apply here, so I guess what you were talking about was how the emulation, for example with a demo that has taken over the hardware, knew about 68k interrupts for example? I guess it couldn't know, but demos and code directly accesing the hardware that didn't rely on 68k interrupts would still work? Didn't much demos took control of the hardware but still used the OS for some stuff (like interrups)?
Must admit I'm half in the dark here...
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Jose wrote:
:pint:
Jose
Cheers mate! :-)
:pint:
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How come there is a working version of OS4 on the Blizzard PPC in wich DeluxePaint works fine? (I really don't know but by this logic it should not work right?)
No, it's not the same. Here the CPU and custom chips are on the same system (memory, custom regs, dma etc).
BPPC is directly connected to system bus, shark is not.
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@Jose
Anything using DMA, interrupts, or depending on read-once custom register values would not work.
DMA examples: Paula audio, Floppy read/write, blitting, copper, planar display.
Interrupt examples: Any code programming interrupts directly.
In short: Nothing would work.
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@Naeem
All things come to those who wait
-All + Good
:-P
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@HopperJF
Cheers! :pint: :pint: :-D