Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Helgis75 on January 22, 2003, 01:21:58 PM
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Thought this thread would be the most interesting...It may seem that the A1G3XE is the only one having a faster CPU than originally planned...
Would this mean that the 800Mhz A1G3XE would be the best choice, as opposed to the 800Mhz A1G4XE?
If this speed-similarity is the case, then i feel i should really consider the 800Mhz A1G3XE, because of the full 512KB L2-cache, and the CPU is from IBM. The 750FX G3 CPU is just 1 year old, being produced last year!
Anyone is free to send feedback to this thread, but it has to be related excatly to the A1G3XE vs A1G4XE..Do NOT write other things that don't have anything to do with this thread! Very important, as i want clear answers to all my questions...
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Hmmm, what shall I have for lunch? Suggestions anyone? :-)
Get the G4. It's very very rare for a newer generation processor to be slower than the previous one, and only Intel has a habit of it :-)
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@mikeymike
Exactly!
I miss the Tulatins!!! :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:
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I have ordered an XE-G4 too. I'm not too troubled about
performance. At the time when we get apps that really push
to the limit of the processor, we will either have new
hardware already or the whole platform has gone down the
drain (again) and we are left to depend on third-party
software to keep us afloat, in which case the question is
mostly academic (but at which point that Altivec unit might
be nice to have).
I'm presently more worried on availability of the G4 - i.e
later deliveries of the G4 than the G3. If that's the case I'll
switch over to an G3. But as long as I can get hold of a G4
I'll go for that.
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SlimJim
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I think the speed difference is small overall.
Bandwidth hungry apps like specmark and 68k emulator would benefit from the larger cache of the 750FX. But I would expect that G4 would do things like DVD playing on lower CPU overhead with the help of altivec instructions. I'm sure Moovid vill be updated pretty soon affter AOS4 release to take advantage of Altivec.
(I buy the G4 model after AOS4 is released ... unless I get tired of waiting and go for the MorphOS instead)
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A1XE/G4 here too !
as I said to Helgis on the thread below the Eyetech news item I couldnt resist Extra features ! (Altivec - has a certain ring to it dunnit ?)
I only have a 4K cache at the mo (68030 !) so I couldn't really give a rats arse between 256 or 512K caches - besides it probably only makes a difference on Macs and Linux, who dont have the luxury of compact code blocks. (not mentioning their Bloat !)
I was considering the 750FX (G3 to you) as it is about 50 quid cheaper than the 7451 (G4) solution, and using that saving to pay for the extra sized RAM (512 as opposed to the 128 i originally plumped for) but I told myself "sod it" and went for the extra RAM anyway.
Besides, I gather that Eyetech (or their manufacturer) have a freshly delivered consignment of G4s, and are in the process of manufacture as we speak.
I wonder if me brother in law will lend me his didgie camera so I can post pictures when I get to build me machine ? :-D
Question - does the new revision of the XE have the AMR riser ? is the AC97 sound enabled on board, and are there breakouts for the audio output ?
OK so thats three, but hey ! I've had 2 :pint:'s !
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Well, i really think of going for the 800Mhz A1G3XE, and it's easier available than the G4. Anyway, as long as it's an XE, i should be able to upgrade to a powerful G4 at a later date...As a start, i don' t think it will be so much Altivec-support, really...
It's also more interesting to try out the new 750FX G3 CPU running at 800Mhz! I have now asked Datakompaniet in Norway to send back the extra 729 NOK i paid for the A1G4XE-model, so when available, they will send me the 800Mhz A1G3XE, which actually was my original order...
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Whatever floats yer boat, mate, its your choice !
besides, you can put that extra (how much ? 729 Krona? 50 quid in my book, eh !) cash towards a spanky dual G4 @ 1.25GHz when they come, and be one of the first.
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The XE has got the AMR-slot ditched...
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doncha just love it when posts cross ?! :-P
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According to benchmarks by Motorola, the 7451 is substantially faster than the 750FX at the same clockspeed.
Check:
http://207.172.16.150/cubed/PPCSALESFACT.pdf
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Quite funny..hehe...But i'm glad you also think of the 800Mhz A1G3XE as very good, too..:-)
Of course, if there was an option to go for a 1.2Ghz A1G4XE, then i would have gone for that, but when both the A1G3XE and A1G4XE are 800Mhz, then the A1G3XE simply is a better choice...and someone mentioned that the G4 seems harder to deliver than the G3....Tougher shipment for the G4 than the G3...
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@HyperionMP
I think one can not trust in those benchmarks.
According to Mot the FX model would not be any faster than CXe. I bet Mot has taken the values from thin air.
Even G4 values are twisted. I bet the backside cache of some G4's improve the results, etc...
In short: Motorolla is bluffing there, but hey, it's marketing material after all.
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That's not quite true about the G3. The 750FX G3 at 800Mhz is clearly up to 60-70% faster than the 600Mhz 750CXe G3. The 750CXe only has a 256KB L2-cache and other limitations than the 512KB L2-Cache in the new 750FX G3. The new 750FX also has many other improvements to perfomance and overall technology...
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Helgis75
> [...] and someone mentioned that the G4 seems harder to
> deliver than the G3....Tougher shipment for the G4 than the
> G3...
I wrote something to that effect, but you must really learn
not to take every little comment and make it into a fact.
You do that a lot you know.
To take this case as an example, I am no employee of
Eyetech, nor do I have any inside info as to what kind of
agreements they have with chip producers. Most comments
in here is like that. I hoped that was clear in my post (I
apologize if it was not) but yet you take it as some sort of
usable fact on which to base your opinion.
Not very serious now, when seeing the thread in context,
but if repeated in some other place as FACT, it becomes
misinformation. Such behaviour is called "jumping to
conclusions" and is one of the major ways to start a nasty
rumour. I want no part of it.
Please consider this, when reading comments. Most of
what is written is just assumptions/fears/hopes/dreams,
without any factual backing at all. Learn to be a little more
discriminating.
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SlimJim
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"delivery difficulyies"
the G3 models are IIRC IBM chips, whereas the G4 are all Motorola. As we all know, Mot have a deal with Apple where Mr Jobs soaks up a huge proportion of PPC output. as far as I know, IBM has no such deal. doesnt matter anyway, now. motorola have apparently delivered Eyetech's G4s
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I can't subscribe to this point of view.
I think it is far more likely that the architectural improvements of the 750FX simply do not show up in the results of the SPEC 95 benchmarks.
If you take a look at the G4+ architecture, you'll find that Motorola has made a lot of improvements compared to the original G4 design.
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@HyperionMP
From IBM.com...
for 900 Mhz 750FX SpecInt95 39.9 and SpecFp95 21.8 ...and after I brutally scale it to 733Mhz, it's 31 and 17.
for 700 Mhz 750CXe SpecInt95 is 27.2peak (matches motorollas value for 733Mhz chip) and 25.5base, fp is 14.3peak and 13.9base. If I scale the CXe to 733, its "only" 28.5peak and ...
Anyway... values do not match. FX should have better spec values than what Motorolla admits, etc etc. I bet IBM knows their own chips better than Motorolla.
IMO, it's clear that Motorolla PR man has just cut&pasted those 700Mhz 750CXe values to both 733 CXe and to 733FX ... damn, there is not even a CPU clock multiplier for a 733Mhz CXe...
But anyway, let's forget about that PR material.
IMHO: the speed advantage of G4 at the same clock is not significant, especially if Altivec is not utilized. (I'm still going to go for the G4...)
OFF TOPIC:
@HyperionMP
Have anyone managed to run any SMP apps on LinuxPPC on (any) ArtisiaS machine(s)?
((btw. none of this is meant as a offending post, just my points and a fair question))
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I was a bit confused to what to go for, and this also affected Datakompaniet a little while, but i was fast enough to tell them that i keep sticking to the best choice actually - the A1G4XE, no matters how fast it will be...so, i should be safe about that...
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Helgis75, if you want to start playing with the LinuxPPC before AOS4 ships, go for it. Do not worry wether it's G3 or G4.
No matter how it ends up, you can most likely upgrade the CPU easily, if you later deside so.
If the G4 model is not available when AOS4 ships I get the other chip, if it's available.
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ksk wrote:
Helgis75, if you want to start playing with the LinuxPPC before AOS4 ships, go for it. Do not worry wether it's G3 or G4.
No matter how it ends up, you can most likely upgrade the CPU easily, if you later deside so.
If the G4 model is not available when AOS4 ships I get the other chip, if it's available.
Good advice, my dear friend:-) I let the order be unchanged now (A1G4XE it is), as long as it will arrive...If not, in time for OS4 to be delivered, then it should be the G3-XE instead...
But clearly, the G4 must be the best one, right? Many reasons for that, isn't it?
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Still prefer My ordered G4XE for sure!
Here i have some stuff already waiting:
ATI Radeon 8500 DDR TV
LG CDRW 48x 12x 52x
both 7200 ATA133 80&40 Hardisks
oops! seems to have missed a nice Keyboard/mice and
Tower!I must go for it now!
Since XE had audio headers, live! can be later.
waiting the most important thing...
:hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:
Motherboard & RAM!!!!
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Maybe I`ll reach 50 posts (two checkered cubes)
before i get the motherboard...
:ranting::cry::ranting::flame::madashell::destroy:
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You are actually right! Still waiting for my A1G4XE mobo...I caused a little confusion at Datakompaniet when reading about the update to the A1G3XE, but i was luckily fast enough to send mail back and demand to keep sticking to the A1G4XE order! :-)
These are what i have:
Black Chieftech Dragon MIDI-Tower w/360W PSU + 4 Cooler-fans
1GB SDRAM DIMMs (2 parts 512MB 133Mhz Buf.Reg.ECC-type)
Black internal 1.44MB HD-Floppy
Black internal Samsung 16x/48x DVD-ROM EIDE/ATAPI
Black internal Plextor 40x/12x/40x CDRW EIDE/ATAPI
Crucial ATI Radeon 8500LE 128MB DDR AGP card
SoundBlaster Live Digital 5.1 PCI-soundcard
Logitech Cordless Desktop Comfort/Optical MouseMan
Remaing parts are:
120GB x 2 Western Digital harddrives
19" Hyundai DynaFlat SVGA Silver/Black monitor
Inspire 6700 6.1 Digital Surround-speakers..
That's all..:-)
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@Helgis75
>But clearly, the G4 must be the best one, right? Many reasons for that, isn't it?
The comparisson is not simple.
G4 has the Altivec, 750FX has larger cache, G4 has extra instruction unit, 750FX has shorter instruction pipeline, G4 can have L3 cache, 750FX consumes only 5.7W of power at 1Ghz, etc...
With the Altivec optimized code G4 can do unbelieveable things in scientific applications and it does have faster FPU... and it has better SMP support than the G3.
IMO: G4 is slightly better. If G4 is fully used it's a lot better...
I think some Hyperion guy once said that Warp3D might benefit from Altivec ... that could yield better 3D performance...
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ksk wrote:
@Helgis75
>But clearly, the G4 must be the best one, right? Many reasons for that, isn't it?
The comparisson is not simple.
G4 has the Altivec, 750FX has larger cache, G4 has extra instruction unit, 750FX has shorter instruction pipeline, G4 can have L3 cache, 750FX consumes only 5.7W of power at 1Ghz, etc...
With the Altivec optimized code G4 can do unbelieveable things in scientific applications and it does have faster FPU... and it has better SMP support than the G3.
IMO: G4 is slightly better. If G4 is fully used it's a lot better...
I think some Hyperion guy once said that Warp3D might benefit from Altivec ... that could yield better 3D performance...
Clearly impressive stuffs! Damn it! What the hell! I keep sticking with my A1G4XE order then! Here we go!!! :-) :-D :-D :-D :-D 8-) 8-) :-o :oops: :roll: :hammer: :crazy: :destroy: :destroy: :flame: :flame: :destroy:
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HOW!!?!? Your Radeon 8500 has 128Mb DDR?
Mine only had 64Mb.But is an ATI itself,not a Powered by
Ati GFX card,what differences and how about performance at all?
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Ami603 wrote:
Still prefer My ordered G4XE for sure!
Here i have some stuff already waiting:
ATI Radeon 8500 DDR TV
LG CDRW 48x 12x 52x
both 7200 ATA133 80&40 Hardisks
oops! seems to have missed a nice Keyboard/mice and
Tower!I must go for it now!
Since XE had audio headers, live! can be later.
waiting the most important thing...
:hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:
Motherboard & RAM!!!!
I've gone for the XE G4 like most. Ordered mine 2 months ago so this new option was not available.
The way i see it there is a price difference of £50 for a reason. You pay for what you get.
Bought a Radeon 8500 but I've got an AGP Voodoo 3 3000 to use until the Warp3D radeon drivers are ready.
7200RPM 40gig Maxtor HD
ATA 100/133 80 Wire "glow in the dark round cables"
Floppy - Glow in the dark round cable.
1 GIG of RAM
2 Blue LED case fans
2 Blue Cold cathode tubes
LG 48x15x48 CDRW
Liteon DVD-ROM
Soundblaster live 5.1
Wireless PS Keyboard & Mouse
V770K Blue / Silver Case with transparent side panel. Front USB / Audio connectors.
Boing ball power button.
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Ami603 wrote:
HOW!!?!? Your Radeon 8500 has 128Mb DDR?
Mine only had 64Mb.But is an ATI itself,not a Powered by
Ati GFX card,what differences and how about performance at all?
Glad you asked, buddy:-) Made by ATI yes, but delivered by Crucial. 128MB yes, at 250Mhz clock speed with 128-bit DDR-memory...Not that bad at all..That's why it called 8500LE....:-)
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The worst difference about both your and my system are that
i can Have OS4 Sooner than you,in fact,i ALREADY have it! ;)
:-D:-D
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Ami603 wrote:
The worst difference about both your and my system are that
i can Have OS4 Sooner than you,in fact,i ALREADY have it! ;)
:-D:-D
Lucky bastard, then! Hehe...! :-) :-D :-D :-D
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Helgis75 wrote:
Ami603 wrote:
HOW!!?!? Your Radeon 8500 has 128Mb DDR?
Mine only had 64Mb.But is an ATI itself,not a Powered by
Ati GFX card,what differences and how about performance at all?
Glad you asked, buddy:-) Made by ATI yes, but delivered by Crucial. 128MB yes, at 250Mhz clock speed with 128-bit DDR-memory...Not that bad at all..That's why it called 8500LE....:-)
I bought the powermagic one which is an ATI built 64MB version. only difference is that it runs at 250Mhz not 275Mhz. I read a review on the net and it runs fine overclocked at 275Mhz
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I believe it's possible to overclock the graphic board, but it seems to risky..
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Please for Automatic post count increase push >here<
tick!
One more time...
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Helgis75 wrote:
I believe it's possible to overclock the graphic board, but it seems to risky..
Its a risk some people are willing to take.
I over clocked my Blizzard PPC from 240Mhz to 280Mhz by soldering in an Oscillator socket an putting a 70Mhz Oscillator in it from on-spec.
It recently sold again on amibench so its still doing the rounds and i did that back in 1999.
I wonder if the 800Mhz G4 will be over clockable.
Not that its worth attemping until the warranty is up.
FSB 133.33Mhz X 6 multiplier = 800Mhz
If you can change the multiplier to 7 it will gives you 933 Mhz or x 8 = 1066 Mhz
:-D :-D :-D
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Ami603 wrote:...
i can Have OS4 Sooner than you,in fact,i ALREADY have it! ;)
:-D:-D
Damn! I hate when people do that ... uh ... now where's my heart medicine ...
Ok, now. .. are you betatesting the AOS4 parts on 68k or what ...
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Should be too long before my A1G4XE should arrive... :-) :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Helgis75 wrote:
Should be too long before my A1G4XE should arrive... :-) :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
[guessing mode]
The dev G4's should be with developers this week.
1 week of testing should take us upto around 31/01/03.
Then full production should start according to alans posting.
So hopefully around 10/02/03 perhaps
[\guessing mode]
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Excellent! Should be very soon! About time! :-) :-D
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If this speed-similarity is the case, then i feel i should really consider the 800Mhz A1G3XE, because of the full 512KB L2-cache, and the CPU is from IBM. The 750FX G3 CPU is just 1 year old, being produced last year!
i had an ibm hard drive and what a load of crap that is just over a year old and not much good anyway the g4 is made by motorola and i have not had any problems with there stuff. The g4 has altivec which if os 4 uses would give it the edge over the g3 ?
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If you take a look at the G4+ architecture, you'll find that Motorola has made a lot of improvements compared to the original G4 design.
That depends on what you mean by improvements.. Clock for clock the original G4 is faster than the G4+. Power requirements for the G4+ is also much higher compared to the original G4, even when adjusting for the higher clock speeds of the G4+.
Vidar
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Helgis75 wrote:
You are actually right! Still waiting for my A1G4XE mobo...I caused a little confusion at Datakompaniet when reading about the update to the A1G3XE, but i was luckily fast enough to send mail back and demand to keep sticking to the A1G4XE order! :-)
These are what i have:
Black Chieftech Dragon MIDI-Tower w/360W PSU + 4 Cooler-fans
1GB SDRAM DIMMs (2 parts 512MB 133Mhz Buf.Reg.ECC-type)
Black internal 1.44MB HD-Floppy
Black internal Samsung 16x/48x DVD-ROM EIDE/ATAPI
Black internal Plextor 40x/12x/40x CDRW EIDE/ATAPI
Crucial ATI Radeon 8500LE 128MB DDR AGP card
SoundBlaster Live Digital 5.1 PCI-soundcard
Logitech Cordless Desktop Comfort/Optical MouseMan
Remaing parts are:
120GB x 2 Western Digital harddrives
19" Hyundai DynaFlat SVGA Silver/Black monitor
Inspire 6700 6.1 Digital Surround-speakers..
That's all..:-)
yeah i dont know... i need a bit more....
ill have a couple of Seagate Cheetah X15's! (fastest HDD in the world!)
my main monitor will probably be a 21"(or 22") Sony Trinitron - or mabee Mitsubishi Diamond Tron, depending on the image quality
ill have zip drives
plextor UW SCSI CD reader
+much more!
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hithereiamaboringpersoniwillsoonbeputtingmyorderinformyA1andicantwaittoogetmymittsonitilikeyouravataritsveryyou! :-D
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I have a 21" Sony Trinitron, a nice Tower chassi and a CD burner. I also have a copy each of Freespace and Quake2 that I cannot use (my A4000 has a distinct lack of PPC- and Gfx-cards).
...And that's all there is to my AOneXEG4 as of yet :-).
I'll start shopping when compatability lists are out.
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SlimJim
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what i want to know is:
will amigaOne boot from a SCSI HDD?
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iamaboringperson wrote:
what i want to know is:
will amigaOne boot from a SCSI HDD?
Cant see why not the OS4 feature list did not mention the A1 only cyberstorm and blizzards.
From OS4 feature list.....
OS 4.x native SCSI drivers for the Symbios SCRIPTS family of SCSI controllers
Support for the onboard SCSI controllers of the Cyberstorm PPC and BlizzardPPC.
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I've understood that (at least some) SCRIPTS SCSI controllers for the PCI slot should work.