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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / General => Topic started by: KennyR on May 31, 2004, 02:19:34 AM
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This crap really p1sses me off. Why is it every job application form wants to know absolutely everything about me? Work (and unemployment) history, hobbies, age, marital status, interests... what the hell have these got to do with my competence? I'm applying to work for someone, not trying to be a sperm donor, for god's sake. As I see it, the employer doesn't need to know about me, and doesn't really have the right to know about me either. I just wish they'd butt out and just fuxxing take my qualifications of evidence of my competence and dedication - I only spent most of my life getting them! :-x
I'm a boring guy who's unlikely ever to be very friendly and even less likely to socialise, but I can do the work and will do it, and better than most people ever could. So why the hell do they want all this trivial and superficial rubbish most people lie through their teeth about anyway?
Work is work. People do it for money. The sooner these companies learn that and stop blowing this bullsh!t avalanche all over us and giving jobs to better liars rather than better workers, the better for everyone.
Grrrr! :pissed:
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:-)
So why the hell do they want all this trivial and superficial rubbish most people lie through their teeth about anyway?
It's mostly not trivial or superficial.
It's virtually all optional, anyway.
During the interview, if they ask about your marital status(for example), and you reply with something like: "Why, is that important?" - or - "What an interesting question, why do you ask?" they are likely to find you intelligent and be more likely to employ you. (Always ask 1 or 2 questions at a job interview BTW)
It's quite understandable that an employer wants to know about whom they are going to be employing - you could be a psychopath, or a thief.
Much of it is only there to get an idea as to how intelligent the person is, and what kind of person they are(are they honest, for example), so that they can feel more comfortable in hiring you.
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It's quite understandable that an employer wants to know about whom they are going to be employing - you could be a psychopath, or a thief.
Then I would have a criminal record and would be forced to tell them this by law. The rest I don't need to tell them. All they need to know is that I can do the job. To be perfectly honest I could enjoy paint drying as a hobby - it has absolutely nothing to do with them and no bearing on my ability to work.
It's not optional, by the way. Miss it out and I might as well not apply for jobs at all.
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It depends on the job. What's the job?
If it's shoving stuff in boxes all day long(in a pre-defined order), they probably want to know they can trust you - you can tell alot about a person at an interview, and usually you particular answers don't matter.
If the job was something that required more skill and intelligence, it's easy to understand how they would want to see how you perform during the interview.
Perhaps the job requires people skills - during the interview, if you can't face up to a panel without shaking and 'umming and arring' ... well, you can probably see why they wouldn't employ you.
I once went for a telemarketing job, for example, that day I was tired, I was nervous, I couldn't think of what to say - even though I was ment to be talking about myself - and it was obvious that I couldn't do the job (however if I had of been feeling better, they would have seen a very different me)
Another example was a job that really required me to be able to socialize - and be honest. I did extremely well at that interiview. I didn't get the job, however I was told over the phone later that day, that I would be put on their list just incase there was anything coming up in the future.
I've done some interviewer skills training, and I realize that there is more to it than just getting all of the write answers filled out in the right boxes.
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The job is a lab technician. It's a skilled job but hardly needs a lot of people skills - being told what to do is most of it. Knowing my way around chemistry and being able to solve problems for people is also important. No problems there. I don't see why they want to know my life story.
I once went for a telemarketing job, for example, that day I was tired, I was nervous, I couldn't think of what to say - even though I was ment to be talking about myself - and it was obvious that I couldn't do the job (however if I had of been feeling better, they would have seen a very different me)
If they ask me a question about the job, I'll be able to answer it. I'd be able to tell them why conjugated polymers conduct electricity in great detail, or how reversed phase HPLC works.
If they ask me things like "If you were a biscuit, what kind would you be?" or any of that meaningless psychobabble, then I'll be screwed, because I'm a practical thinker and don't have room in my head for that kind of arty farty mince. Personal questions will be deflected too, because as far as I'm concerned, I cooperate better with people if I have the advantage that they don't know what kind of a person I am. I like to be left alone personally.
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If they ask me things like "If you were a biscuit, what kind would you be?" or any of that meaningless psychobabble, then I'll be screwed,...
The sort of questions you can expect are (EG):
- Why do you wish to work here?
- What do you have to offer us?
- Might you be continueing study in the future?
- What are your strengths? / What are your weaknesses?
They might also like to find out if you would prefer to work elsewhere in the future(next 10 years for example), where are you headed?
I've never been asked any tricky psycho. questions.
as far as I'm concerned, I cooperate better with people if I have the advantage that they don't know what kind of a person I am.
Which is a problem for them.
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@kennyr,
I hope that you don't misunderstand this, but based on your attitude about this stuff, it would be very difficult for anyone to hire you, and I'll tell you why.
Job applications and the like are very much miniature psychological evaluations. There are millions of people out there who are qualified to do the actual job (any job) that you're applying for, but there's a hell of a lot more to it than the basic qualifications. If there weren't, there would be zero unemployment.
For example, a prospective employer needs to know, are you an arse or a fun-loving guy with hightened family morals? Did you waste your youth building plastic models (if the job was model making, that would be a great thing) or did you spend your school years doing extra-curricular school activities such as high-school politics (good for political or public relations positions) or the debate team (good for sales and political positions)?
Are you rude and abrasive? Are you a slacker or a ass-buster? Remember... Work places are many people crammed into a small area for the express purpose of creating or performing a task. If you don't get along well with your peers, or you think you're above them, or whatever, that disrupts the entire team.
Imagine if you will, you and "Polyhead" both applying for the same job. Imagine that like you, "Polyhead" has all of the qualifications to do the job itself (as do thousands of other people). The difference between hired and not is very often how well you answer those stupid questions.
The biggest question in the mind of the employer is, "which of these two people do I believe would best represent you and your company to the customer"? If you both apply for the same job, and both have similar basic qualifications, how else would you expect a prospective employer make a logical choice?
In most cases, the ONLY way to do that would be to ask stupid questions on an application. In 1985, things were different and interviewers could use their "gut instinct" during the interview to decide who was best suited for a position. Nowadays, it's quite possible that someone might sue a company for not hiring them, claiming racial, gender, sexual preference, or whatever discrimination. If you're a company and you have something on paper, you can prove it was not based on anything personal whatsoever. Otherwise, it can get really, really messy.
In short, those who answer the stupid questions well are worth considering. Those who {bleep} about the stupid questions are not.
Answering the questions well depends on your ability to evaluate the position itself. Your ability to answer these stupid questions well reflects 110% on your ability to both think on the fly as well as to be a professional. After all, answering a bunch of stupid questions is probably the easiest thing you'd EVER be asked to do by a boss after you were employed later.
Your basic qualifications are not even really relevant at that point, because when they're interviewing you, they already KNOW that you're technically proficient (otherwise why bother with an interview)?
It's really that simple, and the person doing the interview is normally a very good judge of character. While they do make mistakes, they can usually tell in the first three minutes whether you're going to work well with their other employees or not.
It's all just a game, but if you want to get paid, you have to play it.
Wayne
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KennyR wrote:
This crap really p1sses me off. Why is it every job application form wants to know absolutely everything about me? Work (and unemployment) history, hobbies, age, marital status, interests... what the hell have these got to do with my competence? I'm applying to work for someone, not trying to be a sperm donor, for god's sake. As I see it, the employer doesn't need to know about me, and doesn't really have the right to know about me either. I just wish they'd butt out and just fuxxing take my qualifications of evidence of my competence and dedication - I only spent most of my life getting them! :-x
I'm a boring guy who's unlikely ever to be very friendly and even less likely to socialise, but I can do the work and will do it, and better than most people ever could. So why the hell do they want all this trivial and superficial rubbish most people lie through their teeth about anyway?
Work is work. People do it for money. The sooner these companies learn that and stop blowing this bullsh!t avalanche all over us and giving jobs to better liars rather than better workers, the better for everyone.
Grrrr! :pissed:
Work's for life (or should be for life), KennyR. And working solely becomes a rarity these days.
btw. grow up KennyR.
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A friend of mine in recruitment said that the reason why they have the type of questions that Kenny doesnt like is it's a way of reducing the number of applications. That way the lazy people see those types of questions and don't bother filling in the application, and that way employers use that as a first pass filtration system.
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hey, Kenny, while I agree that the "interview" is a giant pain in the a55, and I personally hate all that bullsh.it, it seems to be the way things are. Wayne basically has it right.
what I do - when I have the energy for it - is the turn the tables and interview THEM. I basically want to know if their company is good enough for ME. what do I get If I work at their place? does it satisfy MY creative needs, my ambitions, my goals?
Of course, I have Emmys, so I can use that to my benefit. But I've only recently come to the conclusion that I need to push that. Previously, I was too humble. And that wasn't doing me any good.
Speel, I disagree that the trend is moving away from self-employment. When the economy is bad, such choices happen more often. mostly out of dire need.
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dezignersrepublic wrote:
A friend of mine in recruitment said that the reason why they have the type of questions that Kenny doesnt like is it's a way of reducing the number of applications. That way the lazy people see those types of questions and don't bother filling in the application, and that way employers use that as a first pass filtration system.
Based on my recent experiences I have to agree.
The Job Centre advisors told me that to apply for one position, I'd have to send a CV and covering letter, which I did. A week later, the company sent me an application form. I filled that in and sent it off, then got a letter saying I was now on the database and would be contacted prior to any media advertisements about any new opportunities. No mention was made of the position I originally applied for.
I then missed a call from them and on my voicemail was a message asking that I call back. I did, and was told the same thing that was in the letter and that I may be called in the near future about a position.
Maybe a day later, she called about a vacancy. It sounded good, and she said she'd send some information out. The information arrives and it's the exact same information she gave me over the phone. I then have to call her up again to arrange an interview...
Perseverence must be 90% of the game. I still didn't get the job, though. Missed a day of heavenly unskilled labour for it too, I'd have been a good £70 better off if I hadn't bothered.
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Answer is simple..
DONT work for someone else.
Start up on your own..
but wait ... Your a chemist (did I get that right ?) What the hell would you know about sales ? Marketing ?
I guess your'd better employ someone ...
Now ... how do we choose who's gonna be best for YOUR company ? they all seem qualified.
Yours is a fledgling company, make a bad choice and ... well ... Your'll probably go down the pan. You can't just sack underperforming workers these days.
i'm sure your getting the drift of what I'm driving at.
Yup .. It Sucks, BIG TIME. Especially when it nearly ALWAYS turns out to be .. NOT WHAT you know
BUT WHO you know.
Cecilia is right ..to a degree .. Throws em off guard and shows YOU have vision.. Push it too far though and they'll think.. Huh ..what a smart ass.
Good luck.
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@the_editor
Nah, self-employment is not an option. I'd need millions to start up a business in what I'm trained for - equipment, labs, chemicals, accreditation, insurance... And then there's the point that I'm just a graduate and haven't made any decisions more important than passing an exam.
Self-employed people usually work very hard and get little back. I'd like to work in the reverse of that situation. :)
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@All
I can't do it. All this stuff is pretentious above belief. It's like accepting the person who has the biggest feather in their hat. I'm just not into that kind of thing, and I'm sure thousands of able people are just the same. Employers are missing out on a lot.
I don't believe for a second that CVs ever properly reflect the person they're written for. There's more chance that Hollwood action films show real life, or that catwalk fashions will actually be worn by real people. It's all p1ss and wind, and I just can't stand that. It's a game I'm not willing to play, and if that means I can't get a job - tough luck.
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Good point.
Which is EXACTLY why I never bothered to buy my own truck.
Too much hassle for not much extra reward.
But then ... Speculate to accumulate.
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@KennyR
heh, yes, but they got the jobs and you don't.
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Then employers have a load of pretentious asses instead of competent people. Their loss.
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Yes, and others work their asses off to pay your unemployment.
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I don't claim unemployment money.
(At least, I don't now.)
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so you live from air (or a generous heritage)?
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A generous student loan.
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Look, KennyR, sometimes in our life we need to do things against our will. The laundry, cooking, vacuum cleaning...
I dunno how you have been raised..
I do not think you should make such a problem about an interview... It's easy :-)
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Speel, I haven't been asked to go to an interview yet! Not a single one in six months!
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If the mountain does not come to Muhammed, Muhammed has to go to the mountain.
Here in NL, ppl with a chemistry degree are very much wanted, if I know it correct.
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I can't speak Dutch :-P
Besides, if moving 100 miles down south to get a job in England isn't possible for me, moving to Europe would be even harder.
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Take up plumbing?
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Plumbing? Whatever, I'd still get the position snatched away by buzzword fiends who say they're dynamic and flexible and whatever else crap they spout on these forms. Not to mention the brazen liars who say their hobbies include parachuting, windsurfing and potholing just to look interesting.
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KennyR wrote:
I can't speak Dutch :-P
No problem. The Dutch can speak English. We're no French..
Besides, if moving 100 miles down south to get a job in England isn't possible for me, moving to Europe would be even harder.
Why? I know a lot of ppl, including some of my family who went to foreign countries for work.
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KennyR wrote:
Plumbing? Whatever, I'd still get the position snatched away by buzzword fiends who say they're dynamic and flexible and whatever else crap they spout on these forms. Not to mention the brazen liars who say their hobbies include parachuting, windsurfing and potholing just to look interesting.
Does your CV outline just how defeatist you are? Do you not think that pretty much everyone else on the planet has to go through the same system of living as you're trying to do, and that most of them are getting along just fine?
If you want to make a decent life for yourself, you have to do it. Nobody else will.
It's not easy. If it were, then most people would be looking for something more challenging.
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And if anyone would like to read something on a more positive note:
http://www.mikeymike.org.uk/mikes/desiderata.txt
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@ Mikeymike
That is perhaps one of the most profound yet gentle reads I have read in a VERY long time. Thankyou.
@KennyR
If I were a prospective employer who was reading what you'd said in this thread, not only would I not give you a job but I 'd slap you for being such an a$$hat.
You want a job, you play the game, you lie through your back teeth on your CV (BTW, did I mention to anyone I'm actually a Duke?) And smile like you're on tranks. You don't swear, you ask questions when unclear about something. BUT FFS MAN LEAVE THE UNIVERSITY ATTITUDE BEHIND YOU.
So its not who you are, big deal. You want food in yer belly and a roof over yer head, you work, to work, you have to get off that high horse of yours and bend and cotort until you get one, if you're lucky, you get one that A pays worth a damn, and B you enjoy.
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well, lets not go beating up on Kenny.
The facts of life are that none of this is fun, fair or nice.
You people should try Los Angeles, the phoney arm-pit of the universe.
there is every know prejudice there and then some.
Even after getting an emmy nomination it still took the company I was working for about a year and a half to get work.
And the first person to get employed (elsewhere) was this 23 year old kid. because he was a GUY and 23.
I've gone to interviews where I've basically been told it was a "boys club".
so, i'm OUT.
I'm not one of the beautiful people. I don't have a goatee, I don't look like a surfer, blah, blah, blah...
mind you, they don't SAY that because they are all a bunch or sniviling cowards, but I know.
There is such a thing as "The Grey List". it's mostly for directors, but anytime they think you are Too Old, forget it.
a 30 year old writer was fired because they found out how old she was and figured she was TOO old for that series!!!!
Yeah, you read right 30.
man, are they stupid!
anyway, even at my age, i still get no respect. I still get people who are quite happy to rip me off and shaft me. even while they try to figure out how to exploit MY Emmys for their own benefit. (well, they TRY, I do what I can to prevent it).
Yeah, I refuse to lie, I refuse to suck some fat pigs' dick, I refuse to steal, i refuse to be a piece of sh.it
sorry, but that's how I am and I'm not changing.
Basically it takes alot of time and effort to find people who are worthy of my abilities and talents.
Unfortunately, the superior people I knew in LA have died and I'm at a loss to know what to do at this point.
What I do know is that at least I didn't waste my life and I have nothing to be ashamed of.
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Ah, at least Cecilia understands what integrity is, out of the lot of you. Pride in one's own values, and complete refusal to compromise them. Some of you should learn how to be more faithful to your own beliefs and not make system whores of yourselves.
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Uh-huh... I shouldn't have taken that job. I should have starved instead.
People in some situations just don't have the choice, much as I sympathise with you. :-(
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tpg wrote:
Uh-huh... I shouldn't have taken that job. I should have starved instead.
Doing work isn't the part I detest. We all have to do stuff we don't want, that's how civilisation works. But this layer of pretentiousness they have over the whole jobs industry really stifles it and makes entry really hard for the right kind of people, the kind of people I'd want working for me if I was an employer. Instead we just get people well trained in the art of glamorising every little mundane and banal thing in their lives and turning it into positive - but very false - things to say.
People in some situations just don't have the choice, much as I sympathise with you.
They do have a choice in some situations: to be more honest and to put a cap on the industry bullsh!t fountain from concerted effort. But like that's ever going to happen... :-(
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KennyR wrote:
Doing work isn't the part I detest. We all have to do stuff we don't want, that's how civilisation works. But this layer of pretentiousness they have over the whole jobs industry really stifles it and makes entry really hard for the right kind of people, the kind of people I'd want working for me if I was an employer.
I maintain my case. Until your attitude changes, you will pretty much remain unemployable. I know. I've been there. I'm not saying the games are good, necessary, or even warranted, but they have the money, they have the job. If they want you to do a song and dance to get what they have, that's entirely THEIR call.
I realize that you're very, very young (and at least apparently naive), but you'll figure it out eventually.
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If you want creative workers, give them enough time to play. - John Cleese, comic actor
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KennyR wrote:
Plumbing? Whatever, I'd still get the position snatched away by buzzword fiends who say they're dynamic and flexible and whatever else crap they spout on these forms. Not to mention the brazen liars who say their hobbies include parachuting, windsurfing and potholing just to look interesting.
:lol: Too true!
Reminds me of Personal Ads. "Enjoys fine dining, walks on the beach, camping, horseback riding"
What do you actually know about someone once you filter out the trendy "spice it up" cliches everyone includes?
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What do you actually know about someone once you filter out the trendy "spice it up" cliches everyone includes?
Speaking of cliches...
Don't say that you're a 'hard worker'. That's WAAAY over used, and an employer will certainly get sick of hearing it!
Use the term 'conciencious' instead.
:-)
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Ah, at least Cecilia understands what integrity is, out of the lot of you. Pride in one's own values, and complete refusal to compromise them. Some of you should learn how to be more faithful to your own beliefs and not make system whores of yourselves.
Thanks for the insult KennyR. Not sure what I said to deserve it.
In the meantime, I'm doing what I've wanted to do for a long time (self-employed IT techie), while searching for a job at the same time.
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(http://members.aol.com/Mazonga/willie1.jpg)
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cecilia wrote:
I've gone to interviews where I've basically been told it was a "boys club".
Such is explicitly forbidden here in NL (and most probably also in the US). You can sue them.
But KennyR, I recognise very much in the complaints of you, but my parents told me to deal with it, because they WON'T change.
I am not someone who really can represent himself. I am no way a 'beach boy'. I do not have tone of voice, I hardly have any facial expression, and I or I look ppl way too deep in the eyes, or I do not look ppl in the eyes at all.
Yet I do not worry about getting a job. Just being on the right place on the right time, having a patient and friendly attitude and focus primarily on your motivations why you chose the job should be enough.
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mikeymike wrote:
Ah, at least Cecilia understands what integrity is, out of the lot of you. Pride in one's own values, and complete refusal to compromise them. Some of you should learn how to be more faithful to your own beliefs and not make system whores of yourselves.
Thanks for the insult KennyR. Not sure what I said to deserve it.
ah, well, try to forgive kenny his outburst, born of frustration and youth. I'm sure he really didn't mean you. everybody knows you are a nice guy.
:-D
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
cecilia wrote:
I've gone to interviews where I've basically been told it was a "boys club".
Such is explicitly forbidden here in NL (and most probably also in the US). You can sue them.
I've no doubt that Europe is more civilized than Los Angeles.
However, suing everytime someone does this is only possible if (a) one has endless money and (b) endless time to waste.
plus, once someone proves themselves to be such scum, THEY don't deserve me. I don't want to work for people that don't appreciate me.
this is also where the whole stupidity of Political Correctness comes in. Afraid to "say" what they think, they dance around the issue. People in LA NEVER say "no". they just don't call you back.
they are spineless, dickless eunuchs.
Just being on the right place on the right time, having a patient and friendly attitude and focus primarily on your motivations why you chose the job should be enough.
yup! luck seems to be the only saving grace, here. it was luck that put me in contact with Tony and Frank and I just took the bull by the horns and realized I wanted to be associated with these wonderful guys. and at first I didn't know how great they were.
you have to trust your instincts.
but, often there seems no luck at all, and that's very depressing.
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KennyR wrote:
tpg wrote:
Uh-huh... I shouldn't have taken that job. I should have starved instead.
Doing work isn't the part I detest. We all have to do stuff we don't want, that's how civilisation works. But this layer of pretentiousness they have over the whole jobs industry really stifles it and makes entry really hard for the right kind of people, the kind of people I'd want working for me if I was an employer. Instead we just get people well trained in the art of glamorising every little mundane and banal thing in their lives and turning it into positive - but very false - things to say.
People in some situations just don't have the choice, much as I sympathise with you.
They do have a choice in some situations: to be more honest and to put a cap on the industry bullsh!t fountain from concerted effort. But like that's ever going to happen... :-(
Pride and integrety are one thing, but you seem to take to extreems. I'm sorry if I seem rather angry in my last post but I consider things like food of greater importance, especially when I consider that my son also has to eat. So you have to be "Interview Kenny" for what? half an hour.. so what! You can take pride and have integrety in yer job but you got to be more flexable in yer approach to getting the job. As for glamorising the mundane, have you ever thought that that is what keeps them going? When I was a cleaner, I know it was what kept me going. The pay and conditions were crap, but I kept going and thats how I did.
(BTW cleaning is perhaps the most soul destroying job one can embark in, you do a great job, only for the people you clean for ruin it day after day after day. But I'm proud I stuck at it for 18 months until I got my nightshift factory job, shame that didn't last heh).
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iamaboringperson wrote:
(http://members.aol.com/Mazonga/willie1.jpg)
:lol:
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Why does everyone think I'm young? For someone trying to get their first job, I'm horribly old (26 is old for someone who's never had a job, trust me). And that counts against me a lot, I'm certain.
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the_leander wrote:
(BTW cleaning is perhaps the most soul destroying job one can embark in, you do a great job, only for the people you clean for ruin it day after day after day. But I'm proud I stuck at it for 18 months until I got my nightshift factory job, shame that didn't last heh).
I wonder if that's as soul destroying as filling out form after form of meaningless fluff and getting no interviews, no interest, and only the ocassional "Sorry but we regret to inform..." letter while your health and looks are disappearing fast from having nothing to do all day, and you're heading fast towards the point where your qualifications will mean nothing and soon you'll have to pay back £5000 at £180 a month. That's really quite frustrating, to put it mildly.
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KennyR wrote:
Why does everyone think I'm young? For someone trying to get their first job, I'm horribly old (26 is old for someone who's never had a job, trust me). And that counts against me a lot, I'm certain.
I'm 38 years old, as of today as a matter of fact, and your questions, statements, and actions make you seem very, very young. I would not have guessed 18. I can state unequivocably that I understand how you feel, and what you're going through, because I've been there. Most of us have, so good luck.
Wayne
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T_Bone wrote:
What do you actually know about someone once you filter out the trendy "spice it up" cliches everyone includes?
Nothing, that's my point. It's unnatural selection. Survival of those with the biggest inflatable cheek pouch.
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@Kenny,
Although you and I have differing perspectives on most things I still see you as an intelligent & articulate person.
However, as mentioned by Wayne earlier you need to learn to "play the game" when applying for jobs a little more than you are doing at present.
Yes this does involve bending your principles and quieting your views whilst at the interview and application stages. Your attitude smacks of much more of the immature student rather than responsible potential employee. You need to listen to what others have said on this post and follow their guidance, believe me they have done it and so have I the methods you choose to express your views simply burn more bridges than they build.
You are now in the adult world and have to act appropriately, whilst your chosen trade / profession does not mean an external customer facing role, potential employers still want to employ someone who can work well within their existing team and will not rock the boat, this is what you have to convey at interview, not give the impression of someone who will fight (verbally) at any given opportunity.
Once you have been given a job you can gradually let your true personality come through and this is where you can show your true potential, but by this time you will have had chance to assess the organisation you are working for and the culture within, and thus hopefully you will have a more mature approach to your working life.
For example I am 23 (no uni degree but qualified accountant) and earn c.£30k pa plus co. car & PMI and a few other benefits, I am now in a position of recruiting people who are often twice my age, as stated by others, once the qualification barrier has been passed the next hurdle for potential interviewees is one of fitting in with the existing team, and frankly your attitude is the biggest thing that needs to change. I can find a thousand people with the same qualifications as you, but what will separate the applicants (& hence interviewees) is their personality, and whilst you appear bright & well educated you also come across as arrogant and a trouble causer.
Sorry for the blunt statement but this is what is holding you back, you need to play the game more, and in time you will learn when it is appropriate for you to air your views and when it is best to keep your mouth shut. This is only something you will learn in time as you are not selected for interviews.
I understand that this is not what you want to hear and you will feel that I have no backbone, but the truth is it is me, and people like me who do the recruiting for firms and you either play by our rules or don't play at all, for any one position I will have dozens of applicants but only space to see 4 or 5 for interview if i can save myself some time by weeding out those who I think won't fit I will do so. Prejuidiced it may be, that is the business we are in.
I am sure you will respond to this post with a sarcastic reply, but before you post please remember that I and the others who have posted on this thread are only trying to give you the benefit of our experience - not trying to pull down your views or opinions, if we didn't care we would not bother to post.
I wish you well with your job hunting and hope you find the transition from student to worker a pleasant one, but if it doesn't happen as soon as you wish try and do some voluntary work both for something to put on your CV and to give you some real life experience - potential employers will look on this with high regard.
Best of luck !!
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KennyR wrote:
the_leander wrote:
(BTW cleaning is perhaps the most soul destroying job one can embark in, you do a great job, only for the people you clean for ruin it day after day after day. But I'm proud I stuck at it for 18 months until I got my nightshift factory job, shame that didn't last heh).
I wonder if that's as soul destroying as filling out form after form of meaningless fluff and getting no interviews, no interest, and only the ocassional "Sorry but we regret to inform..." letter while your health and looks are disappearing fast from having nothing to do all day, and you're heading fast towards the point where your qualifications will mean nothing and soon you'll have to pay back £5000 at £180 a month. That's really quite frustrating, to put it mildly.
Yes it is a lot more soul destroying (try it, you won't like it!), and yes its very frustrating to get "Sorry but we regret to inform you..." style letters. Though I have to say its more frustrating when they simply don't bother with the above style letter.
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KennyR wrote:
Why does everyone think I'm young? For someone trying to get their first job, I'm horribly old (26 is old for someone who's never had a job, trust me). And that counts against me a lot, I'm certain.
you are younger than me, so that makes you "young". not immature, just young.
I know what you mean, however.
After I left graduate school (experiments, don't ask :lol: ) I was told that I was overeducated for the jobs I was looking for. they fully expected me to get bored and leave.
well, duh! So, that is one of the reasons I became an artist. I don't really have the personality for office work. I love working alone. and. being a very disciplined person, I am completely self-motivated. I don't need and in fact hate people telling me what to do. I know EXACTLY what I have to do.
That, in fact, is a requirement for special effects. no one has time to hold your hand, you have to solve the puzzle on your own. and do it as quickly as possible.
the reason I'm going on about this boring aspect of my career is because it takes some effort to find the best place to apply your abilities. I've done lots of different things over the years - all creative and artisitic in some sense, but sometimes not very fun. I've tried to see each as a learning experience as well as an adventure. and because most of the jobs were fairly short, if it was unpleasant i knew it would be over soon.
at this point widen your net. try different things, just for the hell of it. don't look at any one job as THE JOB of the century. Each or any job should just be for trying on. plus this gives you a chance to see if you like the people who work there.
I really do understand how soul destroying this can be, but even great and talented people like Asimov got rejection slips. alot of people are just TOO dumb to appreciate intelligence and quality.
If the world was fair my mother would be rich and bill gates would be in jail.
:-P
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Dude, I knew a woman who was earning 25K(+super) when she was 18. That was 5 years ago! Imagine what she'd be earning now! :-o
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If integrity is a sign of immaturity, then I shall remain immature.
That said, you will have to make comprimises if you want to maintain your integrity. You will have to save up for those rainy days, because they will hit you harder. You may have to settle for contract work or the so called 'survival' jobs. Working for yourself may even be viable, if you have the ability to attract clients. And attracting clients, not building a fancy laboratory, is the issue. (You can secure loans, deal with an inadequately equipment to start out, or work a bit outside of your field.)
I'm guessing that your history is more of an issue. You probably don't have many contacts inside of your industry, and it seems like that is the only reliable way to find a job. The lack of prior work experience may also be an issue (I was working for my university from the first summer onwards, and even that seems inadequate).
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KennyR, have you considered that maybe you won't be able to get a job along this career line? You've got a degree, there are a lot of unrelated jobs that simply ask you to have a degree.
Don't give me a tonne of flack about integrity, you have got to find a job, simple as that. Or stay with mum and dad for the rest of your life.
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There are a lot of people with integrity. The fact that none of them are attracted to this thread (or to politics) should not dissuade you. ;-)
When you are applying for work, there are three types of resumes: honest ones, ones where the applicant over represents themself, and ones where applicants lie. Honest ones don't attract attention, but they will get the odd nibble. Outright lies will probably be detected in the interview and will probably get you fired if anyone finds out. Over representing yourself seems to be the middle ground which everyone is satisfied with. The 'probably's in the outright lies sentences turn into meer possibilities, so it is somehow okay. I don't think it is okay, but I'm clearly in the minority. Then again, my resume may be impressive enough that there is enough nibbling for me to get a job (though I don't see why it would be all that impressive).
I think the problem is in the application process: you are not going to get far if you pull a listing off a job board and submit a resume. At least I have found the miss rate too high. I have had far more success asking people directly, or having someone ask for me.
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@Kenny,
Start up a chemistry forum, and make millions off the ads. ;-)
Well, Kenny, I think you need to go on a trip, get drunk and let your hair down (figuratively speaking). Perhaps Amsterdam would be a good destination? Hang out with Speel? Whatever, you seem to be very frustrated and set on a one way track. You getta jump off before things derail.
- Mike
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Well, another promising placement turned down without even requesting an interview. The most promising in a long while in fact. It only took them a day to refuse it.
Funny how your home changes from a castle to a prison when you've been unemployed for a long time. This is really, really starting to get me down.
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KennyR wrote:
Well, another promising placement turned down without even requesting an interview. The most promising in a long while in fact. It only took them a day to refuse it.
Funny how your home changes from a castle to a prison when you've been unemployed for a long time. This is really, really starting to get me down.
Come to North Carolina, plenty of jobs here, despite what you hear. (unless you're looking for an IT job.) Hell, you could walk right in to one of our evil Pharmecuitical companies and be working tomorrow. ;-)
(Then we can work on converting you into a moneygrubbing Republican ;-))
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Work is work - or why job application forms and CVs are bullsh!t
But people aint people. And IMO, that's the whole thing you have to remember here.
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iamaboringperson wrote:
But people aint people.
:-?
@KennyR
Are you getting outside enough? Trust me, as soon as you have work you'll be so annoyed at yourself if you haven't been making the most of the spare time you have right now. :-)
And try being happy. Being open to it is half the battle. And that's not game-playing if it's genuine. ;-)
Of course you know all this, but you have to believe it too. Or something. Ummm.... Go to sleep, I must.
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This is really, really starting to get me down.
Have you considered applying for jobs outside of your field? For example in a call centre, doing data entry, or maybe in a shop or a bar?
It might not be what you want, but:
a. it'd only be temporary while you find something in your field
b. the experience will look good on your CV & applications
c. it'll provide a bit of a confidence boost in the world of work and will help you with future applications
d. it's easier to find work when in work
e. it'll provide you with some cash
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T_Bone wrote:
Hell, you could walk right in to one of our evil Pharmecuitical companies and be working tomorrow.
No I couldn't. American chemistry standards are fundamentally different from European ones. I'd need to be retrained and re-educated. Why would any company in America do that when they could just hire an American?
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tpg wrote:
Are you getting outside enough?
I go to the jobcentre for ten minutes every two weeks.
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Smithy wrote:
Have you considered applying for jobs outside of your field? For example in a call centre, doing data entry, or maybe in a shop or a bar?
There's no way I would work in a call centre or shop/bar. That's not that I disrespect people who do, but they're like teaching - jobs that clash with me so much that I'd rather starve even than think about them. Talk to people constantly? Not for me.
a. it'd only be temporary while you find something in your field
b. the experience will look good on your CV & applications
c. it'll provide a bit of a confidence boost in the world of work and will help you with future applications
d. it's easier to find work when in work
e. it'll provide you with some cash
I agree with all these apart from b. The experience will make me look less like a total layabout, but it's not relevant to my field and will hardly make me look great compared to other graduates.
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KennyR wrote:
tpg wrote:
Are you getting outside enough?
I go to the jobcentre for ten minutes every two weeks.
So that would be 'no' :-)
I think you need to decide on a different career KennyR. You must have been looking for a job as a lab tech for at least a year and no interviews? Wake up and smell the coffee...
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Why, what other job field do you recommend me to search for for half a year and get no interviews for next?
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There's no way I would work in a call centre or shop/bar. That's not that I disrespect people who do, but they're like teaching - jobs that clash with me so much that I'd rather starve even than think about them. Talk to people constantly? Not for me.
What about a job in data entry, say? You don't have to talk to anyone, the money's reasonable and it's very easy.
I agree with all these apart from b. The experience will make me look less like a total layabout, but it's not relevant to my field and will hardly make me look great compared to other graduates.
I don't think it would. There is a small danger of appearing to de-skill yourself in front of an employer yuo want to work for if you take a job in an another area, but this'll only happen if you play it wrong on your applications. Rather than just listing the (say) data-entry job on CV, you can also mention on your covering letter that you are particularly enthusiastic to become involved in and make it clear that you don't consider your current job's field as a long term thing, although don't say that - say you're keen to apply to the skills you learned at uni. You can also extract a whole load of Good Things out of any job. Even with data-entry you can talk about self-motivation, attention to accuracy/detail, etc, etc..
By the way... you've mentioned working on your CV and application forms in the past - have you got a decent covering letter too? It seems to be "good form" at the moment to write about 3 or 4 paragraphs and pull out the highlights of your CV.
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@ KennyR
I know how you feel, Mate. I'm almost 31 and I've been unemployed for a year now. I've been living off the kindness of friends and if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be here writing this message.
There's nothing wrong at all with having pride. My last two jobs I lost, due to pride. The first one, I was a manager at a pet store and my store manager locked an abandoned cat in a cat carrier for over 18 hours, without access to food, water, or a litter box. Upon discovering the animal, I informed our groomer that she was to bathe the animal (who had defficated all over itself). She refused and I took it upon myself to take care of the animal after we closed the store. Needless to say, some customers found the cat, who I had then placed in a 'cat cage' in the front of the store. They accused me of abusing animals, took the cat from my store and to a vet, who called me and informed me that the cat had a respitory and urinary infection. If I didn't take care of the animal, I would be charged with animal cruelty. I called my manager and confronted him about it, who informed me 'he didn't think it was a problem'. I filed a complaint with the corporate office and was fired two days later.
The last job I had, I was being harassed by my supervisor. I filed a complaint against him and even had proof of the fact. After HIS boss blew me off, I went to human resources and filed a complaint against my supervisor and his boss. I went to lunch one day, only to come back and get fired because I was 'viewing pornography'. Their proof was someone logging into my machine, while I was at lunch who 'found' it. I took legal action against the company and prepared a 30 page deposition against them. What was their proof against me? Nothing. In fact, they didn't even have PICTURES of what they accused me of 'looking' at. The judge decided in favor of me, but guess what? I still lost. I didn't get my job back (not that I wanted it), I didn't get severance pay, I didn't get anything. In fact, all I got out of it was difficulty finding a job out of it. I'm classified as a troublemaker now. Oh, and a month after I was fired, the said supervisor was terminated for sexual harassment.
I have 3 years of college as a commercial artist, but I made the mistake of moving to Texas, where there is NO demand for graphic arts. I have YEARS of IT experience, but I don't have my MCSE, so I'm not considered for hiring. I have tech support experience, but most companies are outsourcing now, thanks to Bush.
The only job I had ANY security in was with the military, but I was a sniper and quite frankly, I don't feel like killing anymore. It leaves a nasty taste in your mouth and it's one that will never go away. I could go back to the Army, but then I get sent to Iraq to do what I told myself I'd never do again.
You have to have hope. It's all we've got. If you lose that, you lose everything and none of us have that much to give.
-M
@MikeyMike
Thanks Mate! For the first time, in a long time, I feel alot better. Thanks for the second wind.
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KennyR wrote:
Why, what other job field do you recommend me to search for for half a year and get no interviews for next?
Fine KennyR. Wallow in your own pit of misery. As an Amiga.org user, I'd prefer it if you didn't do it here.
But to clue you in on something, I'm in much the same position as you are, as are my brothers and sister, but none of us are whining about it on forums. We all have jobs of some sort, and we're all trying to get better employment. I could tell you my sob story, which I can guarantee is ten times worse than yours, but that would be missing the point.
Methuselas wrote:
@MikeyMike
Thanks Mate! For the first time, in a long time, I feel alot better. Thanks for the second wind.
You mean Desiderata? Yeah, I read it from time to time when I need it :-)
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I'm going to apply for a job at my local Spar shop soon. :-D
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There goes the neighbourhood.
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There's no way I would work in a call centre or shop/bar. [...] Talk to people constantly? Not for me.
I worked in a call centre for several months. I had a physics degree, another chap had a math degree, another chap was also doing web design for a local university (he needed the money to support a budding family). I was working with people. The people we called were almost always disrespectful. They were not people.
I agree with all these apart from b. The experience will make me look less like a total layabout, but it's not relevant to my field and will hardly make me look great compared to other graduates.
I never put the call center on my CV. There was no need to because I was employed every calendar year. On the other hand, you mentioned that you haven't held a job. You may need to put down any job experience to show that you are employable.
There is nothing wrong with looking for work outside of your field. I only agreed with you about misrepresenting yourself on a job application.
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Methuselas wrote:
The only job I had ANY security in was with the military, but I was a sniper and quite frankly, I don't feel like killing anymore. It leaves a nasty taste in your mouth and it's one that will never go away. I could go back to the Army, but then I get sent to Iraq to do what I told myself I'd never do again.
WOAH, dude, i have 50 tonnes of respect for you...snipers are cool.......anyway
i've havn't even gone to uni, and i'm going to pass a microsoft certified proffesional exam...to get some easy job with high pay position as a network administrator someplace... :-D
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i have 50 tonnes of respect for you...snipers are cool
I can give people the [color=FF0000]Evil Eye[/color][/b]
:lol:
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sir_inferno wrote:
microsoft certified proffesional exam...
Hmm, you can't spell professional. Just complementing your comments elsewhere. :-D
M$? :-(
Speaking of IT, however... Today was fun, I got to go to an interview and talk about genuinely interesting things (as opposed to pretending I give a sh*t about interest rates.) And they were impressed! Awesome. :-)
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sir_inferno wrote:
i've havn't even gone to uni, and i'm going to pass a microsoft certified proffesional exam..
Yeah, along with everyone else. ;-) But good luck anyway.
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sir_inferno wrote:
WOAH, dude, i have 50 tonnes of respect for you...snipers are cool.......
Kid, you need to re-evaluate that statement. Being a killer is NOT 'cool'. I did a job that I was trained to do and I was good at it. That doesn't make me proud, or a hero or anything. I did what I was told to do. I was a soldier. If I had to do it all over again, I would have never enlisted.
If you want to be proud of someone or have '50 tonnes of respect' for them, then do it for the right reasons. Have respect for the doctors who save lives, or those people who spend their lives fighting abuse against women and children. Have respect for those few who strive to fight racial and sexual intolerances. Have respect for firefighters or police officers, who risk their lives everyday protecting you. Teachers deserve your respect, not me.
Hurting people is easy....
It's the ones that HEAL, Sir Inferno, that deserve respect.
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i've havn't even gone to uni, and i'm going to pass a microsoft certified proffesional exam...to get some easy job with high pay position as a network administrator someplace...
Good luck dude...there are like xx thousand other kids out there with the exact same idea. In reality, you won't get a job as a network administrator, only as consultant or something similar, and getting well paid is not an option. The IT boom imploded 4 years ago...it's on it's way back, but business has learned now. Trust me, I had your attitude and idea 7 years ago.
WOAH, dude, i have 50 tonnes of respect for you...snipers are cool.......anyway
Snipers are not cool. How can you call someone that kills people for a job cool? Snipers are cool on Battlefield 1942. In real life I'm sure they have issues getting back to normal life when they sign out of the military. Think about your statement again, I hope you didn't mean it seriously. Being a sniper must be one of the worst jobs available.
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It's the ones that HEAL, Sir Inferno, that deserve respect.
Aye! T'is far easier to hurt someone than to heal them. Also, it's much nicer to help.
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@Methuselas
That was beautiful, dude. :-)
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whabang wrote:
It's the ones that HEAL, Sir Inferno, that deserve respect.
Aye! T'is far easier to hurt someone than to heal them. Also, it's much nicer to help.
HAHAHAHA This from the guy that wants to use Crom Fayer as a weapon of war. :-D You do know it will instantly kill golems and giants, right?? I don't think that's much of a healing effect, Whabang, much less a helpful one. (I must point out that Viconia was quite the cleric with it, however.)
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that_punk_guy wrote:
@Methuselas
That was beautiful, dude. :-)
I wasn't trying to be beautiful, Chris, though I appreciate the compliment. There's nothing at all beautiful about war. :-?
God, I've turned into SUCH a hippie!!!! :lol:
:roflmao: