Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: DFergATL on May 11, 2004, 03:35:41 PM
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Saw this on an other message borad. Looks cool, not very fast though. It looks like someone might have gotten MorphOS to at least try to load on it, not sure how successful they were. http://nogfx.free.fr/peg.jpg I am sure someone will get Amgia OS 4.0 to boot on it eventually. Anyway I thought it was interesting and I also thought others might find it interesting.
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Which brings up another question: has anybody tried PPC OSes other than Linux and Mac OS on Mac-on-Linux?
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I think this is terrible news for the Amiga community. The Amiga community is so small that the AmigaOne and Pegasos need every sale they can get; every sale matters. By eliminating the need for such hardware to run AmigaOS or MorphOS, it simply opens up the market to piracy from outside the community - hardware sales decrease, driving up prices, and CD images of OS4 and MorphOS find their way to P2P clients.
Soon enough, there could be people looking for AmIGa ROmZ - not a good thing.
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I tried installing Mac OS X 10.2 directly. It booted from the .iso image and initializes the PCI and USB devices, then autodiskmounts and fails with error "Failure: DiskArbStart() -> 1102" (Anyone know what that means?
It looked promising at first, still give it time!
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Well, I was under the impression that AmigaOS needed some sort of activation key which was stored in the AmigaOne ROM. Either way, PearPC isn't going to entice people to use AmigaOS or MorphOS on a Wintel box. At present, the performance on a high end Wintel would be comparable to a 60 MHz 601 (or a PowerMac 6100) -- according to the to the PearPC website. The only real threat would be from something like Mac-on-Linux, which would only run on a PowerPC anyhow.
So ask yourself two questions on the piracy front: is piracy of legacy Amiga ROMs and OSes a problem? I would venture that the answer is no, and I say that for a couple of reasons: there is a vocal oppositions against piracy in the Amiga community. This is unlike other platforms which are comparably obsolete where people say piracy is bad, wink, wink. It is also unlike slightly more obsolete platforms where piracy is the norm. You also have a vendor who was good enough, or desparate enough, to license their ROMs and OSes for use in emulation. Would something like PearPC or MOL change this. It certainly wouldn't change the former, and selling their OS independent of hardware would be a continuation of the latter.
Would emulation or virtual machines be a burdern to the vendors or AmigaOS or MorphOS? Any answer to that question would be pure spectulation, but my speculative answer would be yes. My reasoning is simple: the people who are genuinely interested in using these operating systems are probably willing to pay the price for the hardware, and there are margins to be made off of hardware.
Would you loose potential, genuinely interested users? Sure you would! I'll use myself as an example: I'm tired of the status quo in operating systems. They are slow and bloated, which doesn't fit my philosophy. Would I be willing to dump serious money into an alternative? I already do (I already run Apple hardware). Am I willing to do so sight unseen? Absolutely not. It looks like an AmigaOne G4 would cost over $1000 Canadian. If I don't like the OS, I would loose a considerable amount of money. On the other hand, if it was a $200 OS I would be much more likely to buy it sight unseen. I am desparate for something better than what I have after all. Once I know that I like it, and am confident that I'll use it for a couple of years, maybe then I'll buy the hardware. (Which I would consider to be a step backwards in portability and power consumption in the first place.) Of course, a few odd ball users such as myself may not make the OS only route a smart option. (I don't even believe that it would be a smart route for Apple.)
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About the only real thing I like about it is that it might be possiable to, at some point, try Amgia OS 4.0 or MorphOS without having to buy the hardware. That is if one could buy just the OS. I am interested in OS 4.0 but I am not willing to spend upwards of $1000 dollars on the hardware necessary to put a system together, motherboard, processor, memory, graphics card, case, power supply. That is an expensive risk for me. I can't just toss that type of money around. That is why I don't have an A1. Now if I could give the OS a "test run" even if it is slow. I could see if I liked it, if it would do the things I need etc. If it does then you bet I would spend the money to be able to run on native software. One thing they could do about illeagle copies is to require a dongle if the OS is not booted on "native" hardware. But that would be up to them. We all know that if it can be done someone will get OS 4.0 to work in emulation at sometime. If for no other reason than to say that it can be done. It doesn't have to be a real "Bad" thing for Amiga. Like I said it would be a lot eaiser to buy just the OS and give it a trial, even if the emulation was slow. Then decide if I want to buy the hardware. But, I would only do this if the OS was avaliable to buy, I would not "download" it. As it is I don't think I will ever get an other Amiga. I have heard that the price will never come down and might even go up. Over $700 for a motherbord running a G3, no memory, no graphics, no sound, no case, no powersupply. I understand that PPC has many, many advantages but it is also very, very expensive. Who would wan't to buy an G3 Amiga for alomst as much money then it would cost them to get an Apple? Who are they kidding??
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The dongle code present in the AmigaOne isn't infallible (nothing is). It's only a matter of time before someone cracks it, whether the intentions be "good" (OS4/MOS on Peg/A1) or malicious (d00d! l33t h4x0r g33k5).
From what I understand, OS4 won't be available in a standalone package (Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC versions excepted), only through the purchase of an AmigaOne. It can't be good if that version leaks out onto the internet.
How many "test drivers" does it take before we have a piracy problem on our hands? And while there might be a small boost in sales for the Cyberstorm/Blizzard version, net Peg/A1 hardware sales will suffer: x86 chips are getting faster and faster, and this emulation will get faster as development continues. Therefore, this emulator could eventually become a hardware replacement solution in software. We're really in for it then.
I'd prefer it if work on getting MOS/OS4 booting under emulation was halted until the market "recovers," but if KMOS/Hyperion/Genesi were to work with the developers of this emulator to create a low-price MOS/OS4 "demo" for x86 machines, that would be kinda cool.
The Amiga market is too small to be taking chances with.
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Matt: I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but the Amiga is not going to recover. There will be no recovery because very few people know that alternatives to those Intel driven beige boxes exist. A few people have heard about Apple and Linux, but they don't know what they are or how to obtain them. If Amiga has any brand recognition, it is historic. Very few people know that there is an update OS on the other side of the event horizion. Very few people know about the AmigaOS alikes, like AROS or MorphOS. (Are there others which I should be aware of?)
Of course that doesn't mean that the Amiga is dead. If people are willing to pay enough for it, it can hang on as some sort of fringe system. That bit about paying enough for it is why I think selling the OS separate of the hardware is suicidal. It would mean one less revenue source. It also means that piracy is very unlikey. Consider the sheer numbers of people who pirate Solaris, IRIX, AIX, and such.
The OS wars ended a long time ago. Microsoft won, and everyone else lost. No one is going to recover because there is too much money invested in Microsoft software (and Intel hardware). The only way that is going to change is when a new technology replaces the PC.
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@macto
Note that Sun offers free Solaris X86 download for personal use (grass roots initiative). Sun’s model is to sell Sun related services which is based around its desktop ecosystem.
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Macto,
I don't think "the OS wars ended a long time ago", in my opinion they are still going on.
Microsoft are definitely in the best position with their OS running on over 90% of PC's around the world, but they haven't won by a long shot. Their recent advertising campaign against Linux is proof of the pudding that they are still fighting the battle. The fact that Linux now has major computer shows aimed at business computing, and that companies such as IBM, Novell, Red Hat, HP and Sun (amongst others) are all developing for the platform suggests otherwise. The UK government is doing research into the Open Source OS (and Open Source in general) and is implementing the Sun Java Desktop into certain government sectors. China is also looking for alternative OS's to run on their PC's as their economy grows. I'm sure there are many more examples of the switch from Windows.
The fact that too much money is invested into Microsoft's OS and software *is* proving to be a problem. It's not the be-all and end-all solution to OS dominance as you suggest. Companies always want to cut costs and with upgrade and security patches costing business's money it's no wonder they're looking into alternatives.
The point I'm trying to make is that it's not all over. What lies in store for the Amiga and alternative OS's I cannot predict, but if just one person can think differently and smartly, then there's always a chance. I mean look where Linux is today....
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The OS wars ended a long time ago. Microsoft won, and everyone else lost. No one is going to recover because there is too much money invested in Microsoft software (and Intel hardware). The only way that is going to change is when a new technology replaces the PC.
the fat lady has not sung!
way too many people (and companies) are moving over to linux. windows is something people put up with until they realize there are other things out there.
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Please don't construe my words as support for Microsoft. I don't like them. I even refuse to use their products at home, where I make the decisions, and try to avoid it outside of the home, where the decisions of others are thrust upon me. That said, I am a bit of a pessimist as far as the future of the industry is concerned. I have long since realised that the only way I'm going to survive in the computer world is to be an island upon himself. Fortunately, there are a few other islands out there to chat with. :-D
As for the impending threat of Linux, Microsoft is doing their best to head it off. They will probably have much success. The basic problem is recovering your data once it has been locked up by a particular vendor. It turns out to be very costly, and the industry doesn't go through that type of shift very often. None of this means that Linux can be destroyed. Seeming as the system is out there with the source code, it will continue to adapt to new technologies for decades to come. That is the heritage of Unix, which has survived and evolved for some 35 years now. But survival is different from capturing a healthy chunk of the market.
But the question we should be asking ourselves is will the Amiga, or an Amiga clone survive? Unix systems are nice, but I'm rather distressed that the only major surviving operating systems are based on some version of Unix. Ignoring Windows, of course. Who really cares about Windows. ;-)
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@ macto
I don't expect the Amiga to "recover" to its former position, but I'd hate to see the best chance the Amiga has had in a decade go up in smoke due to piracy.
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I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but the Amiga is not going to recover
Of course that doesn't mean that the Amiga is dead
Uh, OK :hat:
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If it isn't dead and isn't recovering, it just means that it is very ill. Or perphaps the illness analogy is a bad one. I'm simply saying that things aren't going to get much better.
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Piracy wont finish off the Amiga or kill the Pegasos..lack of software will.
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In terms of the sales and success of OS4 and future Amiga software, does it really matter whether it's running on an Intel/AMD box under emulation or running on dedicated AmigaOne or Pegasos motherboards?
You just need to look at how WinUAE has renewed and is sustaining an interest in the classic Amiga to see that emulation isn't a bad thing. Many people like myself will have purchased OS3.9 to run purely under WinUAE.
If PearPC allows me to enjoy the new AmigaOS and hopefully the software titles which will follow, without having to pay for extortionately priced hardware, then it's fine by me! :-)
Piracy wont finish off the Amiga or kill the Pegasos..lack of software will.
Exactly. And whether that software runs on purpose-built hardware or under emulation, is irrelevant. Sales will be unaffected.
Just my own opinions! :-)
Steve.
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Exactly. And whether that software runs on purpose-built hardware or under emulation, is irrelevant. Sales will be unaffected.
The problem is that you won't be able to buy AmigaOs4 or Morphos without the Hardware, so there's no legal way of running these in emulation.
In my opinion, there's no reason for a ppc amiga emulation. If somebody wants to run classic amiga programs he can do this with uae and its 1000 times faster than this ppc emu. And you don't need a ppc amiga emu to play quake1+2 or wipeout on a x86 box.
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You just need to look at how WinUAE has renewed and is sustaining an interest in the classic Amiga to see that emulation isn't a bad thing. Many people like myself will have purchased OS3.9 to run purely under WinUAE.
Unlike the classic Amiga hardware, however, The A1 and Pegasos are in production - sales matter. By the time Amiga Forever, which is licensed, hit the scene, stocks of Classic Amigas were long gone.
The problem is that you won't be able to buy AmigaOs4 or Morphos without the Hardware, so there's no legal way of running these in emulation.
Exactly!
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There is no fear of piracy and OS4/MOS never sell A1/Peg enough alone. And if it is more practical to run PPC OS in x86 box using PPC emulator rather than using real PPC, hell, why not?
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The problem is that you won't be able to buy AmigaOs4 or Morphos without the Hardware
Where's the logic in that decision? To limit sales? I can hear the nails going in the lid of OS4's coffin already.
so there's no legal way of running these in emulation.
Well... if there isn't a legal way...
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rayt wrote:
Exactly. And whether that software runs on purpose-built hardware or under emulation, is irrelevant. Sales will be unaffected.
The problem is that you won't be able to buy AmigaOs4 or Morphos without the Hardware, so there's no legal way of running these in emulation.
In my opinion, there's no reason for a ppc amiga emulation. If somebody wants to run classic amiga programs he can do this with uae and its 1000 times faster than this ppc emu. And you don't need a ppc amiga emu to play quake1+2 or wipeout on a x86 box.
Apparently we will be able to buy OS4 for CSPPC/BPPC so if the UAE coders merged the PearPPC source into UAE then in theory, it would be possible to legally buy and emulate OS4 on x86.
JIT Emulation of PPC on a 3000Mhz x86 CPU would be approximately equivalent to a 1200 MHz emulated G3 CPU using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU. This is faster than any available classic Amiga PPC accelerater. I would definately buy OS4 if it did run under UAE on x86. Until then i'll stick with my Pegasos.
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JIT Emulation of PPC on a 3000Mhz x86 CPU would be approximately equivalent to a 1200 MHz emulated G3 CPU using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU.
WHOA!!!! Where did you get that figure?? The real author says it's about 500x slower on a cycle-for-cycle basis. That seems to me to be quite an exaggeration.
On my 3ghz P4, I got a somewhat usable Mac OSX emulation, yet quite slow (at least compared to THAT figure!). Probably about what I'd expect from an early (unsupported) PowerMac. Maybe a 75-100mhz G3 emulation. (It took about 2.5 hours to install Mac OSX 10.3 Panther!) Still, this would put the emulation at a level with some of the slower Cyberstorm PPC and Blizzard PPC cards.... and probably have better video support. The video and IO of PearPC seem quite fast. It's the processor emulation core that's the bottleneck... But still, I'm impressed for a 0.1 beta. :-)
I'm hoping that there's some people who want to work this into UAE! That would be awesome. :-) I've never actually owned a real PPC Amiga...
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Ilwrath wrote:
JIT Emulation of PPC on a 3000Mhz x86 CPU would be approximately equivalent to a 1200 MHz emulated G3 CPU using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU.
WHOA!!!! Where did you get that figure?? The real author says it's about 500x slower on a cycle-for-cycle basis. That seems to me to be quite an exaggeration.
On my 3ghz P4, I got a somewhat usable Mac OSX emulation, yet quite slow (at least compared to THAT figure!). Probably about what I'd expect from an early (unsupported) PowerMac. Maybe a 75-100mhz G3 emulation. (It took about 2.5 hours to install Mac OSX 10.3 Panther!) Still, this would put the emulation at a level with some of the slower Cyberstorm PPC and Blizzard PPC cards.... and probably have better video support. The video and IO of PearPC seem quite fast. It's the processor emulation core that's the bottleneck... But still, I'm impressed for a 0.1 beta. :-)
I'm hoping that there's some people who want to work this into UAE! That would be awesome. :-) I've never actually owned a real PPC Amiga...
It says in the docs that it's about 40% slower. 40% of 3000 is 1200. :)
Even at 75-100 Mhz it would still be usuable for Warp/PowerUP stuff I would imagine.
Maybe if it was compiled for AMD64 native, it would be a lot faster?
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JIT Emulation of PPC on a 3000Mhz x86 CPU would be approximately equivalent to a 1200 MHz emulated G3 CPU using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU.
This can be achieved when you don't need to emulate the CPU i.e. emulator like ShapeShifter for PPC. 1 GHz Amiga will emulate 600MHz Mac, which is quite acceptable me thinks.
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[...]using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU.
This can be achieved when you don't need to emulate the CPU [...]
This makes sense... Like I said, the video and IO portion seems to work fairly quickly. So, an unsupported PowerPC platform can run OSX at 40% slower than a real Mac of the same clock runs it. That's good to know. So, an A1 or Pegasos could use this and get quite a usable Mac emulation. (Usable is a word I've never heard MoL described as. I can't pass judgement on it myself, though, as I don't have a fast enough PPC to try it.)
But, back to PearPC.... If you use the processor emulation, you certainly get no where near losing only 40%. In fact, I don't think a PPC emulation is even possible to that tight of performance... I mean, think about it. That's a lot tighter than any 680x0 emulation routines, and how much simpler of a processor is the 680x0 compared to a G3....
Anyhow, I had only read the x86 docs on PearPC, which was why I questioned the origins of that 40% figure. ;-)
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PearPC's long term speed problems will probably lie with the PPC MMU and the prophensity for PPC programs to use Big Endien Data.
The MMU problem wil be solved in time, but learning how PPC software tens to use the MMU, the Byte ordering problem won't be solved until the x86 grows a big endien mode/instructions.
All in all I expect this Emulator to get quite a bit faster, I see no reason to think that 70% of native speed is an unobtainable figure :-D
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bloodline wrote:
PearPC's long term speed problems will probably lie with the PPC MMU and the prophensity for PPC programs to use Big Endien Data.
The MMU problem wil be solved in time, but learning how PPC software tens to use the MMU, the Byte ordering problem won't be solved until the x86 grows a big endien mode/instructions.
All in all I expect this Emulator to get quite a bit faster, I see no reason to think that 70% of native speed is an unobtainable figure :-D
And when it does hit 70%, please someone bang the code into AROS! :-)
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Matt_H wrote:
I think this is terrible news for the Amiga community. The Amiga community is so small that the AmigaOne and Pegasos need every sale they can get; every sale matters. By eliminating the need for such hardware to run AmigaOS or MorphOS, it simply opens up the market to piracy from outside the community - hardware sales decrease, driving up prices, and CD images of OS4 and MorphOS find their way to P2P clients.
And the Pegasos is bad because it stops people buying AmigaOnes, and the AmigaOne is bad because it stops people buying A4000s and other Amiga hardware. Why is someone using a PC to run AmigaOS "outside the community", and someone using a Pegasos or AmigaOne "inside the community"? All you're doing is arbitrarily dividing up the market so that your preferred solution counts as being a "True Amigan", and everyone else are evil pirates who don't add anything to the Amiga market or community.
Let's look at the issues. Whilst it is true that it is useful if Hyperion can make money from hardware (as Apple do), firstly it's likely that emulation will be far below native performance. Anyone serious about spending hundreds of pounds on a G4 Amiga isn't going to settle for much slower performance. Do you think this emulator will be terrible news for the Mac community? On the other hand, people like me who have an interest, but no desire to buy new hardware, will buy an extra copy of OS4.
One thing I have wondered - will Hyperion or KMOS or whoever receive money from the AmigaOne profits? If not, then unlike with Apple, the hardware argument is a non-issue. I don't care for Eyetech anymore than I'd listen to the argument that we should worry about sales of classic Amiga hardware. My only worry is that Hyperion are limiting themselves to running on a single motherboard, so there are obvious problems if Eyetech run into trouble.
You've also got to take into account the knock on effect of having extra Amiga users in the market - that's a bigger market for software developers, and also possible more developers who are using the emulators.
And oh look, it's the "only PC users are pirates" tired old myth again.
Soon enough, there could be people looking for AmIGa ROmZ - not a good thing.
Aside from being annoying on some emulation forums, why is this "terrible news"?
I'm not saying whether the sorts of people who download old A500 games are right or wrong to do so, but this has nothing to do with the Amiga today.
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rayt wrote:
The problem is that you won't be able to buy AmigaOs4 or Morphos without the Hardware, so there's no legal way of running these in emulation.
What happened to the plans for users with PPC A1200/4000s? Have these been dropped?
In my opinion, there's no reason for a ppc amiga emulation. If somebody wants to run classic amiga programs he can do this with uae and its 1000 times faster than this ppc emu.
There's not a great need right now, but AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS aren't available on 68k, so if these end up having any future, then emulation would be worthwhile.
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[Selling software with hardware]
StevenJGore: Where's the logic in that decision? To limit sales? I can hear the nails going in the lid of OS4's coffin already.
Yeah, such an old fashioned business tactic. I've worked for a small photo business, and worked with many purpose-built systems. For $5,000, they'll sell you their software, and a cheap, underpowered workstation with a hardware key and no way to upgrade it on your own. You know what happens to companies that do that?
They ALL go out of business! Really. Keep in mind that these proprietary workstations are in the same boat as AmigaOne: they are strictly low-volume production (in the hundreds to maybe a thousand).
Emulation may be the only way non-Amiga fans ever get a chance to see the OS in action, but even that's not possible without some illegal key cracker. I know I would like to see OS4 up-close, but I'm not going to flirt with spending $800+ just to see what it's like, only to run cheesy C programs which have been done to death on Windows or Java apps I could easily run on the PC, then have to use AmiNet to find public domain software instead of an official, central resource for Amiga developers. I hope Hyperion/KMOS/Whoever at least keeps a good database of Amiga developers and tools, rather than just expect people to spread the word through their homepages. www.amigadev.net is a joke. Besides, that site is for AmigaDE, not OS4, and DE is about as dead as they come, at least in terms of PR.
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I think the solution is for the makes of os 4 to sell a version of amiga os 4 packed with an ppc emulator for the the X86 the could even charge extra for packing it with an open source emulator. Most OS's sell for about $100 us ill would pay $125-150 for them combined.
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This sort of thing has been argued over in the Mac community a thousand times over (in the guise of Mac clone vendors and an x86 based Mac).
The argument reduces to this: it costs a lot to develop an operating system. If you have a limited market, then you have to recoup the costs by charging a lot of money for the operating system. But people don't want to pay serious sums of money for the operating system. So how do they recoup the costs? Well, they bundle it to hardware and make some of the money there.
Other people argue that the platform will gain an astounding amount of support if users didn't have to pay huge globs of money just to try it. Well, it isn't necessarily so: Linux and several BSD variants are free and they can only gain a few percent of the user base. Some may argue that they are hard to use. Then what of BeOS, which tried a fee then free model. It was pretty easy to use. What of OS/2, which used a fee model? OS/2 was Windows 95 done right (and done before Windows 95). IBM had very little success.
Now chances are that the Amiga is going to loose me as a user because of the OS and hardware model, but that doesn't mean that their business decision is wrong. It simply means that their business decision cannot satisfy everybody.
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mdma wrote:
JIT Emulation of PPC on a 3000Mhz x86 CPU would be approximately equivalent to a 1200 MHz emulated G3 CPU using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU. This is faster than any available classic Amiga PPC accelerater.
Isn't it 40 times slower and NOT 40% slower? :-?
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Bodie wrote:
mdma wrote:
JIT Emulation of PPC on a 3000Mhz x86 CPU would be approximately equivalent to a 1200 MHz emulated G3 CPU using the PearPC code, as it's supposed to be 40% slower than the host CPU. This is faster than any available classic Amiga PPC accelerater.
Isn't it 40 times slower and NOT 40% slower? :-?
So that'd be 75 Mhz then! :-)
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@Ilwrath
Note that "PearPC 0.3 Pre" recomplied for Pentium IV is available from http://richardgoodwin.com/pearpc/
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@macto
Compared to Win95/NT4.0, ~1995 era OS/2 Warp’s GUI is ugly in my POV(one of many issues***). I didn’t like BeOS due to the initial lack of software, legacy support and GUI issues i.e. BeOS didn't impress me at all.
MacOS X has most of the Win32 critical applications and games for a real alternative OS. The barrier to MacOS X is likely be to hardware issues i.e. lack of secondary HW sources("out of the box"*) and uncompetitive mainstream** HW prices (not factoring X86 premium product lines).
*MOL on PPC clone issue is unacceptable in mainstream.
**Price points (to illustrate an example), 2 Ghz AMD CPU or Intel PIV 2.8/3.0Ghz and motherboards i.e. cheap/barebone VIA, NVIDIA and SIS based.
***Early issues with Win16.
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Man, BeOS was, is and always will be cool. For anyone who doesn't know, a non-profit organization is being formed to aid the development of OpenBeOS. There's also a new and improved web site on the way, but for now, check out OpenBeOS.org (http://openbeos.org/).
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OS purists arguing that tying an OS to any specific hardware will necessarily limit any alternative OS's success seems to be a recurring theme :-)
Here we see the argument applied to Mac OSX / Mac HW. The argument could equally be applied to the A1 / OS4.0 conundrum.
Whats wrong with a "run anywhere" licence based model? Why must it degrade in to a monopoly on proprietary HW?
If HW is not competitive it should become obsolete as the market dictates. It shouldnt use any OS to justify its existence.
Tying an OS to under-developed uncompetitve HW is like tying a concrete weight to an Olympic swimmer.
What do you guys think?