Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: mauma on April 04, 2004, 12:31:33 PM
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Hi everybody,
I know this issue is discussed before.
But I think that AROS is the best choice of all.
How do you guys think about this?
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I personally prefer OS4, though I can definitely see the advantages of MOS (ie it's out there). AROS isn't as developed as the other two, though it's got potential, and if the others die then AROS will definitely survive. It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens to AROS when they've finished implementing all the OS3.x APIs - they could start to do very interesting things.
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Since none of them is complete yet, who knows?
But AROS has several advantages:
1.Opensource, its not dependant on the financial status of any company
2. Cheap x86 hardware
3.Portable to multiple platforms 68k,PPC,Arm...
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Im totaly biased but ill awnser anyways ;) im a MOS user but im also part of the AROS dev team! MOS is without a doubt nr 1 NOW but in time i belive AROS will be the winner of the 3 unless OS4/MOS team suddenly gets LOADS of money/sales (not likely im afraid).
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mauma wrote:
I think that AROS is the best choice of all.
How do you guys think about this?
I like AROS because it's free, the hardware's cheap, and it's a genuine community effort so in using it I don't have to feel like I'm choosing sides or supporting crooks.
I encourage others to come to their own logical conclusions and to respect other people's choices because that's the only way to move forwards.
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AROS...nice but incomplete yet.
MOS,nice,working and useful!
OS4....mmhh....if you want to wait a lot of years before the relase...this is the right OS!
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AROS still has some way to go before convincing me that it will ever be viable as a primary daily use platform. Development will have to pick up considerably IMHO because that is its major drawback.
AmigaOS4 and MorphOS only run on hardware which I will never own, so they are of no interest to me at present.
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Hmm, yet another one of these threads...
OS4 can't be easily compared since it isn't particularly available to compare, as it is still in development, AROS can only run AmigaOS/x86 binaries, and so MOS kind of wins by default at the moment.
I haven't seen MOS in action, but anyway. I've used both AROS and OS4 for very short periods, and they seemed like they've made good starts.
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mauma wrote:
Hi everybody,
I know this issue is discussed before.
But I think that AROS is the best choice of all.
How do you guys think about this?
Since Amithlon isn't in the running, AROS is the only choice.
I still plan on having an A1 and a peg3, but having to hope a hardware company is able to stick around makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
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I'm afraid AROS is of no interest to me, for sort of the same reasons bhogget stated for himself. I'm not interested in x86 hardware, and my PPC hardware already has MOS, already does everything I'd expect from AROS. AROS right now is an OS with all the disadvantages of AmigaOS, with the added complication that it runs a thousandth of the software. Having to recompile everything when very little Amiga software was actually open source is a killer.
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T_Bone wrote:
I still plan on having an A1 and a peg3, but having to hope a hardware company is able to stick around makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
That's my thinking. If Apple can't persuade me to buy a Mac, despite their resources and proven quality, Eyetech and bPlan have no chance.
I'd rather stick to hardware I can replace at the drop of a hat with minimal disruption to my daily use.
However, that's OT here. :-P
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KennyR wrote:
AROS right now is an OS with all the disadvantages of AmigaOS, with the added complication that it runs a thousandth of the software. Having to recompile everything when very little Amiga software was actually open source is a killer.
Agreed. That's AROS' biggest hurdle, but unfortunately whenever I raised the point in the past it has been dismissed as irrelevant or invalid. That doesn't bode well for it being seriously addressed any time soon.
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but unfortunately whenever I raised the point in the past it has been dismissed as irrelevant or invalid.
It is, indeed. No offence intended, of course.
The reason it's irrelevant is that it's never been AROS' aim to be able to run AmigaOS binaries on foreign HW, and it's not going to be any time soon.
It's sort of invalid, of course, for the same reason: although I understand that you need to run AmigaOS 68k sw, AROS' goal has never been to do that on other processors than 68k's.
That doesn't bode well for it being seriously addressed any time soon.
I'd say the priority right now is to get the OS as complete as possible, apps come after. We're not in a hurry, we don't expect people to chose AROS right now, we have no schedule we need to stick at. That's the fun part. For us, of course :-)
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@Fabio
You are of course quite right to choose your own aims.
However, my earlier point stands: AROS is not an alternative to AOS4 or MOS or Linux or Windows, and won't be for the foreseeable future. From purely a users' point of view, an OS without applications is pointless.
It's why BeOS failed, and why QNX is only used by a very tiny community of geeks and embedded application developers.
That's not a criticism, but it is reality. AROS hype far outweighs its usefulness.
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I like AROS because it's free, the hardware's cheap, and it's a genuine community effort so in using it I don't have to feel like I'm choosing sides or supporting crooks.
Perfectly put. AROS and Amithlon is all i am interested in and both run on the hardware i choose at a price i am happy paying.
As for OS4/MOS - I will not support any Amiga (related) companies ever again. they are about as trustworthy as a theif carring a bag with "SWAG" written on it.
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However, my earlier point stands: AROS is not an alternative to AOS4 or MOS or Linux or Windows, and won't be for the foreseeable future. From purely a users' point of view, an OS without applications is pointless.
Your earlier point stands only in your view, as other posts in this thread prove: for as much as it may sound nonsensical to you, some people think AROS is an alternative. Applications will come, people will port them, will build them from scratch, and so on. What it takes is just a little of confidence in the project itself, people just need to get used to the "Open Source" approach, and I'm sure as soon as TCP/IP is there, together with FAT32 support, people will start using AROS on a more daily basis: developers first, porting their preferred network applications, the simpler first (ssh, telnet, wget, and so on), then the more complicated ones (web browsers... even Mozilla, you never know!), then everything will come by itself.
We don't need to have transparent 68k compatibility. It's impossible to have it anyway, on x86, without resorting to the Amithlon approach, which, quite frankly, is not the right approach for an OS. And Bernd will agree with me on this.
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@Fabio
I was not really alluding to transparent 68k emulation etc., or to any Amithlon comparisons.
I was simply looking at AROS in a dispassionate way. I know you've always said that applications will come, but for me (and this thread does ask for personal opinions) that approach offers no confidence in the project at all.
Mindless optimism is fine, but it carries no weight with me. That's why I regard AROS as overhyped and overrated. Amiga applications are mostly closed source, and persuading developers to do specific AROS ports is a bit like relying on a future lottery win. You need to attract users to attract developers, or else stay a hobby project for a tiny number of hobbyist geeks. It's a hurdle you will have to face, and pretending it doesn't exist makes me believe you will never get over it.
No offense intended, of course.
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I was simply looking at AROS in a dispassionate way. I know you've always said that applications will come, but for me (and this thread does ask for personal opinions) that approach offers no confidence in the project at all.
Fine with me, but then I'd be curious to know which approach would offer you confidence in the project. Because, you see, by the sound of your words it seems like there's no way out of here: AROS is doomed, in your view, just because it's AROS.
But feel free to correct my interpretation of your words.
Mindless optimism is fine,
That's your mistake: you seem to think that the only possible way to look at things is yours, everyone else that has another view of the situation is culrpit of "mindless optimism". Don't worry, I'm not offended, but I hope you are able to see the point I'm making.
but it carries no weight with me.
As said, it's fine with me, we're not trying to convince you of anything.
That's why I regard AROS as overhyped and overrated.
So you think that everyone who thinks AROS is, or will be, a good alternative has gone mad?
Amiga applications are mostly closed source, and persuading developers to do specific AROS ports is a bit like relying on a future lottery win. You need to attract users to attract developers, or else stay a hobby project for a tiny number of hobbyist geeks. It's a hurdle you will have to face, and pretending it doesn't exist makes me believe you will never get over it.
So, basically, all you're saying is that any new OS is doomed from the start, because of course new OSs, without applications by definition, can't have users, and without users there cannot be developers, and thus the OS is doomed to failure.
quite frankly, that's an highly semplicistic way to look at things. Look, look at aros-exec.org, look at the number of members and the traffic: I was not expecting that much success, Bill, I was telling Ola and Nicolas (4play and mendoza) that in my opinion it was too early for such a project, that every other attempt at building a community site failed miserably (and for a reason). I've been proven wrong.
So, if even I, with my "mindless optimism", to use your words, can have my negative moments that get proven wrong, then perhaps it's not as dark as you make it look.
But I'm open to suggestions, and constructive criticism: I'm not saying AROS is the best choice, I myself tell people that they cannot expect anything special from AROS right now, but despite my warnings people seem to like AROS, we've even gotten a successful community site, heck! That must mean something. However, as said, I'm open to criticism, so, what would you expect from an effort like AROS, Bill?
No offense intended, of course.
No offence taken, of course.
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@Fabio
Regarding applications, what I describe as "mindless optimism" is the expectation that people will just develop for it and port for it because it is like AmigaOS, despite the fact that there aren't any users and there is no visible market.
When I ask "why?", the answer seems to be "they just will, you'll see".
As for the community, much of it is the result of the hype. How many people on aros-exec.org use it or develop for it on a daily basis? 10? 20? 100? Less? Most of the AROS enthusiasts are there because of what they want AROS to become rather than what it is likely to be any time soon.
I don't have a ready answer for you, but yes, following the current priorities I do believe AROS is doomed. Or at least doomed to linger indefnitely on the verge of being a serious OS, but never quite getting there.
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Well for me I made the MOS choice after a long long thought process. I've had an Amiga as long as I can remember. This just feels more like an Amiga to me and I can still run all the Amiga Software I did on my A3000, but at greater speeds and in more cases even more stable! OS4 will have a hard time keeping up I think, that and the fact it keeps getting sold off turned me away from it.
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Regarding applications, what I describe as "mindless optimism" is the expectation that people will just develop for it and port for it because it is like AmigaOS, despite the fact that there aren't any users and there is no visible market.
Who told you that? No one said "people will code for it because it's AmigaOS", I certainly have not. I just said that applications will come, either from the core AROS devs, or from people who like it and find it fun to code on AROS and for AROS.
Hey, this is how AROS got where it is now, why should this process suddendly stop?
When I ask "why?", the answer seems to be "they just will, you'll see".
Apart from the fact you're oversimplifying the kind of answer you get, what is wrong about that answer? Why should, say, a web browser never appear, for instance? Hey, there's a whole OS there, do you really think porting applications is that difficult?
It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. Of course, given AROS doesn't lose its momentum, and I don't see this unfortunate event happening any time soon.
As for the community, much of it is the result of the hype.
Hype coming from whom? No one is preaching the AROS verb, you don't see me or any other AROS devs going around saying "come to us, we are the best ones", people talk about AROS because they like it, developers join the team because they like it, people contribute in whatever way they want, because they like it.
Face it, Bill, AROS is here to stay, and it'll become what the community wants it to become.
How many people on aros-exec.org use it or develop for it on a daily basis? 10? 20? 100? Less? Most of the AROS enthusiasts are there because of what they want AROS to become rather than what it is likely to be any time soon.
So? What's your point? They are free to make AROS become what they want it to become. Did you miss, by any chance, that AROS is Open Source? Did you miss, by any chance, that even you can contribute to AROS? If you want AROS to become something, then make it happen! In the end, Bill, what matters is what you want. And you don't seem to be able to tell me what you want, from AROS.
I don't have a ready answer for you, but yes, following the current priorities I do believe AROS is doomed.
Perhaps you didn't notice, but I've asked you to, please, tell me what do you think are the right priorities. Still waiting for an answer...
Or at least doomed to linger indefnitely on the verge of being a serious OS, but never quite getting there.
Then so be it. Honestly, Bill, who gives a damn? :-) If that is what AROS will become, it just means that that is what you, and the rest of the community, wanted it to become. And then, does it matter?
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Team
Just for the record.
I don't use AROS, nor develop or code for it.
I still love it.
What most attracts me to it is that it is a genuine community effort.
I will still download builds form time to time to see where it's at and may even have a crack at porting it to my peg at some time (assuming I have no life and want to go completely insane!!!).
If a good stable version of UAE were ported then you would be able to run the Amiga Binaries anyway so I don't understand what the issues with applications are. Emulation is slower and "bad" but it's MUCH better than nothing.
AROS is not starting from ground Zero as some have indicated.
It has a working kernel and a significant proportion of the requirements of an OS met and it does have some apps ported already. With UAE it could also have a significant repository of applications.
Go AROS, I loves Ya
Regards
Darren
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Porting to Pegasos is already in the works (Genesi sponsored with a free Pegasos1) and AROS is far from ground zero now (did you know your already using parts of AROS through your precious MorphOS? :).
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bhoggett wrote:
KennyR wrote:
AROS right now is an OS with all the disadvantages of AmigaOS, with the added complication that it runs a thousandth of the software. Having to recompile everything when very little Amiga software was actually open source is a killer.
Agreed. That's AROS' biggest hurdle, but unfortunately whenever I raised the point in the past it has been dismissed as irrelevant or invalid. That doesn't bode well for it being seriously addressed any time soon.
It's not irrelevant or invalid, there's just not much that can be done about it, other than changing the way things are done now, so it doesn't happen again in the future. All the other solutions don't address this problem in the long run(well, except Amithlon)... if the hardware becomes commercially abandoned, we're in the same boat again.
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MOS + OS4 + AROS = http://dcs.suomiscene.org/temp/aros_demos.jpg :-D
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@hooligan_DCS:
Is irony a good chosen word when you look at that screenshot? I dont even know what the default theme for MOS is :-? All i have seen has some sort of OS3.9 & OS4.0 copied themes? Whats up with that? Its like skinning windows xp so that it looks like Mac OSX, if you do that, just buy Mac OSX :-P
Do you guys really miss OS4 so much? :-D
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All three seem "Not Ready For Prime Time".
However, that said - Morph OS seems to be ahead in developement than all the others. So, it would be my logical choice for a winner.
As for OS4, well, we'll see. I will count my chickens after they hatch. Looser of the moment - ie. not available.
AROS - to me AROS is not even a complete OS yet, but it is really fun to play with. And in the future as it is developed may become the choice over all because of open source. A real community project rather than a pure business venture. Just wish I was a coder, as this is where I would be coding. I have a VIA ITX mobo and am in the process of making a custom AROS box. That is my faith in the project's future. What fun it is. :banana:
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restore2003 wrote:
@hooligan_DCS:
Is irony a good chosen word when you look at that screenshot? I dont even know what the default theme for MOS is :-? All i have seen has some sort of OS3.9 & OS4.0 copied themes? Whats up with that? Its like skinning windows xp so that it looks like Mac OSX, if you do that, just buy Mac OSX :-P
Do you guys really miss OS4 so much? :-D
OS4 isn't out, so it can't be a case of MorphOS copying OS4 themes. If by chance OS4 looks similar to these MorphOS themes, are we going to ask OS4 users if they miss MorphOS that much? ;-)
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@T_bone:
The "copied" themes look exactly like the first OS4 screenshots from 2002/2003 and present.....no wait...ur just pulling my leg :-) I dont have to explain all this :lol:
But i remember all the yelling and screaming i had to deal with when i posted an OS3.9 screenshot with a MorphOS skin....
So what should i do to retaliate :-D
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Can someone explain what the difference would be to a developer?
Is it hard to make your code work on all three?
Is it a matter of their software architecture being significantly different?
And if so, can't some bright person, and I know there are a lot out there, come up with a code library or API that doesn't break any of the platforms?
MOS, AROS, OS4 or even OS3.9 68k Classic. I know there is an Amiga Foundation Classes effort going on. Are they shooting for that?
Isn't that something we want too or are we absolutely determined to make a clean break? If so, why?
Or would such a thing relegate you to the lowest common denominator?
Maybe for some developers that wouldn't matter. Depends on what you are doing, but certainly smart developers could turn off certain app features if one of the OSs doesn't support it.
Isn't OS4 and MOS just a port of OS3.9 with a nicer front end? If not, what's different? They must have the same software architecture stuff present for 68k programs to work.
The obvious thing going for AROS is that PC hardware is much much cheaper, thus you would get more bang for you buck, and as a result you would expect certain apps to be faster right? What I mean is that PC hardware will ALWAYS be available in higher configurations to Amiga PPCs. It would be most amusing if Amiga software on a PC ran faster than on a PPC based Amiga. Or would that be disasterous?
Excuse me if I am wrong, but isn't AROS based on Linux? Doesn't that mean it has access to Linux software natively?
I guess this sounds absolutely stupid but assuming AROS was based on Linux couldn't it be marketed as another flavour of linux? It might gain some acceptance if it was considered something of a KDE or GNOME replacement + it runs Amiga stuff. Sorta a Lindows done Amiga style.
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Is irony a good chosen word when you look at that screenshot? I dont even know what the default theme for MOS is All i have seen has some sort of OS3.9 & OS4.0 copied themes? Whats up with that? Its like skinning windows xp so that it looks like Mac OSX, if you do that, just buy Mac OSX
I run Ferox skin daily. Frankly OS4 look is horrible due to grey inactive windows which I can't stand a bit.
Care to point me to OS3.9 skin too, as I haven't bumbed into one so far. Thanks.
Do you guys really miss OS4 so much?
Out of interest: if your task is to put OS4, Aros and MorphOS to the same screen, your method would have been... what?
I chose to use OS4 skin on Ambient and run Aros-demos.
And no, I don't miss OS4. That was over a year ago :)
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BigBenAussie wrote:
Excuse me if I am wrong, but isn't AROS based on Linux? Doesn't that mean it has access to Linux software natively?
You are wrong.
AROS is based on Amiga-OS.
I was sure that was obvious for all.
There is a libc which can provide a bridge to Linux ports, but having direct native Linux executables support needs to have a compatible segloader.
AROS kernel parts from Linux would be dangerous as it will taint the AROS kernel with the GPL nightmare. Having libs, laying outside of kernel is possible anyway.
In this very project, everyone should stay away from Linux sources and use BSD sources insteed.
olivier
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Hooligan: Lucky you can change the inactive colour then, eh? ;)
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Hooligan: Lucky you can change the inactive colour then, eh? ;)
I don't know if it's possible just like that. It might be that I would have to change all of the graphicscomponents from grey to darkblue by hand.
Besides, I am more than happy with the Ferox-skin.
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@adam
I got this apparently, wrong idea, from the AROS website faq I read months ago.
I looked again and it is under the FAQ heading:
Why are you using Linux and X11?
Apparently it is NOT obvious to all.
To me this implied they were using Linux as a base and as such could have initiated Linux software.
Can you understand why I might think that?
Although I was pleased to read there is a native version of AROS too.
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@BigBenAussie
There's a project out there, called the OpenAmiga project, that is focused on the similarities between the three platforms, showing what is necessary to deliver a source file that will readily compile across all 3.
MorphOS is a clone tho, and not a direct port. It has a lot of enhancements to the API's, closing a lot of problem areas found in the AmigaOS. Also, has a new front-end called Ambient, and has MUI a native component of the system rather than an add-on.
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Hmmmm. The OpenAmiga.org website is a little scarce of content and according to history it started at least 3 years ago. Are they making any progress or is it in a holding pattern until OS4 comes out?
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BigBenAussie wrote:
@adam
I got this apparently, wrong idea, from the AROS website faq I read months ago.
I looked again and it is under the FAQ heading:
Why are you using Linux and X11?
Apparently it is NOT obvious to all.
To me this implied they were using Linux as a base and as such could have initiated Linux software.
Can you understand why I might think that?
Although I was pleased to read there is a native version of AROS too.
Ok...
You can run AROS on top of Linux, Think of this the same as running UAE on Linux (or any Emulator)... except without the need for any CPU/Hardware emulation. This is great for the devs as they can test something if it crashes, but reopen AROS again :-)
The "Main" version of AROS is the Native one, where AROS actually runs the machine itself. This is what you find on the AROS Live CD, and the one most users prefer. since playing with Linux is less than fun.
I don't think Openamiga is that old... maybe a year at most. Anyway, it lists the common aspects of the three Amigoid systems. Any developer can follow those guidlines for common OS components.
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BigBenAussie wrote:
Why are you using Linux and X11?
Consider X11 as another gfx card, X11.hidd is its driver, in order to show some gfx on "linux-hosted" version, with systems running X11.
As bloodline said, linux is the development environment (as AROS is not able to recompile itself at the moment).
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if apps were available for MOS and OS4 in one installer then that'd be great (and even PPC AROS if someone finally desides to have a go). recompiling software sucks big time and in the 21st century i dont want to and dont believe i should have to (which is why linux sucks, though i still use it as a server because windows sucks more. though i have to say, what's with linux where you have to set your network IP/gateway/sharing/name/group settings in 5 different places to get it configured FFS!? ), i just want to double click and play away. as for which i think is the "winner" i have no opinion because i cant get aros to run (it just crashes after the bootloader) and i dont have the cash to by the custom hardware required for the other two. i'm certainly never ever going to get both an A1 and a MOS box so like i said, cross platform software would solve my (!THE NON TOO TECHY END USER!) problem
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You don't have to compile everything from linux. You can download binaries packaged in .deb or .rpm format for your kernel and CPU. Maybe AROS will have that some day too.