Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: hirschma on March 25, 2004, 06:14:21 AM
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Got this from the OpenBSD Misc mailing list today - from the head of the OpenBSD project:
"The saga continues.
I urge everyone to spread the news far and wide that the Pegasos powerpc platform vendor ... is quite simply, a con-artist company.
Nothing really works, it is all about 4 years from ever going anywhere, they are essentially bankrupt, the machine architecture is more closed than the PC architecture -- the machines are SLOW and will be expensive -- and it is all a fraudulant rip-off operation as far as
we can see. I suspect the North American wing of this is an
investment scam operating; since it owns nothing, and it appears some
European outfit owns all the hardware.
In time, Dale or I may post some mail to show what has really gone on between them and us.
I cannot remain quiet. After 3.5 is out, the code to support that platfrom will be removed from the source tree.
In any case, I am quite confident that there are almost NO WORKING machines in existance -- and we've got some mail that makes that clear. Apparently there are only a handful of working G4 cpus in North America...
As I said, I believe it is smoke and mirrors and investment games."
I find this interesting, as Genesi promotes OpenBSD as one of their main operating systems. Comments?
You can find the same messages in the OpenBSD archives. Here's a link:
Theo's scathing Pegasos message... (http://www.sigmasoft.com/~openbsd/archive/openbsd-misc/200403/msg01079.html)
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Ooh, suspicious single post poster with possible anti-Genesi material. I wonder if I know who you are... :) But the link seems genuine enough, so I'll bite.
Theo is gravely mistaken, and I'm left wondering how he managed to come to such a strange backwards conclusion... Or why he's suddenly so hostile to a platform he doesn't know, when he represents an OS that will supposedly run on anything. Does he know something we don't? Or is such arrogance typical of BSD advocates?
If about 1400 boards is "almost none", then he is right with one statement at least, but it's obvious that he's very wrong that NO boards are in existence, since I'm using one now, and there are almost now as many G4 machines as there are G3 ones.
As for smoke and mirrors investment, if giving a away free boards to build a community and operating at quite a serious loss to woo the Amiga community is some kind of con game, Genesi aren't very good at it: aren't con games supposed to make money? :)
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Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I saw this on the OpenBSD Misc list, and I passed it on. I was interested in getting a Pegasos specifically for running OpenBSD, and well, now, I ain't gonna do it :) No other agenda.
At any rate, the quote is genuine enough. Do a search, and you'll find a quote from a few weeks ago about how the firmware is totally broken - also from Theo.
Jonathan
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Interesting reading and no wonder he is saying it is not working... Pegasos based on Articia was pure crap. Peg2 has been available only for short time and G3@600MHz probably is not fast enough for OpenBSD. And Pegasos *is* expensive in the North-America.
Let's hope things improve upon time. Would be shame if OpenBSD is not supported.
Shame but that is Amiga world today.
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Do a search, and you'll find a quote from a few weeks ago about how the firmware is totally broken - also from Theo.
I tried but could not find that. Could you provide a link?
x86 is probably the best platform to run Linux or OpenBSD. And after Pegasos there aint any other sensible platforms... Macs pay like a fortune.
Edit
But Genesi must improve... working like this is no good.
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Sorry Jonathan, it's just that some people like to restart old issues as anonymous posters.
I'm not attacking you. ;-) I appreciate knowing about this, even if I don't like what I read. I don't understand Theo's hostility, and I want to understand it. If that means uncovering things I don't like then that's how it's gonna have to be. Anyway, I hope the issue with Theo can be resolved soon, possibly by the baseball bat method. (Kidding :) )
I think that BSD does actually run on Pegasos though, even Peg-1. I have a friend who has it running.
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Not that I care about BSD at all.. but..
Subject: Theo De Raadt
To: None
From: Adam Glass
List: netbsd-users
Date: 12/23/1994 11:26:09
On December 20, Theo de Raadt was asked to resign from the NetBSD
Project by the remaining members of 'core'. This was a very difficult
decision to make, and resulted from Theo's long history of rudeness
towards and abuse of users and developers of NetBSD. We believe that
there is no place for that type of behaviour from representatives
of the NetBSD Project, and that, overall, it has been damaging to the
project.
This decision was difficult to make because Theo has a long history of
positive contributions to the project. He was the principal caretaker
of NetBSD's SPARC support, and has written too much code to mention.
We are certainly willing to accept (and would very much like to see)
future contributions from Theo, but we believe that it is
inappropriate for him to be an "official" representative of the
project any longer.
Please direct replies to core@NetBSD.ORG.
later,
Adam Glass
source: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/1994/12/23/0000.html
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The fact that Theo is a bit "egocentric" and "rude" doesn't imply that he isn't good at his job: programming and creating operating systems. This is even confirmed in that netbsd's mail. :-)
BTW, badmouthing a very well known and competent person like Theo is a very very bad way of defending Genesi/Pegasos. :-( The next time you and your fellowship play this fair game with Theo and other very brave non amiga-people, I'll point this thread to their attention. :-D
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This Theo looks like part of the younger "ME ME ME" generation. All wanting everything NOW and not prepared to wait a little while with no sense of community and awareness of the people around who he would be supporting by just being more patient with Genesi
Like Amiga os 4 we will wait until an OS is complete and truly bug free before it is release. That's the nature of Community, and anyone falling out already is in my mind maybhe not someone who deserves respect. The same I can see with Genesi if they take a little longer to ship a product it's out of support for the community and getting thing's right.
I've written Theo to tell him to wait. It might take a month or two until he gets his Pegasos board but it's worth it in the end. If we all do the same we can perhaps drag him back to a sense of something hes lost.
Or maybe he'll want to stay part of the "now" generation as in I WANT IT NOW NOW NOW.!!
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Batman wrote:
BTW, badmouthing a very well known and competent person like Theo is a very very bad way of defending Genesi/Pegasos.
Who's badmouthing Theo here? Nobody I can see. According to what Hooligan (NOT magnetic :-P) posted he was asked to resign for being rude. Nobody here is badmouthing Theo, and more to the point nobody here is badmouthing him to defend Genesi or Pegasos.
So I'm afraid the evil Genesi followers can't be blamed for this one, sir.
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>The fact that Theo is a bit "egocentric" and "rude" doesn't imply that he isn't good at his job: programming and creating operating systems. This is even confirmed in that netbsd's mail.
I haven't said so.
>BTW, badmouthing a very well known and competent person like Theo is a very very bad way of defending Genesi/Pegasos. The next time you and your fellowship play this fair game with Theo and other very brave non amiga-people, I'll point this thread to their attention.
Lets see... his points one by one
"Nothing really works, it is all about 4 years from ever going anywhere, they are essentially bankrupt, the machine architecture is more closed than the PC architecture -- the machines are SLOW and will be expensive"
If nothing works, how I was able to use Pegasos1 for a year or so, and now Pegasos2, both as my mainmachines.
About bankcrupsy.. wonder on what he bases this information of his.
Plus, I don't find 1ghz Pegasos2 either slow, or expensive.
"I suspect the North American wing of this is an investment scam operating; since it owns nothing, and it appears some European outfit owns all the hardware."
Could be. Would like to see some documents or proof of this though.
"In any case, I am quite confident that there are almost NO WORKING machines in existance -- and we've got some mail that makes that clear."
Here he is just lying and making an ass of himself.
"Apparently there are only a handful of working G4 cpus in
North America..."
Again more BS. Unless he is talking about G4 for Pegasos1, that is.
Whats left of his post? Pretty much nothing. I'm sure he is a competent coder, but a lot of of things doesnt match on his post. Credibility is down to zero unless he backs up some of his claims.
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Read the reply to Theo on that mailing list, from a coder who essentially has confirmed his impressions.
http://www.sigmasoft.com/~openbsd/archive/openbsd-misc/200403/msg01084.html
Please, don't start bluetrolling again and look at the bare facts. :-)
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I read it long time ago. How does this change anything?
Is Genesi now more fraudcompany?
Is Genesi now more ready to file bankcrupsy?
Are there now even less working G4's?
Are there now even less working Pegasos-machines?
All I need is some backing for his claims, thats all. And calling me a blue troll will only make me more red ;-)
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Well, there is Diana's experience with Genesi to back up Theo's claims. I think it's enough as a proof. :-D
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@Batman
Ok...
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Please, don't start bluetrolling again and look at the bare facts.
The bare fact is that the non-existence of Pegasos II boards is hilarious. And we have a first poster posting it, and a Batman with less than ten posts threatening "blue trolls" here...
Interestingly, I first heared about it from an OS4 betatester on IRC, long before it appeared on any Amiga news sites... Makes me wonder.
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@Batman
The "bare facts" look pretty simple to me..."GigNIC" support for
BSD isn't yet finished, so the dude sent back the board because he
needs this feature.
Genesi should do what they need to help rectify this (if they're not
already in the process), but I don't see what the earth-shattering
problem is here...
But maybe try harder next time..? :P
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Warface wrote:
The bare fact is that the non-existence of Pegasos II boards is hilarious. And we have a first poster posting it, and a Batman with less than ten posts threatening "blue trolls" here...
I'm going to feign I haven't read this innuendo. :-D
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I'm a bit disappointed with the lack of reasons.. Why is the board broken? What board is he talking about?
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@Jope
Read carefully that thread. :-)
And read this too:
http://www.sigmasoft.com/cgi-bin/wilma_hiliter/openbsd-misc/200402/msg01215.html :-o
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Read the reply to Theo on that mailing list, from a coder who essentially has confirmed his impressions.
The fact is that GigNIC is behind NDA. Guess you cant just walk in and download docs. Probably this is what Theo means by "the machine architecture is
more closed than the PC architecture". Will see what Genesi is going to do to cure this gap. Theo's comments are exaggerated but there is truth behind his words.
Please, don't start bluetrolling again and look at the bare facts.
FYI this has nothing to do with MorphOS.
Edit
Looks like OpenBSD support for Pegasos is over. NetBSD, anyone?
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Basic summary of this thread:
Pegasos is crap, sucks, Genesi are con artists, etc.
Uhm, most of that isn't true. Why so hostile?
This guy seems to be just basically rude and not very nice, and rants like this a lot, so maybe that's why. (Presents an earlier instance of when Theo was punished for his behaviour)
Stop badmouthing this guy, you Genesi troll!
He's trolling and not presenting any facts, I'm just pointing it out.
The fact you try to defend Genesi against Theo's factless trolling means you are a blue troll, so I don't need to listen. You're a troll.
That's more or less how it's going. Hell, us so-called "blue trolls" are even agreeing on many points! There's no angry protectionism or blind apologism here. Try posting criticism of the A1 and see if you'll get that.
(Apologies to Magnetic, for dragging him into this thread. ;-))
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Batman, the thread was two articles when I posted that
1) Theo vaguely saying that the arch is more closed than pc + it doesn't work (it does for me, what's his excuse?) also he spoke a lot about the politics of the company, but I don't care about that, I care about the HW.
2) Diana saying that she didn't get 1G eth drivers -> sent it back
Now all I got from there is that "the board" is broken. Not which board, perhaps Theo has one of the early non-apriliserd April1 boards, which truly are broken to shambles, but not much info about that.
Then the second bit about 1G eth, it's true Diana can't use the board if it's missing the driver (She wants 1G eth), but that shouldn't be a valid reason for Theo to drop OBSD on the Peg 2 altogether, and call the system more closed than a PC?
Usually these open source OSes get stuff done a bit at a time, in the meanwhile the board is fully usable with 100M ethernet, if it's sufficient for the user (the VIA Rhine chip onboard).
So.. Still, from those posts I don't see the reasons why Theo came to his conclusions about the board being crap! The 1G eth thing was totally my reasoning, since Theo didn't specifically say that when he talked about it being closed.
Also, please don't categorise me as a blue troll, I don't run MorphOS and I certainly don't like Genesi that much. I just want to know why the HW that works for ME is broken to HIM. (I'm assuming Theo's still talking about the Pega1 and Diana is talking about the Pega2)
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@jope
First, Theo is not a troll, he's the boss of the OpenBSD project. Read his website: http://www.theos.com/ :-D
Second, Theo is questioning only about Genesi's "customer care". Basically he's alerting everyone to not make his very experience with BBRV. Well, he has a somewhat flaming way of express himself, but when he talks, he talks with reason. Why don't ask him, via misc-openbsd mailing list, the same questions you asked me? I'm sure he will have some interesting answer.. ;-)
Third, OpenBSD's policy is always to support hardware makers that give full and free access to the documentation (Read: no NDA). Look backward in that mailing list for a thread about SPARC documentation for OpenBSD. :-D
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KennyR wrote:
Basic summary of this thread:
Pegasos is crap, sucks, Genesi are con artists, etc.
Uhm, most of that isn't true. Why so hostile?
This guy seems to be just basically rude and not very nice, and rants like this a lot, so maybe that's why. (Presents an earlier instance of when Theo was punished for his behaviour)
Stop badmouthing this guy, you Genesi troll!
He's trolling and not presenting any facts, I'm just pointing it out.
The fact you try to defend Genesi against Theo's factless trolling means you are a blue troll, so I don't need to listen. You're a troll.
That's more or less how it's going. Hell, us so-called "blue trolls" are even agreeing on many points! There's no angry protectionism or blind apologism here. Try posting criticism of the A1 and see if you'll get that.
Huh? Magnetic? I think you are talking about hooligan, but in two posts now you've referred to Magnetic. Is there some other discussion going on about this elsewhere? I'm confused :-?
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@kennyR
What you said is very funny, so let's laugh! :-D
:lol: :lol: :-P
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Ah crap, you're right. It's the butterfly avatar's fault! Apologes to Magnetic, he has nothing to do with this thread. :inquisitive:
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Batman wrote:
@jope
First, Theo is not a troll, he's the boss of the OpenBSD project. Read his website: http://www.theos.com/ :-D
I never called him a troll. I know what he's done. In my opinion, accomplishments don't give justification for being arrogant..
Second, Theo is questioning only about Genesi's "customer care". Basically he's alerting everyone to not make his very experience with BBRV. Well, he has a somewhat flaming way of express himself, but when he talks, he talks with reason.
Ok, why did he draw the HW into the discussion if he's only griping about Genesi support?
And still: even though that's his way of writing, I don't give him any props for just slagging away without really telling us why. Even though he's accomplished in the BSD arena, all that better than you attitude drops his points in my eyes..
Why don't ask him, via misc-openbsd mailing list, the same questions you asked me? I'm sure he will have some interesting answer.. ;-)
I asked in private. Let's see if it he reads it or answers.
Third, OpenBSD's policy is always to support hardware makers that give full and free access to the documentation (Read: no NDA). Look backward in that mailing list for a thread about SPARC documentation for OpenBSD. :-D
Ok, that I didn't know.
Then again, from what I've heard about Theo, he probably isn't very willing to flex to anyone else's will.
Hmm, I wonder why this subject actually gets to me - I don't even have any interest in running *BSD on my Pegasos. :-D Oh well, I guess it's a matter of principle.. I don't just take it for granted when people slag off my choice of car either without reason. :-)
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Batman wrote:
Third, OpenBSD's policy is always to support hardware makers that give full and free access to the documentation (Read: no NDA). Look backward in that mailing list for a thread about SPARC documentation for OpenBSD. :-D
Ah.. In that case this would have nothing to do with Genesi. Ok, it's Genesi's decision to use Marvell Chipset on their board, but this NDA policy is Marvell's and there is nothign Genesi can do to avoid it.
OTOH: This ethernet is on SAME chip as Ram controller and other North-bridge stuff... So if they have support (and documentation) for rest of Pegasos 2 then adding GB ethernet driver should not be any problem.
Apparently this ain't the issue here.. I do understand that communicating with Genesi can be Pain and those older boards (given free to developers) have not been up to specs... But still, it does not add up.
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Ok, I was going to stay out of this thread but I got dragged into it. (why was my name mentioned anyway???)
Firstly, Theo had a Pegasos 2 for a couple of weeks. When bPlan updated the firmware there were problems with the Openbsd build (which was working fine on Peg1 and peg2 OF 1.0) This would have been a quick matter for Theo to work around but he decided not to do so, making a stance that he wouldnt work on "closed hardware"
One of the most exciting features of the Pegasos2 is the onboard Gige. This is much better and faster than pci gige. The unfortunate thing is that Genesi has NDAs with Marvell. ATM Genesi/bplan has the only full PPC computer in the world running with that bridge, so combined with the Marvell NDA it could be considered IP.
AFAIK they could not release the full documentation of the Northbridge to Theo due to a varity of legal and business decisions. This obviously was unacceptable to the OpenBSD devs, because they want everything totally "open" Its the classic argument of Closed Source vs Open Source.
Genesi in fact was excited to work with Theo and the OpenBSD guys but could not at that time give out that information. Even though Theo is a well known coding figure, his "antics" are known to alot of people in the industry. If he had exhibited a little more patience he may have had a better relationship with Genesi. As it was they promoted OpenBSD to many industrial clients and at trade shows.
Anyone who is running a Pegasos2 will tell you its very stable and works well. I have been running a Pegasos 2 G4 with the 2.6.4 PPC Linux kernel and Debian with KDE 3.2.1 and Gnome 2.4.2 and it hasnt crashed once. I've had uptime of over 10 days. Since moving away from Articia the Pegasos is now an industrial class piece of hardware.
MorphOS makes strides daily and more native PPC programs are coded and/or ported all the time. The community is growing rapidly and the expectations are high. If you look into Theo's record of problems with companies, and yes even his own fellow developers you will see some scope on this. I do not know this individual but will give him the respect that he is an elite coder. However, his politics and attitude are questionable to some.
magnetic
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Batman wrote:
@jope
First, Theo is not a troll, he's the boss of the OpenBSD project. Read his website: http://www.theos.com/ :-D
Second, Theo is questioning only about Genesi's "customer care". Basically he's alerting everyone to not make his very experience with BBRV. Well, he has a somewhat flaming way of express himself, but when he talks, he talks with reason. Why don't ask him, via misc-openbsd mailing list, the same questions you asked me? I'm sure he will have some interesting answer.. ;-)
If there was an experience with BBRV... Hoo-boy, especially as all the visible efforts really did look positive on that front.
Basic rules of the game:
-If you want to work with OpenBSD, you can't blow smoke up Theo's ___.
-If you aren't blowing smoke, Theo is generally "the voice of reason," but he's human, and can sometimes get the wrong idea like anyone else. (Who gave him the idea that Genesi was representing itself as a huge edifice, vs. a muddling startup possibly trying to do right?)
-If you don't have the courtesy to stand up and correct him before he enacts bad policy, he's probably not going to want to work with you anyway. (The McEwen 'people who piss me off' excuse -- But if you don't have Theo's best interest in mind, you don't have the project's best interest in mind, and it's time to find another project.)
-If it comes down to an unrecoverable disagreement, you can always fork. However, the 'value' of OpenBSD is in the auditing, so forks usually drop to the attractiveness of NetBSD_without_the_scalability.
If the Barbie were still going and had the same exact problems (including customer support, if applicable), I doubt relations there would've taken a nosedive so quickly, and as far as I know, Theo and friends don't have a problem with expensive 486 boards (http://soekris.com/). So what happened? ... (For those who can claim authority: Don't tell me, tell misc@, if there's a chance it's worth salvaging. But if you can't be 'Open' about it, they'll be happy to hand you plenty of rope.)
Third, OpenBSD's policy is always to support hardware makers that give full and free access to the documentation (Read: no NDA). Look backward in that mailing list for a thread about SPARC documentation for OpenBSD. :-D
Policy can/has been simplified to "Free as in build a suitcase nuke out of it."
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Being the first 'scene' platform into a major project's CVS was a great bragging right and could remain so... I'd suggest not losing it, or at least, not going down in memory as only wasting the project's time. :-)
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:lol:
What a bizzare thread!
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Jonathan
itix wrote:
I tried but could not find that. Could you provide a link?
First, here's Theo's previous messages, dated 2/20/04 (sorry for the raw language...):
"At this point, I would recommend against anyone buying a piece of hardware from the Pegasos people because their firmware is SO BUSTED that it makes Apple roms look like hot {bleep}.
If you want a powerpc machine, I must relunctantly recommend Apple hardware, since the alternatives are impossible to use.
ps. And their tech support people have proved to be intensely arrogant about the bugs in their software..."
You should be able to find it on the Sigmasoft archives, but they're down right now :(
I'll also make note that there are many reasons to want to run OpenBSD on non-x86 platforms, and that Pegasos would be a great solution if the project's leader didn't condemn it.
Jonathan
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Well, I guess to those of with experience of the Pegasos platform this looks like nothing but pure flamebait...so lets just review:
1. Pegasos 1 had (and still has) some serious problems...there is a lot of information in the public domain about this and it's no secret about the painful Artica S, April I, April II evolution...The Peg I could not be made to work reliably with a G4.
2. 600MHz with a 100/133MHz FSB is slow compared with latest PCs - no arguement with that, but it does depend on application. People use old Pentium 200 Mhz boxes for firewalls, mail servers etc. running linux and it's certainly way more capable than that.
3. Only a few G4 machines in USA...well pardon me if I don;t fall over in surprise. Again, there is plenty of public domain information stated by the head honchos that they are struggling in the transition from bleeding money into the platform into making it a profitable entity. Sales aren't what anyone expected (same applies to A1 for example)...but I do see progress, getting assosciated with IBM, visibility in Motorola for example. It's also publically stated that production is occurring in small batches (low 100s) for this very reason. A G4 Pegasos II costs $600 to $700..this is no small investment (but see point 5)
4. Open firmware could be bugged for all I know - I'm not qualified to know. I've seen other people discussing issues regarding device tree, CPU enumeration. I assume they will be fixed in time.
5. Cost - it's very competetive for a PPC platform. I don't think he has a point here unless you want to open the old chestnut of comparing Apples with Oranges i.e. PPC vs x86
6. Genesi as a working business entity - again there's plenty of public domain knowledge regarding their financial situation and we all know it's not good - even top management posted this information! (pretty unusual IMO)
As to their business practice _ I really don't have any inside information or knowledge. If Theo does then I might consider myself forewarned, however:
7. The tone of the post is pure flamery...irrespective of how competent the person is (and I surely don't know him from Adam) This just reduces the impact of the statement.
So it looks like some of his points are way of base and on a few there is still work to be done...
Sound fair?
Steve
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Sounded like it just didn't work out for his projects and there were communication issues.
He even knew the whol project (Pegasos BSD) was at very early beta stage.
Those are the facts.
Do I need to list the reams of hardware on the PC platform that may or may not be supported on various kernels?
If Genesi had the opportunity to get Gig ethernet working and missed it due to not paying attention to their email then it's a shame - developer realtions are key.
If, however, the mails merely bounced then not sure what to make of it. I have had one bounce from genesi.lu and none from pegasos-usa.com in over a year.
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The one thing people in this thread don't realize is that Theo (and anyone else outside of the amiga "community") is used to having a certain minimum quality, support and low price on a motherboard. Theo can walk into any shop in the world and buy a computer that has much better price/performance and accessibility than either the AmigaOne or either model of the Pegasos, and not only x86 - a Mac easily beats even a Pegasos on price. That's just the way things are out in "the real world". What happens when he complains about it? a little red vs blue fight erupts, and he's accused of "impatience" and "not trying hard enough".
Guess what people - in the 21st century, people don't have to "be patient" or "try harder" when they buy a computer. My Windows XP box is a *lot* better at that sort of thing than my AmigaOne, and I expect it to keep on being that even after I get AmigaOS 4 for it. Sure, OS4 will be leaner and probably more fun to program (I expect similar things about morphos), but the degree to which users are expected to "grin and bear it" is from back in the computing dark ages. I have put up with a *lot* of crap, just because it's an amiga; I've read both "reds" and "blues" with similar stories. If I'd had to put up with only one tenth of that when I bought a PC, that box would have been taken back to the shop in an instant. Things have evolved over the past decade, out "in the real world". Theo's not the one with the problem, the amiga "community" is.
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Ooh, suspicious single post poster with possible anti-Genesi material.
More than one, seemingly.
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elite programmer huh
then what about this
Known Problems
* OpenBSD has a problem finding itself ......
from links within his own webpage
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I take exception to your first paragraph. I (personally) absolutely *do* realize this and I'm sure your generaliztion sucks for other too.
With regards to your second paragraph....unfortunately that's the reality of a non-mainstream platform. If peoples expectations are higher than that nothing either of us can say or do is going to close that gap.
It's a *personal* choice to go against the flow...this applies even one of the biggest 'marginal' markets - Mac OS. Marginalization issues abound even there.
Lets not forget that Windows didn't even become good until Win2k (or NT4 if you were brave enough...) The amount of crap the user had to put up with on version prior to that was comparable IMO.
B-, must try harder! :-D
Steve
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Karlos wrote:
:lol:
What a bizzare thread!
yup!!!
and i'd like to be helpful here, so, if anyone needs some creative cuss-words to fling out at others look here for help:
SwearMaster 3000 (http://www.edgecity.net/swearmaster/index.html )
isn't technology wonderful????
:roflmao:
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[homer]
It's Amazing. I can't believe some guy I never heard of is slagging of a plaform I know virtually nothing about...
[/homer]
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(Someone actually registered a new account here on amiga.org just to
bring us this "news item". I find this somewhat interesting. And
touching. An "exodus individual" that has come back home perhaps? ;-))
OpenBSD on Pegasos makes sense in lots of ways. The main goal
(AFAIK) with OpenBSD is security, and OpenBSD would certainly find
itself useful on this PPC platform.
I have a hard time understanding his issues here. As an OS programmer
he should not be unfamiliar with the fact that different firmware has
different characteristics, and certainly he must have seen changes
made in firmware before? What's the fuss about?
As for availability, sure, it's a new platform and the production has
unfortunately not been able to meet the high demand. This has been
annoying to many "Pegasos eager" people (as we have seen here on these
community forums as well), but at least *he* (they?) got their boards,
and the production volume is increasing! So what's the fuss about?
As for the unreachable documentation for the Gigabit Ethernet, which
is one of the main features of the Pegasos board, this could certainly
be frustrating, but hey, it's only one feature after all. Frustrating,
yes, but it should not be a reason to get so upset on a personal
level to such a degree to write a public letter in this tone! And why
would a compiled binary file (for that feature only) be so bad?
"More closed than PC", yeah right. Why so impatient?
As for the stability - here he is totally up in the blue IMO. I have
two Pegasos II motherboards, one G3 and one G4, I have been running
the G4 CPU at 100% *non-stop* for three weeks, and not a single
problem has arised. I have heard no reports from other users that
contradict this (I have not heard any reports from Pegasos OpenBSD
users though). The current marvell based Pegasos motherboards runs
much more stable than some x86 motherboards I have owned. The Pegasos
is *rock stable* since it moved away from the Articia. If his OS got
unstable with the firmware update, why didn't he simply correct the
problems instead of writing such a post? BTW, for reference it would
be quite interesting to send him some certain other Articia based
motherboard and let him test some stability ... ;-)
As for Genesi's finances, corporate structure, and the price of the
motherboard, heck, what does that has to do with anything? He is an OS
programmer! BTW, my latest PC (motherboard+CPU) was more expensive
than my Pegasos (but a lot cheaper than some other PPC solution).
Sure, that PC is more powerful, but it's also hot and noisy as hell
(besides being more expensive), and it's not PPC. It would IMHO be
better if he simply coded his OS instead of taking on to a pricerunner
role. Let the customers decide what they want. Ultimate horsepower
and heat is not allways needed (nor wanted) in every single hardware
application. And it's not like this current price is written in stone
anyway, this price is AFAIK set according to current production
volumes.
OpenBSD could be great for many purposes, and that OS in combination
with the Pegasos hardware makes sense for many applications. I hope
that Genesi will care to try to find a way of resolving this, despite
this blatant public letter. However, an eventual discontinued official
support from some OpenBSD developer will definitely not be a show
stopper in any way for the Pegasos platform IMO ...
-
Well since the Peg is made to run MorphOS as its native system I dont see the big deal. If they want it on the Peg they need to program to its specs. I for one just ordered a new Peg II G4 and cant wait for it to come! Just thinking of running all my Amiga apps on a 1GHZ CPU is awsome! I dont plan to put linux or BSD on it at all. Its simply a replacement for my old A3000 and nothing more. If I can use itas a full time computer as I did on my Amiga its good for me!
-
Likewise here (waiting for a Peg II G4) and also sold my most beloved Amiga to get this opportunity...a machine I probably sunk over $5k into over the years.... j'ai regret rien..or something along those lines.
As far as other operating systems go.. I never tried BSD but I certainly will get round to installing and using linux this time (never did on my Peg I). I will be showing it off and demoing it to anyone who's interested (and a few who probably aren't :-D)
Linux and other OS'es present a more viable entry point to the Pegasos than MorphOS from a familiarity perspective of course.
Back on topoc = I thought BSD was integral to the ShopIP Guardian product...so this guy could be important, at least to that effort?
Steve
-
takemehomegrandma wrote:
(Someone actually registered a new account here on amiga.org just to
bring us this "news item". I find this somewhat interesting. And
touching. An "exodus individual" that has come back home perhaps? ;-))
I guess I could be called an exodus individual - I ran a business on Amigas back in the '80s/'90s. Put myself though school doing graphics for local car dealership commercials.
I'd love to have a new Amiga platform - hell, I'm toying with the idea of recreating my old Amiga desktop - but the Pegasos was particularly interesting to me since I'm a big OpenBSD supporter - and Genesi identifies it as one of their major OS's.
So, when someone that I greatly respect, and who is widely respected, for his OS work, I figured it was newsworthy. Yes, Theo De Raadt may be consider an a-hole by a lot of folks, but he's smart, he's dealt with all the weirdness of the PC world, he's accomplished a lot - and when he makes such charges, I think that we all should at least take note. He's earned that much, IMO.
I wouldn't read much more into it. I'm not affiliated with any of the pretenders to the Amiga throne. I just like cool computing.
Jonathan
-
In any case, I am quite confident that there are almost NO WORKING machines in existance -- and we've got some mail that makes that clear. Apparently there are only a handful of working G4 cpus in North America...
Oh, give us a break!
No working machines in existance? I have an old peg-1 right here, and I'll be getting a peg II real soon. (And I know plenty of others in existance)
Just a FUD spreader.
-
@iamaboringperson
Theo de Raadt is not the kind of person who spreads FUD for the sake of it. :-(
-
Quick comment here that is probably going to cause me to get attacked.
But here is my comment take it any way you want.
This thread is about Theo BSD and Pegasos boards.
So why has so many people on this posting gone out of their way to drag Mai and AI into this when they have NOTHING at all to do with this.
So my suggestion is talk about how great your platform is.
leave the mud slinging to the Politicians.
It is not needed or appreciated by anyone.
maybe some people here see conspiracies because they think about what they have done and what they are doing now.
A dishonest person trust's no one.
Kgrach
-
BTW, if Linux can be ported to the thing, I see no reason why BSD can't be ported. :-)
-
"So why has so many people on this posting gone out of their way to drag Mai and AI into this when they have NOTHING at all to do with this."
I think people (myself included) were trying to speculate on the cause for dis-satisfaction as no-one could reconcile the functionality opinion with their experience.
"So my suggestion is talk about how great your platform is.
leave the mud slinging to the Politicians."
Well, as the thread started with flamebait of almost troll like proportions why are you surprised?
"It is not needed or appreciated by anyone. "
Actually....you are dead wrong on this unfortunately, there's a vocal quantity of people who find it both necessary and fun :-(
Every single person on here has an agenda, some are out there up front, some aren't ... some are more sinister than others...lets not forget this plus the old classic 'opinions are like arseholes...'
Have a better day,
Steve
-
JKD wrote:
SNIP
Back on topoc = I thought BSD was integral to the ShopIP Guardian product...so this guy could be important, at least to that effort?
Steve
The last thing I'd heard was that ShopIP was looking at other hardware besides Pegasos.
Wow, I never thought e-mail from me on the misc@openbsd list would get linked from an Amiga site. Hmmm, where to start, there was more to the relationship between Genesi and OpenBSD besides Genesi loaning the OpenBSD project a couple of boards. So if you can't provide a developer the docs required to provide kernel support for the ENTIRE board then why did you commision them in the first place? Oh and who needs GigNIC support, what a bloody stupid question.
The OpenBSD requirement that they not sign NDA's to get access to programming info is very well documented, that is if you're tuned in to the OpenBSD world.
To this day I can not send e-mail to the genesi-usa domain from my work, it always bounces. I always have to go through bbrv.
Too be very honest I wish everything worked the way it was supposed to. I had this great idea for a small PPC cluster using the Peg2 boards using OpenBSD, but alas ....
-
If I were Genesi, I'd consider this a very important problem to deal with. I wouldn't know how to resolve the issue of the Marvell NDA, but at least Genesi should let it be known that they're a serious hardware vendor and should correct the misleading picture that some important developers may have now. Genesi should work on improving the information flow to and from developers, it should make damn sure email isn't bouncing from any of its offices, and where changes need to be made, they should be.
If there are issues with Peg II hardware or firmware that preclude OpenBSD support, Genesi should proactively outline them, to avoid situations like this. It seems otherwise it will be impossible to win the confidense of outside coders.
Well, it's easy to make suggestions like this in hindsight, but there've been communication and organizational problems with Genesi on various levels since the beginning, so something like this breakdown isn't exactly a huge surprise. The important thing is to make constructive use of it: fix what's broken internally, correct outside impressions that are inaccurate, etc. Just my two cents' worth.
-- gary_c
-
takemehomegrandma wrote:
I have a hard time understanding his issues here. As an OS programmer
he should not be unfamiliar with the fact that different firmware has
different characteristics, and certainly he must have seen changes
made in firmware before? What's the fuss about?
I'm going to assume Theo is really down on the hardware world right now, having just burnt bridges with Sun over excessive NDAing... IIRC, they used to be his favorite.
As for the unreachable documentation for the Gigabit Ethernet, which
is one of the main features of the Pegasos board, this could certainly
be frustrating, but hey, it's only one feature after all. Frustrating,
yes, but it should not be a reason to get so upset on a personal
level to such a degree to write a public letter in this tone! And why
would a compiled binary file (for that feature only) be so bad?
1. OpenBSD. You'd trust the security of your suitcase nuke to someone else's binary?
2. You can't "Linuxulate" a kernel module. Someone offered OpenBSD binaries?
"More closed than PC", yeah right. Why so impatient?
It'd be nice to know what exactly in the firmware cheesed him off.
As for Genesi's finances, corporate structure, and the price of the
motherboard, heck, what does that has to do with anything? He is an OS
programmer!
Open source guys often get paid, or at least they try to. Maybe he's trigger happy with startup_wanting_OS_for_free after losing the ARPA grant last year... Or maybe Rahn's gotten into some sort of 'difference of opinion?'
---
Edit: I should note that, even if I'm a bit grumpy at the predictability of it all... Well, gary_c said it. Pegasos doesn't appear any deader than BSD, yet, but it's a wake-up call that was going to have to come sooner or later.
-
Looks like more politics. From the small bits I've read off his website, Theo seems pretty stubborn and independent. Such is not a good example of a good programmer.
I urge everyone to spread the news far and wide that the Pegasos powerpc platform vendor ... is quite simply, a con-artist company.
Give us some proof, first. Requesting people to spread FUD is not good practice. This first sentence alone destroys his credibility, IMO.
the machines are SLOW and will be expensive
How can you say "the machines" are slow in the present tense, and say they will be expensive? Either they are or they aren't.
In time, Dale or I may post some mail to show what has really gone on between them and us.
Better sooner than later if Theo doesn't want to look like a total jerk.
In any case, I am quite confident that there are almost NO WORKING machines in existance -- and we've got some mail that makes that clear
Which, of course, cannot be made public for any number of reasons... including the fact that this guy is all too willing to call a company a fraud long before any rational evidence has been compiled.
I sure wouldn't take this guy seriously, no matter how much code he writes.
-
I mailed Theo de Raadt and got reply today. I can understand his attitude.
In my opinion it is up to Genesi to fix this situation now. If MorphOS developers had to work in similar fashion would it work? I doubt...
-
Theo seems pretty stubborn and independent. Such is not a good example of a good programmer.
I beg to differ. For example, Fabio is a pain in the ass to have a discussion with (being very "stubborn and independent"), but I have a lot of respect for his programming abilities; his work on Aros speaks for itself. I think Theo is a very similar sort of person.
About the licensing issues with BSD, I for one am not at all surprised. If Bill Buck didn't want to license the AmigaOS, why would he want to license some Unix variant? I think he's generally averse to licensing anything.
-
Dale Rahn has posted his side of the story at ann.lu (http://ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=news&file=1080281455.msg (http://ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=news&file=1080281455.msg)). Anyway, I assume it's really him; certainly seems authentic. I've spoken up for Genesi in the past because I think their intentions are good, and they have in fact gotten products out, but this kind of situation is really hard to take. First, the apparent obstinance or indifference of bplan and others that don't let outside developers have the information they need. And also the gall to not only not pay a guy but not be forthcoming about things, and even to try to charge for boards that were supposed to be -- I thought -- provided without charge for the porting work.
I think things have to be straightened out if Genesi intends to continue to do business. (And before "the other side" jumps in to further take advantage, let me just say that I still think Genesi management is well-intentioned but just screws up badly on the details, or those working under them do. And anybody supporting a platform that was secretly sold 11 months ago really has no basis for throwing stones about management integrity anyway IMHO, so I'd suggest not getting into things on that level.)
But there's definitely a lot of work to do to build trust on all sides, so let's see what happens. Just my two cents' worth, written impulsively after reading Dale Rahn's post.
-- gary_c
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itix wrote:
I mailed Theo de Raadt and got reply today. I can understand his attitude.
Same here.
However, I still stand by my previous statement that he should have worded himself differently + points go down for arrogance and exaggeration..
Now I just get why he's ticked off, as the story has unfolded a tiny bit.
I hope Theo releases what he was talking about in the posting, I'd like to see how he was treated.
Ah, how I so love my classic Amigas. NO company politics can make or break them any more.. Who can kill a dead platform again. :-D
-
And before "the other side" jumps in to further take advantage, let me just say that I still think Genesi management is well-intentioned but just screws up badly on the details, or those working under them do.
( snip attempt to deflect criticism and take pot shots at Amiga Inc )
Gary
I have said similar about intentions of Amiga Inc in the past and gotten liberally flamed for it. I suspect you will get treated differently by the people that flamed me, but I do hope that people on the red side show a bit more class and restrain themselves from reacting in a similar way to this litany of unpaid employees speaking out as others have in the past.
Now is the time to see what we can rescue from this situation, namely MorphOS and Pegasos.
Dave.
-
CodeSmith wrote:
About the licensing issues with BSD, I for one am not at all surprised. If Bill Buck didn't want to license the AmigaOS, why would he want to license some Unix variant? I think he's generally averse to licensing anything.
You don't have to license BSD. You just have to get it written in the first place.
-
The OpenBSD-Genesi soap opera continues, here's the teaser:
[color=000099]I also didn't want to deal with a company that, in my mind, was instigating situations by their tactics with ShopIP. I have better things to do with my time than to sit there and deal with back and forth bickering, and a company who has their corporate officers post like mad on Amiga bulletin boards, whose "users" make Linux zealots look positively peaceful.[/color]
You can see the full episode here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-misc&m=108027872117087&w=2
-
Messy. Assuming the allegations are true, that is.
-
I still think Genesi management is well-intentioned but just screws up badly on the details
the road to hell is paved with good intentions. :cry:
It's simply unprofessional for any CEO to promise a salery and then lie about being able to deliver it.
This shabby treatment of employees shows a complete lack of respect. You simply do NOT leave people hanging, with no information. Then dick them with a promise of money which either bounces or is WAY smaller than the time and work you did. I mean, there doesn't even appear to be any apology!
I'm totally revolted.
-
I still think Genesi management is well-intentioned but just screws up badly on the details
How ironic :-|
Once upon a time (during the worst flaming) I suggested that Amiga Inc. seemed to me to be well intentioned but simply crap at management. Several people of the Genesi persuasion brushed that notion aside as a bit of BAF behaviour and hammered home what a bunch of crooks they really are.
Seems what goes around comes around. Pity it's rarely anything good :-(
-
ahh well here go again more infighting
and slagging off.I can only read and laugh
:lol: :lol: :lol: 8-) 8-) 8-)
-
"There were also sabotage attempts made on the CrunchBox itself,including a logic bomb within the code, and a concerted reverse-engineering attempt on the Pegasos-based Crunchbox.Both of these were discovered and combated against by John Johnson and the rest
of the ShopIP team."
Reverse engineering by Genesi? Surely not! ;)
-
BADHead wrote:
ahh well here go again more infighting
and slagging off.I can only read and laugh
:lol: :lol: :lol: 8-) 8-) 8-)
Yeah. I'm waiting for the BGF labelling to start :lol:
Seriously though, having read further down the thread (I just saw the thing cecilia quoted when I posted), I saw DaveP pretty much said the same thing, but I have to agree that I hope we don't see a new round of flaming etc., no matter how irresistable some may find the opportunity*
*gary_c - Jumping straight on the defensive and taking a shot at the "other side" over the whole kmos thing before anybody even makes a remark, probably isn't the best way to avoid this, your'e just giving them more of an excuse...
-
For example, Fabio is a pain in the ass to have a discussion with (being very "stubborn and independent"),
Well, I guess I'm becoming famous, this is the 2nd time I get mentioned in a thread I have no relation with. :-P
Jokes apart, I respect your view of my personality, but it sounds more like a compliment to me than something with a negative spin. I mean, would it be better if I were easily moldable in whatever shape one wanted?
However, just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to know what do you mean by "independent".
-
Hey, lookit, you kids made DaemonNews! (http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=4471)
----------------
Not by my hand, I'm just watching the fireworks.
-
I'm showing restraint by refusing to comment on this... It'll only wind me up.
-
You may kick me for this, but i think the pegasos/Morphos has destroyed the the rest of the community that was left :-(
And dont say that im wrong, you know it`s true.....
Just think about it, all this effort by some to split up the community just to promote some selfish issues, all this rumour spreading on ann.lu and moobunny, its just stupidity...
I am not against MorphOs at all, believe me, i was rather positive when it arrived, but some of it`s "fans" have done in great lenght all they can to post crap against everyone who have a constructive opinion of OS4 :-(
And how can they speak dirt about Garry Hare when they dont know the person, and dont know his history? Why not give the man a chance? Its that sort of things that make the Amiga brand a doomed product to begin with!
:-x
-
restore2003 wrote:
You may kick me for this, but i think the pegasos/Morphos has destroyed the the rest of the community that was left :-(
Please don't make this thread about "who threw the first stone". IMHO, you would not win such an argument. So let's not argue?
-
@restore2003
Yup, it would have been nice if both companies had just stuck to developing their respective products and tried marketing them to their customers on the merits of the software and hardware.
-
@Restore: There are jerks on both sides.
-
Restore2003 wrote:
You may kick me for this, but i think the pegasos/Morphos has destroyed the the rest of the community that was left
You are wrong. If it wasn't Pegasos, it would be UAE or AROS or Amithlon or Linux or Windows or Mac. MorphOS isn't the cause of the destruction of the community, just a symptom. That's what happens when you don't supply the hardware or software people want, and that's why the possible OS4 userbase has now shrunk to a tiny size. Not Pegasos. If AInc had done their job properly no-one would even care about it.
That's what life is like. If you fart around and don't do what you're supposed to, someone else will. Tough luck.
-
>Theo de Raadt says Pegasos Bad
If he says so, it must be so.
-
Fire bad!
Tree pretty!
-
KennyR wrote:
That's what happens when you don't supply the hardware or software people want, and that's why the possible OS4 userbase has now shrunk to a tiny size.
Are you sureeee? :-D :lol: :-D
-
OS4 had its momentum but it was two years ago. In the Meantime MorphOS saved lot of this community.
-
No Batman, I'm not sure. I'm goddamn certain.
-
You're smarter than I am then 'coz I spent the last three days being wound up by this. :-(
Good on ya!
Steve
-
@Punk Guy
Hmm, let me guess. Buffy Fan?
-
@Itix
I don't agree. I think both sides/company alliances have done things to save the community. Though it's more of a side effect than by direct action.
-
Noticing the rebuttal (http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=6499&limit=no#216868), I have to raise two questions:
1. Anyone remember a "hacker" documentary centered around [Draper | some actor claiming to be Draper | someone not associated with Draper at all and I'm remembering it entirely wrong because I only watched it because it was the only thing on one 4AM], riding around at a desk in the back of a pickup?
2. Speaking of conspiracy theories, what's with the annoying Slashdot coincidence (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/29/1312217&mode=nested)?
-
I didn't see that so much as a rebuttal...more of a balancing up the other side of the story. Paul's account seemed fairly complete and open, actually the same as bbrv's has been - the acidic nature of the discussions so far is really related to the vitriol in Theo's post.
1. Read both sides of the story
2. Read between the lines
3. Repeat 1 and 2 again (ad nauseum)
4. ....
5. Conclusion
There's 3 sides to every story...
Steve :-D
-
JKD wrote:
I didn't see that so much as a rebuttal...more of a balancing up the other side of the story.
Look up 'rebuttal' in a dictionary? :-)
Anyhow, respect to Theo (who's welcome to hate whatever hardware he wants on technical grounds), respect to Dale (who wants to get paid), even some small respect to BBRV for going on the goose-chase (though, er, um... er... yeah)...
I can't say I know anything about ShopIP, the CrunchBox, or Draper's perspective/personality. It seems like a straightforward enough product, but then, Pegasos did, too. So... apologies to the man and his coworkers if I'm getting this wrong, but if memory serves (and I'm not sure it does, see the above), I have to wonder if his is a group prone to shouting "logic bomb!" in crowded theaters.
["Logic bomb" is a nasty concept, especially in private... If one's for real, it's hard to prove to outside parties; if it's not for real, same goes. It's also an indefinite enough term that, lacking any semantic track record on part of the claimant, it could mean anything between an unchecked buffer ("Ooh, sneaky 'logic bomb,' we wouldn't have noticed anything until you injected your shellcode!"), an Apple-grade f*ckup (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/OSX/itunes2_erased_drives.html), or Elbox/Office Space click-to-explode functionality. Theo seems to trust their side of things, which smells nice, but it's unclear if he trusts them for positive reasons or just for lack of negatives.]
---
Edit: Oh, and of course, if I'd bothered to look, Slashdot's "Logic Bomb" is a run-of-the-mill user (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=80796&cid=7113632). Though that, in turn, doesn't rule it out as being anyone's pet term, which is what I'm trying to figure out.
-
Floid wrote:
JKD wrote:
I didn't see that so much as a rebuttal...more of a balancing up the other side of the story.
Look up 'rebuttal' in a dictionary? :-)
Yeah...you're right, not quite sure what word I was thinking of...probably one that doesn't exist! ;-)
Largely as a result of getting wound up by reading garbage posts in forums...keep telling myself it doesn't matter and keep taking the pills :-D
Steve
-
Hooligan_DCS wrote:
>Theo de Raadt says Pegasos Bad
If he says so, it must be so.
Theo's garage band doing covers of George Thorogood?
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/george-thorogood-and-the-destroyers/bad-to-the-bone.html (http://www.lyricsdepot.com/george-thorogood-and-the-destroyers/bad-to-the-bone.html)
On the day I was born
The nurses all gathered 'round
And they gazed in wide wonder
At the joy they had found
The head nurse spoke up
Said leave this one alone
She could tell right away
That I was bad to the bone
Bad to the bone, bad to the bone
B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, bad to the bone
I broke a thousand hearts
Before I met you
I'll break a thousand more baby
Before I am through
I wanna be yours pretty baby
Yours and yours alone
I'm here to tell you honey
That I'm bad to the bone
Bad to the bone
B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, bad to the bone
I'll make a rich woman beg
And I'll make a good woman steal
I'll make an old woman blush
And I'll make a young girl squeal
I wanna be yours pretty baby
Yours and yours alone
I'm here to tell ya honey
That I'm bad to the bone
B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, bad to the bone
And when I walk the streets
Kings and queens step aside
Every woman I meet
They all stay satisfied
I wanna tell ya pretty baby
What I see I make my own
I'm here to tell ya honey
That I'm bad to the bone, bad to the bone
B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, B-b-b-b-bad, bad to the bone
:-D :-D :-D :-D