Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: NightShade737 on March 22, 2004, 09:22:37 PM
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I am torn as to which of these two to buy for the main reason, which one is faster? For instance, the Promo states it has an interface speed of 12MB/s to the Amiga, where as the Mediator states that it is 50MB/s.
Now the reason I am torn is the fast that I would like to keep my ISA slots as well though, and buying a Mediator would kick out all my ISA slots.
Now the perfect soloution to this would be the ZIII Mediator which still states 50MB/s and only uses a single slot like the Promo, and even better, it's actually smaller than a promo too!..... problem is that it is discontinued and no-where sells them, which sort of makes that useless.
But anyway, I think my question is - Has anyone actually benched various devices in the same machine on both a Prometheus and a Mediator? Preferably in an A4000 as that has native Zorro slots as opposed to using a mad array on an A1200.
I'm not looking for "well it should be" answers, just actual tests and results on the topic.
Cheers,
Ex
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Dunno bout the 12MB, but anything claiming 50MB/s for an
Zorro3 interface (which both Promo and Mediator use) can be
disregarded as pur marketing BS.
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Yes, but the Mediator 4000D plugs into the actual motherboard itself on the daughterboard connectors, so I assume that is faster than the speed of a single Zorro III interface.
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Out of curiosity, why do you want to keep your ISA slots?!
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Bridgeboard and stuff. I just like "things" in my Amiga.
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I'd guess that the 50 MB/s is a reference to the
PCI-PCI DMA access speed in case you are eg DMA'ing from
an ethernet board to the videoram of a PCI gfxboard.
Not that I see the actual use for it but the theoretical
figure is correct. Now you just have to figure out what
you can do with ethernet frames residing on the gfx board
without beeing to access them by the cpu at that speed :)
regards,
Stefan
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@NightShade737:
As Kronos pointed out, the 50MB/Sec values are nothing more than a wet fantasy of the Elbox pr-department. Expect 9-10MB/Sec as a maximum with the Mediator Zorro3 solutions and an accelerator which interfaces well with the CPU-FastSlot. The Zorro3 bus is capable of more, but I have not seen any mediator solutions giving much better numbers than that (feel free to correct me if I am wrong).
The daughterboard connector on the motherboard is just a big connector holding the signals for the video-bus, the Zorro3-bus and some various signals for controlling the individual aspects of the Zorro3 slots. The datapath is the same as the one shared amongst all Zorro3 slots so it would be equally fast to interface the Zorro3 bus there as on the daughterboard itself.
The Mediator and Prometheus should be rather equal in performance.
/Patrik
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Cool, thanks for clearing that up.
Just a few final questions then:
Has Bus-Mastering been sorted out on the boards yet?
and are there drivers available for the following:
Voodoo 3 and Voodoo 5
3com 950C Cards
Realtek 8139 NICs
SiS909 NICs
and SB128 cards (Ensonique 1371 chipset)
I mention the 3com cards as it would be a good idea, because the cards are very cheap to get, and are managed with checksum offloading, which would be very useful for the slower processors in Amigas.
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Here you have the Prometheus drivers. Busmastering is beeing solved soon. :-)
Prometheus Drivers (http://www.matay.pl/developer/en/index.html)
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@crusher
Shhhh.. You don't want to wake the FUD master;-)
re Prometheus DMA:
Announcement coming soon:-)
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NightShade737 wrote:
and are there drivers available for the following:
Voodoo 3 and Voodoo 5
Yes, both.
3com 950C Cards
Neither.
Realtek 8139 NICs
Mediator only.
SiS909 NICs
Neither.
and SB128 cards (Ensonique 1371 chipset)
Mediator only.
Regarding the 3Com Nic. Sure, they are cheap, but you can get a RealTech 8139 for $.99 on eBay. Can't get cheaper than that.
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Regarding the 3Com Nic. Sure, they are cheap, but you can get a RealTech 8139 for $.99 on eBay. Can't get cheaper than that.
Thats not the point, read my reason.
Hmmm, I don't think buying a promo would be the best thing to do then as it doesn't have drivers for anything I own, and still doesn't support BM :-(
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redrumloa wrote:
@crusher
Shhhh.. You don't want to wake the FUD master;-)
re Prometheus DMA:
Announcement coming soon:-)
Woops sorry :-D Busmastering, TBA :-P
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Realtek 8139 NICs
Mediator only.
Don't be too sure there. The promethius I have happens to have a 8139 on it.
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@downix
Don't be too sure there. The promethius I have happens to have a 8139 on it.
It is nothing interesting to have the not-working card fitted in the PCI slot :)
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@Crusher
Busmastering, TBA :-P
The next announcement about the Prometheus busmastering? :-D
Prometheus producer was well known for advertising not-existing Prometheus features and not-working Prometheus drivers. Now Anachronism/Redrumloa goes the same way.
Prometheus busmastering has always existed in the Prometheus advertisements. Unfortunately, it has existed in the advertisements ONLY. In the Prometheus hardware this feature has NEVER worked correctly.
1) In five days will be exactly THREE YEARS from the first announcement (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42192) (from March 29, 2001) about the Prometheus busmastering. You can read there:
'Real transfer rates between PCI cards - up to 120 MB/s.
Together with the "Prometheus" card we bundle a CD-ROM with:
Drivers for a sound card and a network card.'
As in the Prometheus transfers between the PCI cards (= busmastering) do not work, the real transfer rates are rather nearby 0MB/s than 120MB/s. Also this sound driver is still a fiction.
2) The second official announcement (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Prometheus/message/1065) about the Prometheus busmastering and about not-existing-up-to-today drivers is from January 8, 2002. You can read there:
'From now on, "Prometheus" can operate more PCI cards, and especially Fast Ethernet cards, TV tuners and soundcards. The drivers for these cards will appear very quickly after we do the upgrade. The first one will probably be available in this month.'
3) The current status (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Prometheus/message/1325) of the Prometheus hardware and Prometheus driver support was accurate described in the Prometheus ML. You can read there:
'There is no working on prometheus drivers for usb pci cards.
There is no working DMA support and Busmastering.
Also OpenPCI is not working too..
Still only Voodoo3 and Ethernet 10M/Bit are supported !'
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See what I mean about waking the FUD master?
Oh well, he will be in court soon :roflmao:
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@tjaoz
Seems to work to me. Unless you're saying that telepathic powers are typing this into aorg.
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Apparently the 8139 drivers are "highly unstable", but still...
So, are there ever likely to be any drivers for any of the things I have, and is there ever likely to be Bus Mastering support? I am really not interested in "TBA" statements as that means nothing. I want to know if it will have it or not, and roughly when, end of. I need to make a decision on one or the other, and I would not be impressed to buy something, only to find that what I need is never going to happen, as that would be an expensive mistake, and one that I will not make.
The main thing that has me worried is the constant conflicting information, and the slow, if even barely existant progress on OpenPCI/Promo drivers.
Though aside from all that, it would still be interesting to see Promo/Mediator 4000D side by side comparisons in the same machine, though I doubt anyone has ever or would ever do it.
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@downix
Seems to work to me. Unless you're saying that telepathic powers are typing this into aorg.
You do not distinguish reality from dreams.
Last time (in the 'Re: PCI for genuine 4000T' thread) you insisted on that 200 Polish zl, for which Grzegorz Kraszewski (Prometheus designer) was offering (http://tinyurl.com/2mvzp) the Prometheus boards, was equal 160 EUR. As I proved you, 200 zl was equal 45.18 EUR.
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@NightShade737
Though aside from all that, it would still be interesting to see Promo/Mediator 4000D side by side comparisons in the same machine, though I doubt anyone has ever or would ever do it.
I found the website of someone, who has Prometheus and Mediator A4000D.
He describes his opinion about both PCI busboards at www.skolbe.de/PCI.html (http://www.skolbe.de/PCI.html) and at www.skolbe.de/PCI1.html (http://www.skolbe.de/PCI1.html)
The sites are in German so you need to use the translation service e.g. http://babelfish.altavista.com (http://babelfish.altavista.com/).
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Ok, I agree with his driver statement, but it doesn't get me any further. He doesn't benchmark either of them, nevermind against each other, so its pretty useless. Infact he doesn't say much other than his oppinions.
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@NightShade737
He doesn't benchmark either of them, nevermind against each other, so its pretty useless.
The only benchmark comparison between Prometheus and Mediator I found in the Prometheus ML. See here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Prometheus/message/156).
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Yeah, comparing a 3640 relying on the A4000's f###ed-up
RAM-interface with a Blizzard (or Apollo) makes soooooo
much sense .....
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@tjaoz
:roll:
Stop it, you are killing me :lol:
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Yeah, but as I said, that comparison is still useless as they are completely different machines, to quote:
>> Prometheus with 68040/25 MHz (A3640) + Voodoo3 800x600x32,
>> Mediator with 1240/25 + Voodoo3 800x600x32.
that accounts for some of the difference.
The Blizzard 1240/25 has _much_ faster memory access than the crippled 040/25 on
an A3640.
Some functions in our Voodoo3 driver have no hardware acceleration yet.
Draw() and RectFillPattern() mainly. Also you should take into account,
Apollo 1240/25 is much (about 50%) faster than A3460. A3640 hasn't its
own memory, it uses memory placed on A4000 motherboard, which is very
slow compared to memory on Apollo. Also Mediator is connected to
Expansion Slot, which is faster than Zorro III, especially with Apollo
cards.
ETC. Any useful references?
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tjaoz wrote:
@NightShade737
He doesn't benchmark either of them, nevermind against each other, so its pretty useless.
The only benchmark comparison between Prometheus and Mediator I found in the Prometheus ML. See here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Prometheus/message/156).
ROFL!
Sure an A1200 040 card (complete with local memory) versus an A3640 - like that's a fair contest :lol:
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Oh man, here we go again. :flame:
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@NightShade737
Totally off topic, love the avatar. Syndicate is one of my all time favourite games ;-)
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downix wrote:
Realtek 8139 NICs
Mediator only.
Don't be too sure there. The promethius I have happens to have a 8139 on it.
I took all of the driver info from the "official" driver pages. Beta/test drivers weren't listed for download, so I didn't include them.
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NightShade737 wrote:
Regarding the 3Com Nic. Sure, they are cheap, but you can get a RealTech 8139 for $.99 on eBay. Can't get cheaper than that.
Thats not the point, read my reason.
Ok, I see what you wrote about the checksum offloading. I'm not sure how CPU intensive this is though. Also, some of the RealTek 8139 line support checksum offloading, but the driver would need to be modified to accomidate this. Perhaps Elbox would do this if there was enough demand.
Hmmm, I don't think buying a promo would be the best thing to do then as it doesn't have drivers for anything I own, and still doesn't support BM :-(
I think that is the key. If the Prometheus doesn't have support for the hardware you want to run, then you have other choices.
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@adolescent:
The TCP/IP stack has to be aware of the tcp-package checksum offloading or else it will still calculate it the good old fashion way using the cpu.
/Patrik
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@NightShade737
I just reread your first post:
Now the reason I am torn is the fast that I would like to keep my ISA slots as well though, and buying a Mediator would kick out all my ISA slots.
You can keep your ISA slots using Mediator 3/4000T.
This Mediator is installed in one of the Zorro III slots. It doesn't have to be installed in the lowest Zorro III slot. When you install it in higher Zorro III slot you will save the space for your ISA cards. More info about this Mediator you can find here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45311 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45311)
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I had seen that one before, but couldn't quite work out where the hell it was supposed to fit in. Does the Zorro slot on the board go through and plug in to a Zorro slot below? If so this may be the solution I need... though I would need to find out how far up it would go and if it would actually fit...
But on the other hand, would one of the other mediators be faster as they connect in to the entire Daughterboard connector, or does it still only use the bandwidth of one Zorro III slot? That is what has been confusing me.
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@NightShade737
I had seen that one before, but couldn't quite work out where the hell it was supposed to fit in. Does the Zorro slot on the board go through and plug in to a Zorro slot below? If so this may be the solution I need... though I would need to find out how far up it would go and if it would actually fit...
Ask Elbox. They are very friendly and quickly reply to all technical inquiries.
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@Nightshade
Even if they occupy the daughterboard slot, one cannot get more bandwidth out of Z3 than you could with 1 slot. Zorro is not like PCI, where you can "double-up" slots to get more performance.
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@NightShade737
If you'd like, I can do a benchmark for my Prommy against my Mediator.
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Ah, so basically, 1 board uses the entire bus anyway? So if you were running 2 cards at once then they would have to share that bandwidth? That makes sense, I just assumed that the slots would be limited and the daughterboard could handle more, but apparently not.
Cheers.
downix: What type of Mediator and what machine? But, yes, if you could. Also bench the same NIC in both if you can.
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Zorro is not like PCI, where you can "double-up" slots to get more performance.
That's {bleep}. Sorry.
PCI is like Zorro in the bus philosophy, with the main difference that Zorro is asynchonous by nature, but PCI is synchronous with a master clock distributed over all PCI connectors.
You have one bus segment, which can be used by one card at a time. Period.
Bandwidth can be increased for both bus systems by either increasing the bus clock (PCI) / shortening the strobes (Zorro3); by adding more data lines (PCI32 -> PCI64, Zorro II -> Zorro III) or by switching to block transfer modes (Zorro III -> MultiCycleTransfer, PCI -> BurstMode).
In both cases: one device using the bus will lock the others out.
This only changes if you go for switched serial busses, like ATM networks or new PCI-X systems.
Michael
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So, is it completely established now that a PCI interface on a Zorro III slot is exactly the same speed as one plugged in to the entire Daughterboard slot (theoretically)?
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If you'd like, I can do a benchmark for my Prommy against my Mediator.
Yeah... That'd be really cool. I think everyone would be interested in the results. Put an end to the FUD. Run a P96 speed, an AmiMark, and a ttcp on each, and post the results.
I'm very interested to see what the differences show up as. And how much difference a PCI NIC vs a Zorro NIC makes, etc... (Personally, I'd suspect Prommy and Mediator show similiar performance, but who knows? I don't think it's ever been done before.)
Real information is always good!
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downix wrote:
@NightShade737
If you'd like, I can do a benchmark for my Prommy against my Mediator.
That might put an end to the debate. I have a small tool you can try (but due to laziness in the build it needs FPU), which basically sees how fast it can do aligned transfers to/from VRAM (and also RAM to RAM). It doesn't test anything using graphics.library, so should be driver independent...
here... (http://www.nyteshade.com/karlos/util/exng_util_pixeltest2004-03-23.lzx)
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A4k, and the A4kD mediator.
(I haven't gotten it yet, mind you. Terminills offered me the use of his old one so I could do such a head-to-head, so I figured I'd offer it publically. Come on Terminills, send the mediator)
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@mboehmer_e3b
Half-true. You forgot, you can "stack up" PCI providing you have multiple PCI busses. (example being a northbridge with two PCI busses, I've seen some very odd embedded machines using both for the same peripheral for added performance) It is this ability that was extended for PCI-Express (not PCI-X, don't mix the two) for their multiple-bus model.
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@Karlos
Thanks.
Now reminder, even if the Promethius is found slower than the Mediator, the Promethius is a lot cheaper than the other solution.
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@downix
Now reminder, even if the Promethius is found slower than the Mediator, the Promethius is a lot cheaper than the other solution.
Certainly. Though it is good to have a numerical idea of the real-world performance difference (or lack thereof) between the two solutions. I still suspect both systems will post similiar numbers. What are the rest of the specs for your test system, Downix?
If the prommy turns in a solid performance, it would, indeed, make it a VERY tempting goodie. (I have an extra Voodoo3 and RTL8139 sitting here...)
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@Ilwrath
I have 2 setups that will be used on each card
System 1:
68030 28Mhz w FPU
16MB fast RAM
1GB HD
OS 3.1
System 2:
68060-50 & 604e 233
64MB Fast RAM
9GB HD
OS 3.9
The logic here is simple, don't have a driver that better utilizes the CPU to "edge out" the competition. Also, if the cards utilize non-DMA modes, you'll clearly see it thanks to the weak CPU on System 1. By having both cards on both a high-end and a low-end, and comparing them side-by-side, you can get a better idea where the CPU loads are found, and where better driver utilization is.
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@downix
Hmm :-) *watches with intrest*
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Half-true. You forgot, you can "stack up" PCI providing you have multiple PCI busses. (example being a northbridge with two PCI busses, I've seen some very odd embedded machines
Right, downix. I was speaking about one bus segment, but splitting up the bus into several segments is possible (with additional PCI-BCI bridges).
Anyhow, you can use this for speeding up data transfers between PCI cards on each segment, but for the processor itself it won't make much difference, as still only one is available :) The data rate on one segment will still stay the same.
using both for the same peripheral for added performance) It is this ability that was extended for PCI-Express (not PCI-X, don't mix the two) for their multiple-bus model.
You may also use two Zorro busses :)
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@mboehmer_e3b
Slight difference, you can bridge to get more PCI, plus there are north/southbridges with multiple PCI bus channels off of them. Last time I checked, noone made a double Zorro3 controller. (which would be interesting to see, actually)
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@nate
Just shipped them today... only like 3 months late mind you ... but hey it's on it's way now...
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Terminills wrote:
@nate
Just shipped them today... only like 3 months late mind you ... but hey it's on it's way now...
Thanks pal.
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@Nightshade737
Actually, the Mediator doesn't plug directly into the daughterboard slot. It consists of two different pieces:
1. New daughterboard with inactive PCI slots, replaces the original one.
2. Zorro -> PCI bridge that interfaces the inactive PCI slots on the new daughterboard to the Zorro bus.
So the mediator interfaces it's PCI bus through the Zorro-bus, just like the Prometheus. No speed gain there, just a much neater and prettier solution.
The G-Rex, on the other hand, should be fastest solution, as it is connected to the "PCI"(?) slot on the Cyberstorm MK3 boards. But I believe the G-Rex is no longer being produced.
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Oh, and if the Mediator eventually interfaced directly on the daughterboard, it wouldn't make any difference, as the daughterboard-connector is just "plain Zorro". The daughterboard is nothing but a riser-card.
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Morley: Yeah, I worked out the inactive and bridge thing, but thanks for clarifying it. Also thanks for clearing up the other info though.
Hmm, wouldn't it be useful if someone made new G-Rex boards... *cough*Schoenfield*cough*Power Computing*cough*.
Still waiting for the comparison of the Promethus and the Mediator though...
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NightShade737 wrote:
Morley: Yeah, I worked out the inactive and bridge thing, but thanks for clarifying it. Also thanks for clearing up the other info though.
Hmm, wouldn't it be useful if someone made new G-Rex boards... *cough*Schoenfield*cough*Power Computing*cough*.
Still waiting for the comparison of the Promethus and the Mediator though...
Well, there's the unscientific approach...
GOOGLEFIGHT!
mediator PCI ( 12 100 results) versus prometheus PCI ( 5 240 results)
The winner is: mediator PCI
damn.
rematch!!
[troll]
mediator trojan ( 21 400 results) versus prometheus trojan ( 8 480 results)
The winner is: mediator trojan
[/troll]
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@Nightshade737
Well, Vesalia (http://www.vesalia.de/) still has the A1200, A4000D and A4000T versions of the G-Rex listed on their web-site. Looks like the A4000T and A1200 versions are in stock, as they have prices tagged onto them, but the 4000D version has "call" instead of the price tagged onto it...doh.
Lucky me has a 4000T, just needs some money :-D
How is driver support for the G-Rex going, btw? Anybody know?
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Does the G-Rex use the same drivers as the Promethus? (OpenPCI) As the drivers are the only thing I am worried about...
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@Nightshade737
Yes, OpenPCI is supported by the G-Rex, (or visa-versa? :-) ), but there aren't many drivers available. GFXcard support looks good though.
When it comes to drivers, it looks like Mediator has the best "coverage", but...I don't like RDB killing code in my drivers, no matter the reason behind it.
Check out the german G-Rex homepage (http://www.amiga-grex.de/). There are some forums there, in german sadly, which answers a lot of questions regarding the G-Rex.
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At least the advantage of OpenPCI is that G-Rex and Promethus both benefit from it, so if drivers are made for the one, they will work on the other. At the moment the G-Rex seems like a better option for me... but on the other hand, it would be nice to see comparisons of all 3 in the same machine...
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So, how are those benchmarks coming along? Would be even better if you could find a G-Rex to try too as that seems to be the most appealing option right now.