Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: AmiDelf on March 19, 2004, 02:30:04 PM
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What is the reason things is like they are? Amiga users deserves more than this?
Don't you agree with that?
Well. For me, I am now restarting with my development of amigaworld.org, because I've got MorphOS installed on my new PegasosII 600MHz.
Does this mean that I fully ignore Amiga INC? No, it isn't. Because, sure both of these products is superb, and I have allmost no negative words to say about MorphOS. AmigaOS4 is yet to be seen.
Why can't all Amiga developers go tougether and create a webpage on-line wich contains Amiga-MOS developer stuff. Why? Because MorphOS is as much as a AmigaOS as AmigaOS4 is.
The difference here, is that MorphOS is actually out and people can develope for it. The public is there to help it out. Thats what helped Amiga when no one owned our beloved Amiga.
Dopus v5 came, Phase 5 developed PPC cards and things happened in the background all the time. Really neat. Then Amiga INC took it all over, and the development has halted, until MorphOS actually got released.
This is the reason why I have choosen MorphOS. Its free for everyone to develope something on. I would sure go for AmigaOS4 if this was the case for it too, but it isn't. Its as silent as a sleeping elephant :)
Well. AmigaOS4 developers should help out MorphOS and opposite. And in the end, one of these OS's have to emerge to each other. If there is a chance to win over MacOS X, then we need more armour, more bazookas and such.
Let's start to work tougether now!
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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In last Sunday's New York Times, there's a photo of a mourner in Seville who's taped a sign on his umbrella: "NO AL TERRORISMO."
(My thoughts to those caught up in that, by the way.)
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How's the "New Amiga" comming?
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> Does this mean that I fully ignore Amiga INC? No, it isn't. Because, sure both of these [snip]
Amiga Inc don't own AmigaOS anymore, a company called KMOS does apparently, and before that another company called Itec did.
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@Amidelf,
While I share a bit of your frustration, all of this comes down to egos and nothing more. People can pretend that there are licensing issues, but there aren't. Personal ego however is the strongest of all causes and people won't get involved with people they don't like.
It's EXACTLY this reason that McEwen didn't license OS4 to Bill Buck in the first place. It wasn't economics, it wasn't licensing issues, it was the fact that Buck in some way pissed off McEwen (and I'm sure it runs both ways), so McEwen refused to license the OS development to him (otherwise we'd already have "AmigaOS4" in the form of MorphOS).
Buck as a result of ego went off on a different -- and apparently more successful -- path. That is of course presuming that Buck didn't give McEwen all the ideas and strategies they had as he claims to have done. (reference Buck's claims on Moobunny and ANN)
Confidence is good, egotism is bad. Seperating the two is difficult when you're on the inside staring out.
Wayne
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Let's start to work tougether now![/quote
True its the only way forwards.
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Then maybe KMOS can give Genesi some part of the code.
We want all a greater future. People needs to learn how to behave and have personal and job thoughts on each sides.
I feel that Amiga and Genesi is like Palestina and Israel. Now we build a biiig fence, so no one can cross it.
Grrr,...
Why cant we as the community show how good we are actually? Because in the 90s we worked tougether. Now MorphOS should get all of the attention. Because its so much further in development than AmigaOS4. Its sad, but true :(
The same thing when we worked at studies here in groups. Creating ideas, manuscripts for movie and such. There was 2 canditates and offcourse we had deadline. I am the leader of the group and since the one had a complete manuscript in time before deadline and the other person didn't. I choosed it and thats it.
We should go for what we have, implement those good things in AOS4 and give it to MorphOS and let that be the next OS.
Pegasos also needs a better Open Firmware if its going to want to release this thing to the masses out there. Also fixes of the MorphOS installation and more.
We can work tougether! Yes we can!
We have to go for whats out and whats useable. MorphOS is far, far more stable than AmigaOS v3.9 It has its bugs, but they are minimal.
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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What about your new computer Michal?
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AmiDelf wrote:
Then maybe KMOS can give Genesi some part of the code.
Why on earth would anyone want OS4 code in MorphOS?
:-?
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@takemehomegrandma
Is that a burning cross in your avatar? :-o
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This sort of comments is what blocking it all. Why?
AmigaOS4 sure got lots of nice things wich MorphOS dosen't have. It can all be the best OS for everyone if we take different cake types and eats them into one mouth.
Sure there is people against this. People is against everything, but needs to be learned, then they say oki. You have to learn that..
MorphOS is out now! Its out for the public. AmigaOS4 is not and is delayed 2 weeks and 2 weeks all the time. How is that possible to be such liars to the community? I feel betrayed by Hyperion and Amiga INC.
Genesi might not be perfect neither, but this company is creating a strong community at the moment, which by the time AmigaOS4 get released, will be stronger than ever. And very hard to destroy or getting people to sell their PegasosII computers for AmigaONE!
I just think that AmigaONE and Pegasos should both be Open to each other, and let these OS's and the community decide the fate and not the companies. Thats in the past, now we are in 2004. Yes, as you read 2*0*0*4
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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@ takemehomegrandma
I second Cyberus's comment about your avatar, with my moderator hat on...
@ AmiDelf
AmigaOS4 sure got lots of nice things wich MorphOS dosen't have.
Not backing up that statement is going to get you a load of people asking you to, so... please back up that statement :-)
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While I share a bit of your frustration, all of this comes down to egos and nothing more. People can pretend that there are licensing issues, but there aren't. Personal ego however is the strongest of all causes and people won't get involved with people they don't like.
Well we agree with most of what you said here.However, BBRV certainly said there were lisencing issues.
It's EXACTLY this reason that McEwen didn't license OS4 to Bill Buck in the first place. It wasn't economics, it wasn't licensing issues, it was the fact that Buck in some way pissed off McEwen (and I'm sure it runs both ways), so McEwen refused to license the OS development to him (otherwise we'd already have "AmigaOS4" in the form of MorphOS).
I would sincerely like to see any factual evidence you have of B.McEwens intentions in this regard.
Buck as a result of ego went off on a different -- and apparently more successful -- path. That is of course presuming that Buck didn't give McEwen all the ideas and strategies they had as he claims to have done. (reference Buck's claims on Moobunny and ANN)
Well this remains to be seen, and only time will tell in fullness.
Bottom line in this topic is that Amiga Inc. is no longer at the party at all, as far as we know.Until we know more information we can pretty well forget about them as far as A1/os4 and Pegasos/morphos goes.
I think things have gone too far down the line to really bring them back together, and when AOS4 I think we will see the two "camps" go thier seperate ways, something that I feel should probably happen now. On the other hand, maybe Kmos can somehow meld it back together, there no longer is an "ego" issue here.
My personal feelings are that as long as BBRV is involved with Genesi, then I want nothing at all to do with them.Not saying the product they have is inferior in anyway.
Perhaps KMOS, if it has as much money as has been implied, should buy Morphos and the pegasos as well and solve the issue once and for all lol
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Confidence is good, egotism is bad. Seperating the two is difficult when you're on the inside staring out.
Amen to THAT, brother!
It's why I never wanted to get involved in any of this fighting nonsense. it's such a bore!
I just think that AmigaONE and Pegasos should both be Open to each other, and let these OS's and the community decide the fate and not the companies. Thats in the past, now we are in 2004
That's why (several weeks agao, now) I wrote about "Amiga Heroes". We are here to help each other and we have to understand that no company is going to care about us like WE do. We are the ones who have been loyal to a computer IDEA. so we should be loyal to each other.
talk is cheap and all i've ever heard from "heads" of companies is cheap talk. ignore them all.
actions are what counts and each Amiga programmer/artist who has ever made anything for the community is the ONLY people deseving of respect.
lets be good to each other.
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I feel sure that for the present, at least, there can't be that many differences between Mos & AmigaOS4 for software to be written for either, or for both.
Could not Applications, Services, and Games, for BOTH Platforms be marketed on just ONE CD with individual Installers to be able to install just the particular components required for running on either system?
For instance, in the past there have been cases of the ONE MEDIA containing TWO versions of a piece of software: like the game Blasteroids ( 1987 TENGEN. 1989 MIRRORSOFT Ltd.) which was marketed on a 3.5" diskette as DUAL FORMAT for PC & COMPATIBLES/CBM AMIGA.
Surely if THAT could work, a media could contain DUAL FORMAT MOS/AOS4 install versions?
:-?
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I would sincerely like to see any factual evidence you have of B.McEwens intentions in this regard.
That came out in the closed UGN meeting at the Amiga 2001 show (I believe it was 2001) when McEwen stated emphatically that;
"If someone pisses me off, even once, I will never work with that person. Ever."
He said same to me on the phone +/- 6 months of that same time period many times when we were still speaking in regards to the UGN, ADN, and other concepts that I originated.
Whether you consider that "evidence" or not is irrelevant to me, because I see it happening here. It is very obvious now to anyone who spoke with McEwen around that same time (the EXACT same time that this issue really started) that the McEwen versus Buck issue boils down to ego versus ego. Put all the legal {bleep} aside, and you're left with ego, which is my point.
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Well that just leaves mre questions.Nevertheless it is a moot point now as Amiga Inc. seem to be out of the picture now entirely
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yeah who cares about amiga inc and genesi? Two small companys who rather spent all their money on ridiculous court cases than to pay their employees. As long as kmos and hyperion dont go bust I dont give a ****... 8-)
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@ AmiDelf
MorphOS 1.5 and OS4 seems to be released at the same time - when it's
done! ;-) :-D What will OS4 have that MorphOS won't? Why would I want
to use OS4 instead of MorphOS? Why would I want OS4 code in MorphOS,
when MorphOS is doing fine on its own merits?
@ Cyberus and Mikeymike
No, that's a ... ermm, part of a burning barn!
No actually, you are right. I made that avatar a long time ago when I
was a little upset about the arrangers behind AmiGBG's policies and
views (there is only one, true, pure k-k-kommunity). I actually
removed it earlier and replaced it with my "original" xoops avatar.
But when this new xoops engine was launched it seems like it got
switched back somehow. I will change it, but I have not had the time
to make a new one yet ...
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I think the reason the AmigaOS and MorphOS groups cannot get along is because the AmigaOS4 supporters believe that the only way to raise the platform in the public eye, to its previous stature is by the name on the box. I agree.
Calling something a Pegasos doesn't cut it. Its not about Morphos, as such, being a bad OS. This also does not mean that Pegasos is a bad machine, it may even be superior to the Amiga One in some ways.
However, the Amiga One will eventually be released as THE AMIGA even though its done by Eyetech. The OS it will run will be released as AMIGA OS4 even though it was created by Hyperion and owned by KMOS. The companies that created it, are by necessity irrelevant, its the official AMIGA in the title that lends it legitimacy(along with arguably some sort of involvement with Amiga Inc).
Then for the first time since Commodore's demise the Amiga platform may have a chance at public legitimacy as an alternative platform, akin to a Mac.
The Pegasos, through no fault of its own, actually subverts this public legitimacy from happening, and I would imagine there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way. It subverts by drawing developer resources and early customers away from what will ultimately be the root system.
We are grateful for Genesi's interest in maintaining the platform, but its time in the spotlight will shortly be over. Sorry, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. Buck's desperate attempts to obtain the Amiga logo through litigation, to legitimise the platform in some way, will ultimately be to no avail regardless as to whether he is successful or not.
IMHO this whole discussion will 'one day'(wanted to say soon) be rendered irrelevant given what will ultimately be the huge demand that will be generated in the Amiga One. Amiga One units will outnumber the Pegasos so incredibly quickly once it is released that the market will determine the true Amiga successor.
Pegasos is out, and while it has engendered some passion it will never be able to engender the passion that is required to become a mainstream platform. And ultimately that is what we all want.
Pegasos will be relegated to the scrap heap of history like every other go faster board that ever graced a classic Amiga. Its sad for Genesi, having contributed so much.
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What about the people that hates them both? 8-)
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IMHO this whole discussion will 'one day'(wanted to say soon) be rendered irrelevant given what will ultimately be the huge demand that will be generated in the Amiga One. Amiga One units will outnumber the Pegasos so incredibly quickly once it is released that the market will determine the true Amiga successor.
not being Criswell, I can't say what the future will be, but I suspect that people will use whatever they have or want.
I mean, even now people are using Amithalon dispite the fact that it's not really being "developed". I still look at the mailing list with it's various users looking for solutions to this or that problem.
People are starting to get interested in AROS, people like me use WinUAE. and still use thier old amigas.
an amiga is anything that FEELS like an amiga. and it turns out that alot of diifferent software and hardware solutions have fallen into that category.
The amiga will never again just be ONE kind of box and one OS.
The versatlity of having amiga on anything I can have is too nice.
the future is more diversity, not less.
this really has little to do with MorphOS vs OS4.
personally, i'd love to see OS4. and AROS, and amiga on cel phones. amiga on everything, actually.
What about the people that hates them both?
Windows users :lol:
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@BigBen
How nice to see the thread go this way. If you truely want to see OS4 fail, then, by all means, continue to have that elitist attitude towards MorphOS.
With attitudes of this nature, you succeed in doing nothing but ensuring that developers who may continue projects for both platforms decide not to. I do not want to sound harsh, but every comment like that I hear (read) makes me want to request for all my contributions to the aminet be pulled. They make me want to ask other developers to do the same. They make me not want to pick up a copy of OS4 if given the chance.
Yes, MorphOS users can be just as guilty of being elitists. "Hyperion didn't know what an Amiga was before 1999," or "Those Name-Bangers are only trying to rip off what was supposed to be the real next-gen Amiga," and other such comments are just as bad. I think the person who started this thread was trying to help everyone understand that *we are* in this together, like it or not, and we should have some kind of minimal level of acceptance of one another. Holier than thou attitudes does nothing but hurt both sides.
More flies are drawn with honey than vinegar, and you would do well to remember that.
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BigBenAussie wrote:
MHO this whole discussion will 'one day'(wanted to say soon) be rendered irrelevant given what will ultimately be the huge demand that will be generated in the Amiga One. Amiga One units will outnumber the Pegasos so incredibly quickly once it is released that the market will determine the true Amiga successor.
Not unless they can get cheaper hardware. Preferably cheaper hardware that works properly.
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Preferably cheaper hardware that works properly.
oooooh, nice flamebait KennyR lol.
I am sure that will happen when Genesi port Morphos to the Amigaone
Here is a thought, now that KMOS now has rights to the OS, do they have the power to develop or have developed, or allow development of Amithlon II?
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Rayt: As long as kmos and hyperion dont go bust I dont give a ****...
As long as someone releases something, I don't give a ****. At least MorphOS is on schedule and rockin'.
Mr U No Hoo: No, that's a ... ermm, part of a burning barn!
How long have you had that avatar, and how many complaints have you gotten so far? :-)
BigBenAussie: However, the Amiga One will eventually be released as THE AMIGA even though its done by Eyetech
What's in a name? That doesn't change the fact that Amiga has been dead for over a decade and the rest of the industry has moved on and made huge improvements to their OS models. I'm still fuming over the fact that OS4 won't support a real security model, in the form of accounts. No real OS should be without that.
I see no point in cloning an obsolete design. MacOS X really showed us something new: make UNIX look-n-feel like a Mac. I haven't used MacOS X personally (though I have seen it in action and have seen how slow it is), but it seems like an interesting starting point for a new OS.
Jose: What about the people that hates them both?
Well put. I'm not terribly interested in a true Amiga. I'm looking for a new OS that's a serious alternative to Windows and Amiga-ish. I've tried 9 different Linux distros so far, and they all drove me nuts. Be is dead, QNX is too raw, AROS isn't terribly stable, Macs are too damned expensive (among other problems)...
Cecilia: The amiga will never again just be ONE kind of box and one OS.
A completely obsolete idea, the closed computer. My brother-in-law works as a programmer for Nokia, and apparently, EVERYTHING in the universe will be programmed in Java in a couple years. Apparently, nobody uses C++ in that company, anymore.
KennyR: Not unless they can get cheaper hardware. Preferably cheaper hardware that works properly.
They decided to use proprietary hardware despite their "Amiga Anywhere" initiative. They decided to build their own hardware despite the fact they know nothing about manufacturing. They settled on a wimpy, little-known PowerPC chipset when powerful, robust, competitive, and well-tested x86 chipsets were staring them in the face.
Then again, they also decided to sell the hardware years before the OS is ready...
Funny how the A1200 connector in the AmigaOne sounded like such a stupid idea when Amithlon came along, but people still think proprietary hardware bearing the Amiga name will trump any sort of hardware independence. I've been hoping for a truly architecture independent system ever since I used AMOS. The future is in run-time systems. I don't like Java, but it's a good example of which direction things are headed.
IonDeluxe: Here is a thought, now that KMOS now has rights to the OS, do they have the power to develop or have developed, or allow development of Amithlon II?
Who is KMOS? Who's the president? Where's their website? Who cares? It's just the same old story of trading hands and no product releases.
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Why is it every time I post it goes on a new page? :-)
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Hehe :)
Well, I love my PegasosII and I would also like AOS4, but I feel betrayed.
Betrayed as a user, promised false things, never comming out...
amigaworld.org will be on both sides still, but what sort of positive words can I have about AmigaOS4? Nothing!
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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@Targhan
I am sorry you feel that way over my statement of opinion. Unfortunately, at one point or another we have all been guilty of the elitism in owning an Amiga.
My opinion differs from yours. I don't blame you for your opinion, and I am sure you have some valid arguments, just as I feel I do. However, this whole issue is more emotion based than logical. It depends on your passion.
With attitudes of this nature, you succeed in doing nothing but ensuring that developers who may continue projects for both platforms decide not to. I do not want to sound harsh, but every comment like that I hear (read) makes me want to request for all my contributions to the aminet be pulled. They make me want to ask other developers to do the same. They make me not want to pick up a copy of OS4 if given the chance.
So, to summarise, you don't want to play any more and want to pack up your toys and go home.
I wonder why you feel that way, except sour grapes. You have made an investment in hardware that will most likely fail to gain the greatest mindshare. That is lamentable, but the way it is. I have not invested anything, so am neutral in that regard. I am coming in fresh and unfettered. You might argue that makes me ignorant, but if I KNOW that I will be a future Amiga One owner then I don't need to know anything else.
If you are a commercial developer for the Amiga system, YOU WILL HAVE TO make the software OS4 compatible because that will be the market. If you don't you will limit your exposure, and that is fine too. Its entirely your choice, but don't get all pissed off at the fact that most people will choose differently. If I didn't feel that they would choose differently I would already be developing for Morphos, but I'm not am I? You would have every developer under the sun already jumping on Morphos but you don't.
Incidentally, as someone who intends to develop, I would be pleased to support both platforms but its always going to be a port FROM OS4 and it better be easy, because I'm not buying a Pegasos as well as an Amiga One.
Ironically, in this regard, AmigaOS has to survive for Morphos to survive and your investment to be justified because there will ultimately be more developers for that than for Morphos alone.
And you know, I think this is the crux of the entire argument at large. The Pegasos owners/developers want to justify their investment by continuing to develop for it. There is nothing wrong with that as far as they are concerned. They are actually more threatened by OS4 and the Amiga One than the OS4 and Amiga One supporters are concerned about Pegasos and Morphos. That is because they own one already.
The continuation of each of the different platforms will ultimately result in a dilution of their platform, and IMHO this is VERY bad. I think the whole point of the Amiga is that it is Amiga compatible and if Morphos does not maintain compatability with the official Amiga Operating System, then why would you stick with Morphos except if you already own one. In that case I guess future AmigaOS4 owners should not be concerned by what appears to be pot shots by the peg community.
I believe, and maybe its just my opinion, and it is a forum afterall where people are free to present their opinion, but
"There can only be One".
And we all know what that is going to be.
Developing for Morphos will one day be considered as laborious as maintaining legacy code.
I'm sorry if it makes you angry but don't shoot the messenger. The Amiga One is our only hope at becoming a mainstream platform again. If that fails, then Morphos keeps its mantle and you will then be happy at the failure of the Amiga One and the ressurection of the Amiga to the mainstream. Both will linger in no-mans land for good.
With my statements I would think I am actually compelling more developers to develop for AmigaOS than would be lost by Morphos developers refraining their support, but that was not the purpose of my post. I am just picking what seems to me to be the obvious winning platform as far as I am concerned.
Maybe the Pegasos will remain around forever, maybe not, but if you can't see that the greatest hope for the Amiga community at large is the Amiga One then I think you've got rocks in your head. As a Pegasos owner you need it to succeed as well as it will only boost the software that will be available on your system too.
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Waccoon wrote:
They decided to use proprietary hardware despite their "Amiga Anywhere" initiative. They decided to build their own hardware despite the fact they know nothing about manufacturing. They settled on a wimpy, little-known PowerPC chipset when powerful, robust, competitive, and well-tested x86 chipsets were staring them in the face.
The PPC is not the problem. PPC is the best short-term solution for an NG AmigaOS - full backwards compatibility with 68k on x86 is impossible, as the AROS team will tell you. I'm not interested in an OS that doesn't run at least a little of my Amiga software. I might as well skip to Windows or Linux then.
The problem is a broken northbridge and a broken AC97, which was later removed from newer designs. Unfortunately Articia will cripple the A1 design for years to come, no matter how some people try to deny it.
Don't tell me magical x86 chipsets doesn't suffer from bugs - even mass produced, widely used ones. For instance my PC *still* BSODs every six hours or so due to its buggy VIA VT chipset. And the better chipsets are jealously guarded and developer support is non-existent. Even on linux support is poor and patchy. For a niche system like OS4, support would be impossible.
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@BigBenAussie
Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will be an unstoppable market when it comes out? There are currently only 1000 or so A1 users and this will be very lucky to get to 2000. Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown or a laughing stock. People aren't interested in an OS where badly behaved software can bring down the system. People aren't interested in hardware that will cost them a bomb yet still be seriously underpowered by modern standards.
OS4 isn't in a position to dictate any standards. As we've seen, it's already being forced to change to compare to other Amigalike OS's due to user demand. If it was up to users it would already run on Pegasos. Hell, it would even run on PCs. I don't see where you're getting this delusion from that when it comes out it'll have tens of thousands of users and be able to set its own standards. That just isn't going to happen.
I think the whole point of the Amiga is that it is Amiga compatible and if Morphos does not maintain compatability with the official Amiga Operating System, then why would you stick with Morphos except if you already own one.
Because MorphOS is MORE compatible with the original AmigaOS than OS4 is!
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@KennyR
Catching up with your response.
Editing this response.
Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will be an unstoppable market when it comes out?
Not unstoppable in the broad sense, I am not foolish enough to think it will take the world by storm, but the A1/OS4 solution is sure to reinvigorate the platform far more than the Pegasos could ever hope for.
There are currently only 1000 or so A1 users and this will be very lucky to get to 2000.
Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will NOT be an unstoppable market when it comes out?
I think 1000 A1 users without an OS specially built for the hardware speaks for itself. The wiff of OS4 had these people purchasing A1s. Imagine when it actually arrives.
Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown or a laughing stock.
First we get the previous owners who left the system. THEN THE WORLD!!!! MAHAHAHA!!!!
People aren't interested in an OS where badly behaved software can bring down the system.
So you're a windows user. OK. XP is better. Why all this self flagulation? What is wrong with you? Is Morphos getting you down already?
People aren't interested in hardware that will cost them a bomb yet still be seriously underpowered by modern standards.
That's why people were still buying Amiga hardware all these years I guess. Sigh!!! Why are you on this forum then. And you say I'm not helping. Sheesh!!!
The hardware, is what it is, and it can only grow from where it gets. The nice thing about Amiga hardware was that upgrading wasn't madatory. I didn't need an A3000 my A500 was fine. Get it!!! But I could still go and get a go faster board or an A4000. The power users will always be playing catch up and that is fine. Just give me the equivalent of the A500 for now and I'll be fine. That's all I want to see right now.
>>I think the whole point of the Amiga is that it is Amiga
>> compatible and if Morphos does not maintain
>> compatability with the official Amiga Operating System,
>> then why would you stick with Morphos except if you
>> already own one.
>Because MorphOS is MORE compatible with the original >AmigaOS than OS4 is!
You're going to have to face facts that OS4 is the official AmigaOS. If its less compatable than Morphos than the original OS4 right now it most likely wont be for long. If its a problem then I am sure there are other alternatives to get the app running via OS4 just as there would be for MorphOS.
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KennyR wrote:
Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown or a laughing stock.
I'm no Amiga Inc. fan (who is these days?), but I'd be willing to bet the Amiga name is much more widely recognised (regardless of in good or bad sense) than Genesi/Pegasos/Morphos is.
If, as you state, Amiga is a largely unknown laughing stock, what does that say for Peg/MOS, the main point of which is that it is compatible with Amiga?
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BigBenAussie wrote:
However, the Amiga One will eventually be released as THE AMIGA [snip]
The Pegasos, through no fault of its own, actually subverts this public legitimacy from happening, and I would imagine there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way.
The "legitimacy" of "THE AMIGA" is subverted by the simple fact that there is no and will be no more Amiga. AmigaOS is supposed to be running on hardware that third parties bring along to sell under trademark licenses, remember?
It's subverted by the fact that the "AmigaOne" trademark that's currently licensed by Eyetech for distributing Teron motherboards means absolutely nothing at all with regards to the hardware. There's no specification for Amiga hardware. There's no Amiga reference design. Contrary to what the ridiculous excuses for the licensing scheme once said, the hardware that's currently sold hasn't passed any quality, compatibility, or any other kind of certification of AInc's to earn the label. The inane gibberish about "guaranteed supplies", "support", "protection against price gouging" et c. has all turned out to be the pure spucatum tauri (ed: don't throw "bleeps" at me, xoops! ;)) that many saw it was from the very beginning. It's been proven again and again, for each new piece of hardware that has been introduced (sometimes only being in a planning stage is sufficient to earn the label) and/or discontinued as an "AmigaOne". Then it turns out that the "AmigaOne" trademark (the one that's erroneously marketed as "the new Amiga" on e.g. the licensor's own website) actually BELONGS to the hardware dealer that invented the scheme and is the only distributor of licensed hardware.
The only tangible thing that the "AmigaOne" trademark has meant so far is "antiquated and dysfunctional (or discontinued, or not yet available) hardware that's a sh*tload more expensive than the exact same hardware sold without the license".
And this is what AmigaOS has been tied to, not by technical requirements, driver development issues or any other valid reason, but simply because an irrelevant (to AmigaOS) hardware retailer thought it would be nice to out of nothing invent an "Amiga hardware market" to control when his (or Escena's) attempts to actually build a new Amiga failed, and apparently because AInc couldn't give a damn about AmigaOS to simply say "no" to this retailer's idea.
The Amiga One is our only hope at becoming a mainstream platform again.
I nominate that for the "most bizarre statement of the year" category, even though it's only March.
AInc/Eyetech pretending that there's a reason for us to only buy "Amigas" from "Amiga dealers" is what sadly has turned AmigaOS4 (and "all future versions of AmigaOS") into a waste of time. At least if anyone was hoping to increase, or at least stop the shrinking of, the AmigaOS userbase.
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KennyR wrote:
Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown
The pc-kids who has braindamage from playing to much first person shooters doesn´t count, neither does certified microsoft office nerds!
or a laughing stock.
Amiga Inc isn´t even that known!
No, it´s known as the 80s homecomputer with great graphics and smooth scrolling.Amiga=A500 in most peoples minds.
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I agree.
I will order OS4 and an Aone, once the OS is available.
I now have a Peg II, haven't set it up yet (to busy!).
I tried reading both sides of this 'war' and couldn't take a side, I found questionable practices on both sides. I could even argue that Commodore had questionable practices, but those practices weren't enough to prevent me from purchasing Amigas (and even their stock, any buyers out there :-)). I also found questionable practices with Verizon, my dsl provider and other business that I have some interest in. Each person has to be a judge if a company has stepped beyond a moral principle and whether they wish to be a part of it or not. I will not support companies that fund organizations that I'm against and that is easy to monitor, I can't monitor who is the CEO and what he does (within reason).
I simply wanted to run my Amiga apps and have some fun, when I could find a little time. Share my knowledge to assist others in need and have, God willing, an enjoyable life with my family.
I believe the destructive comments aren't helping the Amiga community. The lawsuits being resolved are beyond our control, and we may never know all the facts. If both sides never come together but, at least do their best to support their community then we have something.
Matt
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KennyR wrote:
Not unless they can get cheaper hardware.
I`m with you on that one Kenny, I`m just waiting to see the price of the MicroA1 (or whatever it`s called!),cos there`s no way in hell I`m paying the current asking price of the AmigaOne, no matter how good OS4 turns out. If it`s anymore than £250 then I won`t bother, it`ll either be a PegII or a Mac for me.
It`s not just me,the other day a "PC mad" mate saw the news of the OS4 sale on slashdot, he read it and followed up a few links to try and find out what was so good about it and why I`m still "an amiga nutcase" (his words!).
He said he was almost interested until he saw the price, then when he found out that price was just motherboard&CPU he just laughed.
If other non-amiga users are like this, how is the market supposed to grow?
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Doobrey wrote:
If other non-amiga users are like this, how is the market supposed to grow?
I suppose you already know of one suggestion (http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk)? ;)
Another suggestion seems to be "if someone sticks an Amiga label on hardware X, then people will forget about silly things like price or performance", combined with "everyone will want to buy our OS and Amiga stickers to sell their hardware with".
(Figuratively speaking of course; for $300 extra you don't even get a steenkin' sticker to put on your box.)
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@Doobrey
Um, they began selling the MicroA1 awhile back, it came in more expensive than the A1 IIRC.
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BigBenAussie wrote:
Not unstoppable in the broad sense, I am not foolish enough to think it will take the world by storm, but the A1/OS4 solution is sure to reinvigorate the platform far more than the Pegasos could ever hope for.
The Amiga name is the only advantage they have. They aren't going to invigorate a thing unless they open up the market. That means better customer choice.
Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will NOT be an unstoppable market when it comes out?
I think 1000 A1 users without an OS specially built for the hardware speaks for itself. The wiff of OS4 had these people purchasing A1s. Imagine when it actually arrives.
As you can see from some of the replies here, Amigans are not exactly queuing up for an A1. You'll find much more positive support of the A1 on AmigaWorld - but most of those supporters already have one, either owned or preordered.
There isn't going to be an explosion of sales of the A1. Even without Genesi to take a chunk of the A1's potential userbase, the sad truth is the A1 is just too expensive for the risk. It would get away with it if it had better support and more users, but it doesn't.
So you're a windows user. OK. XP is better. Why all this self flagulation? What is wrong with you? Is Morphos getting you down already?
I use MorphOS 99% of the time, but that's not the point. I couldn't advise someone who's never used AmigaOS to try it. My family couldn't cope if some app crashed and took down the whole system. They couldn't cope with limited Amiga browsers.
The Amigalike OS's and AmigaOS itself are for Amiga lovers only. People may like their speed at first sight, but once they've been crashed and lost work a few times or been told that "there's no software to do that" a few times, suddenly they get a lot less keen.
First we get the previous owners who left the system. THEN THE WORLD!!!! MAHAHAH
Have you ever met any ex-Amigans now using Windows or Linux? They can be the most anti-Amiga people on the planet. They look at AmigaOS with nothing but scorn.
And for the reasons above, not many new users are going to be tempted into spending a very large amount of money on an OS just not suited to them. It's just the way it is.
The hardware, is what it is, and it can only grow from where it gets. The nice thing about Amiga hardware was that upgrading wasn't madatory. I didn't need an A3000 my A500 was fine. Get it!!! But I could still go and get a go faster board or an A4000. The power users will always be playing catch up and that is fine. Just give me the equivalent of the A500 for now and I'll be fine. That's all I want to see right now.
And that's fine with me too. A G3 is pathetic by modern standards but I love it. But I paid about $300 for the Pegasos motherboard, not $800. I was actually planning to get an A1, but the constant delaying of OS4 and the ever-climbing price of the A1 made me promise myself in 2002: if it gets to Autumn 2003 and there is no OS4, I will buy a Pegasos. The deadline came and I got one. I wasn't tempted by Genesi propaganda. I was repelled by the state of affairs in the OS4 camp and it's continuing slide into dogma .
And there are perhaps thousands like me. Unless something is sorted out, and I mean SOON, OS4 will lose all these potential customers to the Pegasos, the PC, and the Mac.
You're going to have to face facts that OS4 is the official AmigaOS.
It doesn't matter to me one bit any more. It's everything I wanted from a PPC AmigaOS. For me, this is the real new AmigaOS.
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Oh, don't think for a second that I don't agree that all the companies involved have acted inappropriately in regards to the greater community.
However, as we stand now, and as far as they are willing to bend, I'll still have that A1 please. We are where we are and whatever the companies have done in the past, there is nowhere else to go. It could be worse.
I would like to remind you that Apple also was going to let people develop clones and stopped them. And whatever happened to IBM's powerPC initiative, its gone by the wayside. Did people actually make any? Where are they? IBM come out in support of Eyetech, like "Wow, somebody actually built one". I think its hard enough to get people to make the hardware as it is for an established platform let alone for an alternative platform like Amiga.
>> The Amiga One is our only hope at becoming a mainstream platform again.
> I nominate that for the "most bizarre statement of the year" category, even though it's only March.
GOOD!!! Go for it. Because I am totally behind that statement. You got a better hope??? Name it???
But none of this mainstream recognition is going to happen until the Amiga is released as a switch on and go box, rather than a motherboard that only the geeks know how to put together. Most people don't want to screw around with all that rubbish. I want a sleek standard ready built box with an A1 in it. And not PC tower either. How are we going to differentiate ourselves if it just looks like any other bit of hardware?
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downix wrote:
@Doobrey
Um, they began selling the MicroA1 awhile back, it came in more expensive than the A1 IIRC.
Yeah, but that was just a small production run for (developers and testing etc), so that`ll push the price up until they do it for real.
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KennyR wrote:
My family couldn't cope if some app crashed and took down the whole system.
Tragic. Families can be so unsupportive at times...
"Look Kenny, we supported you when you became a radical left winger. We supported you through thick and thin.
But now that app crashed the system. It't too much! We're beside ourselves! Dad's hit the bottle, you sis has ran away to god knows where..."
:lol:
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@BigBenAussie
Except name recognition "in itself" guarantees absolutely nothing...
What is amiga remembered as, anyway, amongst those even old enough
to remember it? An 80's gamez platform?? Toaster 2000"s? Random
vaporware awards? I'm going to say most amiga owners didn't
even assosiate 'amiga' with "OS"...that is, how many A500 owners
(which were likely the majority 'out there') even did anything with
the OS to remember it by, other than boot up cracked xcopy?
And you expect these same individuals to get excited enough to
buy $800 sub-1GHz G4 boards, for completely different reasons even??
When they can play UT2004 at half the price for a complete system??
I think "either" OS has advantages/disadvantages purely in regard
to their names...one has practically no recognition in the
mainstream, yet has "hip" labelling and a "catchy" desktop, whilst
the other DOES have limited outside recognition, but could be viewed
as yesterday's throwaway/dinosaur. So I'd say the tables are pretty much
even in those respects...
So if we were to consider that the majority of the market eventually needed
to sustain either platform likely has never even heard of "either"
name, which one has a better advantage, from that angle? Hmmm...I can
hear it now...
"'Omegas', WTF is that, dog?? Oh, Amiga? Is it from Mexico? But whoa, check this
out...MorphOS...Ambient..Trance..etc...hey, that sounds pretty cool"
(this scenario is totally made up BTW...and probably not realistic)
Anyways, getting emotional over a name is something I can't even relate
with...I buy (and bought) computers based primarily upon technical and
economic merits, "hobbies" are dead last, and always the most difficult
to justify financially. Few are those who will pay ridiculous prices
for outdated hardware bearing "the name" of a defunct 80's games platform.
To wrap it up, this whole idea that the throngs are going to exclaim
"OMG WTF" and purchase millions of 800 MHz Eyetech boards just
to run OS4 (and it's overwhelming apps base) is not only downright
ludicrous...but possibly even a little "kooky".
At this stage though this discussion is basically pointless...'BOTH" platforms
are going to have to innovate well beyond their currrent status in order to
gain marketshare, no retarded-ass "product label" is going to do it for them.
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@-D-
I agree with most of what you said.
People don't even associate an OS with Amiga.
Absolutely friggin correct. The allure of the Amiga is something else entirely.
But these people have grown up now. They want to play games ofcourse and do other things too that require an OS. I never said that OS4 is a draw for newbies to an Amiga, in fact, it provides the barest minimum. But in terms of leisure computing that may well be enough.
I see the Amiga platform as being more of a grownups console. The kids are going to buy your X-Box2s and PS3s but the grownups are going to look at an alternative and they will have grown up with one. They will consider the Amiga as a hobby computer, as microcomputers were once considered. If we can get a decent browser going and a few decent games we'll have a start. Make it play and burn DVDs in a settop box and we'll have a tangible media center system. That's where its gotta go, multimedia is the revolution that it started.
But its gotta be slick damn it, even if it is underpowered. And if you care that much about playing your games faster, just pull out the 3d card and chuck another one in. People that care, spend more on them than entire consoles, and these are probably the people that will buy an Amiga despite the exorbitant cost.
You guys are in a different realm to where the Amiga needs to ultimately go. You're power users. The newbies wont care to be at least initially. They would be buying the system for the differentiation that it offers.
I know it seems like a weird thing to say but speed is becoming much less the defining issue in a computer. The slump in PC sales of late caused by lack in demand, is due to what I believe there being no tangible difference in perceived performance, is what I think caused it. A slower specced Amiga will feel choppier than a higher specced PC box right? So the OS has a natural advantage. But as I contended at the start of this post. The OS is not important. Its the platform and the name and if that is not the case with you, then go buy a peg. I'm not stopping you.
My vision for the Amiga is different. Sometimes I wonder if you're all too close to it to see it.
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@BigBenAussie
OK, I see your point now...and I do agree, image sells. I don't however
believe (at this stage) that one has any major advantage over the other
in this department, but whichever can market themselves as a "progressive"
alternative and offer a reasonable featureset could stand a decent chance.
Part of that image (since they've gone the effort aready) is going to
be for both to finish the job, and start selling complete, factory
branded systems at a realistic price. Boards are OK for the extreme
hobbyist, but the average "alternative" buyer probably is going to want to
feel as though they're buying into "something more".
Its the platform and the name and if that is not the case with you, then go buy a peg.
I'm not stopping you.
I did, and I don't regret it one bit. I put a lot of time and thought into
how I was going to piece it together...and it sort of allows you somewhat
the feeling of creating *your own* image, everything from the case configuration
and some components, to the extreme customization abilities of the interface thanks
to MUI. But for the mainstream, you're 100% correct. Most people want to purchase
into a type of ideal, while feeling as though they've excercised in the process
some virtue of "choice" or "freedom". Something a little more pre-packaged (and
polished) is probably necessary, and that's not at all a bad thing, it's likely
the only way (outside of landing major contracts as hardware providers) that
either can succeed, at least with the routes they've chosen.
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full backwards compatibility with 68k on x86 is impossible, as the AROS team will tell you.
PowerPC isn't binary compatible with 68K. I used some of the first PowerPC Macs in existence which used 68K emulation, and they were absolutely the slowest computers on the planet. If you have to emulate 68K code, what difference does the new CPU make? Besides, Amiga programmers were brutal to the hardware, so you kind of have to sandbox everything, anyway.
Don't tell me magical x86 chipsets doesn't suffer from bugs - even mass produced, widely used ones. For instance my PC *still* BSODs every six hours or so due to its buggy VIA VT chipset. And the better chipsets are jealously guarded and developer support is non-existent. Even on linux support is poor and patchy.
I thought all Linux systems were like that. Kinda makes you wonder how the other hundred-or-so embedded x86 OSes in the world stay in business. Besides, no serious engineer uses VIA -- except Eyetech and Genesi, of course.
The Amigalike OS's and AmigaOS itself are for Amiga lovers only. People may like their speed at first sight, but once they've been crashed and lost work a few times or been told that "there's no software to do that" a few times, suddenly they get a lot less keen.
Precisely my feelings on AROS.
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Wacoon wrote:
PowerPC isn't binary compatible with 68K. I used some of the first PowerPC Macs in existence which used 68K emulation, and they were absolutely the slowest computers on the planet. If you have to emulate 68K code, what difference does the new CPU make?
Endianness.
For instance, a PPC AmigaOS can use emulated libs in a native app and vice versa. A x86 one never can. That means you could run IBrowse on a UAE layer in AROS, but not with native x86 Zune - you'd have to use emulated old 68k MUI libs too. Ask the AROS team the difficulties.
...I thought all Linux systems were like that. Kinda makes you wonder how the other hundred-or-so embedded x86 OSes in the world stay in business.
They get driver binaries.
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KennyR wrote:
Endianness.
For instance, a PPC AmigaOS can use emulated libs in a native app and vice versa. A x86 one never can. That means you could run IBrowse on a UAE layer in AROS, but not with native x86 Zune - you'd have to use emulated old 68k MUI libs too. Ask the AROS team the difficulties.
It depends on the environment. Amithlon can use x86 native binaries that call emulated 68k libs, and it can expose native x86 drivers to 68k applications.
It's not an issue when at least one environment is designed to work in conjunction with the other. For AROS it is a problem, because it was never designed to be able to use emulated 68k libraries, nor was it designed to expose AROS native libraries to emulated apps.
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@bhoggett
Thats only partly true .....
With Amithlon you get 2 choices:
a) compile Linux-gcc, and to a partial link.
+ : maximum performance
- : different endians in 68k and x86-code, no way to call
AmigaOS-functions from the x86-side
Pretty much like coding for PuP.
b) Martin Bloom's gcc:
+ : it feels like and does what every other Amiga-compiler would feel like and do.
- : performance penalty. No C++-support (AFAIK).
So, no Amithlon is NO way to a fully native x86-AOS, it does
come close, but no cigar.
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@kennyR:
Have you ever met any ex-Amigans now using Windows or Linux? They can be the most anti-Amiga people on the planet. They look at AmigaOS with nothing but scorn.
As always your just blabbering about something you have no clue about, just because you have a high post count doesnt mean that everyone should take your statements and opinions seriously.
You know perfectly clear that there are great number of ex amigans sitting on the fence, using win xp or whatever, waiting for something to happen.
And just because you ran into a couple of angry and disgruntled ex amiga users who switch OS, they`re not the average Joe Q. Public ex amiga user, now using win xp.
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restore2003:
As always your just blabbering about something you have no clue about, just because you have a high post count doesnt mean that everyone should take your statements and opinions seriously.
You know perfectly clear that there are great number of ex amigans sitting on the fence, using win xp or whatever, waiting for something to happen.
And I know there is an even bigger number of them who scoff at the Amiga, and know all its weaknesses so are great at using them to criticise it. You'll have to trust me on this, I've spoken to *many* on IRC. OSNews and Slashdot are usually full of them too. The moment they leave their Amigas for a PC or Mac they seem to suddenly believe that the Amiga was the ultimate in crapness, because it can't do . There are lots too, like Bill and Waccoon here, who are simply not happy with PPC hardware and will never return unless Amiga's direction changes to x86. Other reasons for other people include lack of software, lack of memory protection, lack of games, lack of hardware...you get the picture.
There's no vast sea of undecideds out there. That's a myth, and if you believe it then it'll bite you in the bitter end.
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Oh...just stop generalising will you.
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We judge by our experiences.
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@kennyR
Sorry Kenny people like you are one of MorpOS's main stumbling blocks. Many people helped build this wall but you Kronos and a few others brought in the heavy equipment.
KennyR MorphOS NEEDS THE AMIGA NAME.
Almost every major Article about MorphOS includes the Amiga Name.
No KennyR what you and a few others never realized is that by dragging the Amiga name through the Mud you dumped manure on MorphOS. More Pegasos and Amiga Machines would have been sold if people like you didn't make such an huge effort to troll through the news groups spreading a great deal of miss information.
The reason I Mention you and Kronos is because you two are the main names people give me as the reason they left the community or outsiders who look at the Amiga AND MORPHOS with disdain...
A very few people get that kind of notoriety I hope you are proud of yourself because NOBODY else is.
I don't like to attack people personally but It reached boiling point this weekend when I received a few emails from Agencies who BTW I was trying to interest in Pegosos products. They checked the web and I guess stumbled across some of your prodigious postings. They suggested I come up with some other platform.
kgrach
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okay people, lets cool it right now, before things start getting out of hand.
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No, MorphOS doesn't need the Amiga name. It needs a big market, more users, more developers, modern hardware, advertising. With all of that, it could go far. With only an Amiga name, it would simply be a niche system with the Amiga name with no users. There are no inherent magical powers in this name. So far, the name hasn't really effected the people choosing to buy a cheaper Pegasos over an A1, has it? It hasn't got people who want x86 to buy one either, has it?
People buy the best deal they can get, period. Name is secondary, unless you're into high fashion.
I don't like to attack people personally but It reached boiling point this weekend when I received a few emails from Agencies who BTW I was trying to interest in Pegosos products. They checked the web and I guess stumbled across some of your prodigious postings. They suggested I come up with some other platform.
Yeah, right. :lol: Like all that anti-Windows and anti-Linux stuff on the web and all its much nastier fanatics have damaged support for either platform. I could even point you to AW for some much more hardline pro-OS4 material. I find your claim very unlikely. :D
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And I know there is an even bigger number of them who scoff at the Amiga, and know all its weaknesses so are great at using them to criticise it. You'll have to trust me on this, I've spoken to *many* on IRC. OSNews and Slashdot are usually full of them too. The moment they leave their Amigas for a PC or Mac they seem to suddenly believe that the Amiga was the ultimate in crapness, because it can't do . There are lots too, like Bill and Waccoon here, who are simply not happy with PPC hardware and will never return unless Amiga's direction changes to x86. Other reasons for other people include lack of software, lack of memory protection, lack of games, lack of hardware...you get the picture.
How many have you actually spoken to? Let me tell you something, 4 millions or more amigas were sold, some estimate that around 100000 are still interrested at some point, most check into amiga.com, just to see what direction the platform is heading, around 6% of those are you and me, posting at various forums and etc. and are involved at some point in the community.
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Those ex-Amigans are not coming back. There is no reason to do so. Even if Peg or A1 was sold @ 50 eur per unit they would not come back. It is not only money issue, it is also software issue and almost noone knows there is MOS/OS4.
Reality: MOS and OS4 communities are and stay small.
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No, MorphOS doesn't need the Amiga name. It needs a big market, more users, more developers, modern hardware, advertising. With all of that, it could go far.
Notice the recent "server watch" news still recognizes Amiga name as an example.
So far, the name hasn't really effected the people choosing to buy a cheaper Pegasos over an A1, has it??
IF that was the case, Pegasos HW should have romped home over Eyetech's relatively expensive A1-XE/A1-SE.
It hasn't got people who want x86 to buy one either, has it?
In terms of brand name; the Amiga brand name is simply been crashed by the titans of brand names e.g.
- Intel (Pentium, "Intel Inside"),
- AMD (Athlon, "64bit X86", "AMD Me, "Superior Windows engine"),
- Microsoft (Windows),
- Lindows,
- Dell, HP, VIA, SUN and ‘etc’ .
Support infrastructure is another issue e.g. ISV, education/training, channel support, tools chain, middleware, application/MIS solution providers and etc.
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Hammer wrote:
IF that was the case, Pegasos HW should have romped home over Eyetech's relatively expensive A1-XE/A1-SE.
It could never do that now. There has been too much bitterness, too much FUD and disinformation, and too many people digging their heels in and denouncing Pegasos as the Great Satan. Even if Pegasos got the Amiga name, these people would not buy it. There have been people making pretty sure MOS wouldn't get the clean break it deserved from the first day it was announced.
-
There has been too much bitterness,
It didn’t stop Microsoft and DEC from working together e.g. DEC sued MS for VMS copyright breaches in their Windows NT product. They both signed an agreement that benefits each other.
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Hammer wrote:
It didn't stop Microsoft and DEC from working together e.g. DEC sued MS for VMS copyright breaches in their Windows NT product. They both signed an agreement that benefits each other.
The very idea that the same thing could happen to the Amiga civil war is, at this time, fairly ludicrous. There is no big money incentive to force down the egos. Many of the decisions made since 1999 in the Amiga scene were made just to piss someone else off, that's how bad it is.
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I just wonder. When you look at this grabb of MorphOS. What do you really think?
----
www.enjoydiary.com/pictures/AmiDelf/morphosmini.jpg
----
Come on. MorphOS is the next generation AmigaOS as much as
AmigaOS4 is. But as said. MorphOS is out for the public. I am actually writing this on my registered and payed Ibrowse v2.3 on MorphOS v1.4
I love this OS and its replacing lots of my future thinking.
I just think. What would happened with the world wich we live in if Windows was that fast and good? I don't want to think that far. It scares me :)
Now go on and support Genesi. Theyre here and MorphOS is out for everyone!
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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No access
You don't have permission to view this page
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AmiDelf wrote:
What is the reason things is like they are? Amiga users deserves more than this?
Don't you agree with that?
Agreed
AmiDelf wrote:
Why can't all Amiga developers go tougether and create a webpage on-line wich contains Amiga-MOS developer stuff. Why? Because MorphOS is as much as a AmigaOS as AmigaOS4 is.
Ultimately it won't happen, it can't happen. No matter how similar they are now that similarity won't last. This is why I think this...
The present:
AmigaOS 4 is based on access to the genuine AmigaOS 3.x code. Even if non of that code has made it into AmigaOS 4 the resulting OS will be the result of developers who have been able to see the code of the original and therefore have seen stuff that those attempting to clone it won't have. Because of this, they are more likely to be able to ensure compatibility with earlier software - especially when it comes to quirky software that exploits little known quirks within the OS. Other teams have practically no chance of cloning this area of AmigaOS's behavior without knowing what those quirky applications are, and, even if they did, they would more than likely also need to have access to the quirky applications source code too in order to accurately mimic the behaviour required.
Now we have MorphOS. This is presently an Amiga compatible OS that implements a similar API to earlier versions of AmigaOS in the A-Box portion of the code based predominently on a combination of experience, experimentation, darn hard work and, ultimately, guesswork. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's admirable that they have managed to get as far as they have under the circumstances. However, they can never know absolutely everything about the OS they're cloning because they don't have access to that code, so they are very unlikely to ever be able to mimic it as accurately as a team who had direct access to the original source code.
But this is largely irrelevant. Once they are both on the market the initial resulting systems will be largely compatible with existing code. But something else awaits...
... The future:
Considering recent events AmigaOS's future is pretty much unknown at present. Assuming there is a future, best guesses would be they'll expand upon what they've already done with AmigaOS 4 so that the next versions API is as similar as it possibly can be. However, if they plan to address some of the fundamental problems, which I hope they will do, ultimately it will inevitably be sufficiently different.
As for MorphOS... the A-Box is not MorphOS's future. The Q-Box is MorphOS's future and this is the portion that the vast majority of users have absolutely no information about upon which to base any long-term decisions. Best guesses are it will take the best parts of what they have learnt from building the A-Box, mix this up with a lot of new ideas that will make their attempts to build an Amiga-like OS with all the things the team with access to the official AmigaOS code will have difficulty implementing without breaking large parts of it a lot easier and we'll have yet another sufficiently different API.
As time goes by the two teams offerings will inevitably separate still further based in part upon their own ideas for the future of their offerings, in part upon design decisions taken early on that will come back to haunt them and in part upon what they perceive their portion of the market wants.
As this continues eventually any attempt to create any kind of union between the two communities will become largely futile because there is so little in common between the two offerings.
The Fallout:
Faced with growing public confusion at this point the websites will innevitably find themselves faced with a difficult decision that will ultimately result in the survivors amongst them admitting there is a very big difference between them. Each website will then make a choice between the only options left: a) support AmigaOS, b) support MorphOS, c) support both but via separate web presences, or d) shrink into oblivion amid mass confusion.
My prediction is AmigaOS supporters will be left with sites containing the name Amiga while those sites supporting MorphOS, finally proud of MorphOS's achievements in it's own right, will choose to change their names amid confusion from new (rather than existing) MorphOS users who fail to see the connection.
And the split is complete.
May they both live long and prosper and may the current users learn to live with each other in respect.
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Now it should work ;p
I just wonder. When you look at this grabb of MorphOS. What do you really think?
(http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/Amitopia/MorphOSmini.jpg)
Come on. MorphOS is the next generation AmigaOS as much as
AmigaOS4 is. But as said. MorphOS is out for the public. I am actually writing this on my registered and payed Ibrowse v2.3 on MorphOS v1.4
I love this OS and its replacing lots of my future thinking.
I just think. What would happened with the world wich we live in if Windows was that fast and good? I don't want to think that far. It scares me :)
Now go on and support Genesi. Theyre here and MorphOS is out for everyone!
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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Its os4 with some extra glitter and candles? :-P
Take the name MorphOS, it should really change name, it`s not catchy at all, not a name the unfamiliars with the os would remember....
And besides, it is too similar to amigaOS to not be looked at as a clone...why not go in another direction with it?
Take its strong points and work further with that :-)
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@Amidelf,
Now go on and support Genesi. Theyre here and MorphOS is out for everyone
First, nice screenshot. You should ADD IT TO THE IMAGE GALLERY :)
Secondly, the quote above is the core reason that strife exists and people are at each others' throats in this community. You're very much in danger of earning a reputation as a "blue troll" with that one. (Whenever people mention trolls, I always want to check for a bellybutton jewel and count their toes. True trolls have four toes on each foot)
That being said, the correct philosophy is;
"MorphOS is here (and it IS good), but support whomever you want."
After all, even though AmigaOS 4 comes with a very, very basic looking install (reminiscent of AmigaOS 3.1), that doesn't mean it can't be changed to match the look and feel of the screenshot you sent within about 20 minutes.
Granted, I haven't actually SEEN AmigaOS4, I'm just guessing, but I think it's a bit silly to promote one OS over an identical one based on how pretty the user has gotten their desktop configured. In other words, let OS4 get here (someday PLEASE), then let people make rationalized decisions based on their use or views of the future of their chosen platform.
The AmigaOne/AmigaOS platform has a bunch of strikes against it, but so does the Pegasos/MorphOS combo at this point. It's too early to try steering people in either direction if they don't want to go. All I'm saying is.... Let's let AmigaOS come out and the playing field to get a bit more level before we start comparing apples and oranges.
Wayne
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AmiDelf wrote:
Now it should work ;p
I just wonder. When you look at this grabb of MorphOS. What do you really think?
Looks like an Linux/BSD trying to look like MacOSX. :-)
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@Kronos
I didn't say Amithlon was the way to a fully native x86-AOS, but it is an example of how x86 and 68k sides can mix, provided there is provision in the design to do so. AROS will have problem implementing this, because it has no provision for it, so while it will give pure native x86 performance, it may never integrate with the 68k side any more than running UAE does.
It's all irrelevant anyway, as I don't see any point in AmigaOS or Amiga-like operating systems any more. The reason? Too primitive and isolated. While something can be done about the primitive part, there is no chance of ever re-joining the mainstream markets.
This thread is another one of the examples of the self-destructive tendency within the community, which extends to the developers too. In a thread that should be about how to co-operate for everyone's benefit, what stands out is the stubborn "I'm right and you're wrong and you'll just have to live with being an outsider" attitude of most posters.
Delusional is the kindest reply I have to most comments here. Sad, but true.
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I just think. What would happened with the world wich we live in if Windows was that fast and good? I don't want to think that far. It scares me :)
Depends on the majority of MS beta program participant’s requests.
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restore2003 wrote:
Its os4 with some extra glitter and candles? :-P
Take the name MorphOS, it should really change name, it`s not catchy at all, not a name the unfamiliars with the os would remember....
The name MorphOS sounds and looks (from screen shot) like Morphix i.e. yet another Linux distro.
One could take some naming clues from X86 marketing machines e.g.
1. AMD’s Athlon; a combination Greek words (i.e. supreme challenger). An example of marketing made up word.
2. Intel’s Pentium; fifth generation with metallic “ium” (e.g. Uranium, Radium, Potassium, ‘etc’). Yet another marketing made up word.
3. Transmeta; Yet another marketing made up word.
4. ATI’s Radeon; beyond Rage (graphic chipset precursor to Radeon). Yet another marketing made up words.
5. NVIDIA/nForce; “n” stands for “nth”.
6. Lindows; Linux for Wintel desktop PC. A play on Windows and Linux words.
The name "MorphOS" doesn’t sound unique enough.
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Heh...
I actually like it's name. Its nice and blue butterfly.. Why not? Its much more spirit in that than the windows logo :)
There would be a nice logo if the blue butterfly could sit on the boingball someday :)
Let's go tougether back into how it all was before. I am as most of you are tired of all the slandring. Why can't we just go for what we have now. And now we have MorphOS.
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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@AmiDelf,
"Its nice and blue butterfly.. Why not? Its much more spirit in that than the windows logo :)"
It reminds me of an MSN commercial!
Chris
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Sometime though, OS4 will be available. Then, upon the next day, a yet to be determined user will say, "Hmmm..."
His eyes will light up, a grin shall form upon his lips, and he will make his way to the local computer store. Lovingly, he will go to someone's webshop, and make a purchase.
Upon the delivery truck's travelling away from the user's home... The user will know what must be done...
The user shall connect the Pegasos and A1 unto a router. Following this, he shall install Envoy. The glittering in his eyes creates the bast*rd troll... The PURPLE troll! All shall fear him! His evil gaze! His twisted reality! His proclamation that only true Amigans have both on a network! His evil laugh will fill the forums, when he realizes that his four port router will allow him to connect Amithlon and AROS to the network too...
We should all be trembling now, as this scenario may be coming close to reality! The wicked evil "All of the Above" troll will be coming to a forum near you! Eeeek!
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This thread is a joke, especially started by a person who for years have attacked Amiga emulation/MorphOS developers every step of the way and now flooding/spamming this site with MorphOS praise which is acceptable.
One word "hypocrite".
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@ AmiDelf
Dude, If the OS to choose were based on the skin it used I might as well be using XP.
I just skinned the hell out of it. Man, I didn't know I could even do that until 15 mins ago and once I started it blew me away. Changed the boot screen, all the window graphics and icons and mousepointer. Holy crap.
Check out
http://www.stardock.com
http://www.wincustomize.com
I know its Xp still, but its vastly improved in terms of looks at least. It looks soooo slick. This is what the Amiga should be about slickness. I have to admit Morphos looks slick right now too.
We've got a lot of catching up to do. I always figured that the Amiga OS ought to function more like those old Amiga demos with all the glitz and animation. That's what I remembered the most about the Amiga, those excellent demos. And anyway we should be past making the desktop look so serious. No one else is taking it seriously, why should we.
People want something different. As Alan said, the Amiga should go towards the leisure market. The kind that will be running Amiga's on TVs from their couch. They might not even want to see the OS unless it looks fun and slick.
I'm intending to write my app for TV resolution, and will slick it up graphically and with animation. I suggest we all do the same.
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@ AmiDelf
Some aspects of it are ok, even nice. I've had a chance to play with a Peg I a little, if there was no other alternative it might be acceptable (as long as BBRV were not associated with it). However I very much like the look and feel of Aos 3.x. Aos 4 will allways be closer to that than MORPHOS, besides I am an AmigaOne owner - and very pleased with it, even if it is presently runing Debian! I see absolutely no reason to switch....
BCP
Indpls, IN USA
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@Paul_Gadd
No, I wouldn't call AmiDelf a hypocrite at all. If a person is "vocal," they are vocal. If a person who is vocal changes their opinion on something, should their character also change?
While I can understand why you would think that of him, I just cannot see anyone becoming a different person based on a change in opinion. Actually, I have a bit of respect for him posting an editorial on his own site explaining his change of heart. Some people never do explain why they changed their mind on a given topic.
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You know,..
My words weren't against MorphOS at all. It was all against DCE. Thats two different things and I didn't actually believe in MorphOS and Pegasos before I got ennough evidence that even people wich have been waiting for over 2 years for getting their PPC boards repaired, got them repaired atleast because of Genesi.
As I explained to one another earlier today. AmigaWorld.org is a consumer website.
I am fair ennough to say that I am not so glad for what Genesi is doing with going public with everything,... but what I think Genesi thinks,..
is..
1. There is no movement
2. People have been abused to long
3. We have the right to know whats going on
All of this points is what Hyperion and Amiga INC have been holding back. It's just hearting me as it is you and others.
I allways wanted something like Genesi to break the silence wall. They've done that in a bit unprofessional way, but its getting ressults. It's infact building a community becayse of that.
If we had something just between Amiga INC and Genesi. That would be very, very nice. A company that cares about its users, tells them whats going on. If its needs to go public, they do so. But bringing a community tougether is a tough job and AmigaOS4 is loosing people day by day, as long as it is as quiet as it is now.
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org