Amiga.org

Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: adolescent on March 10, 2004, 07:35:47 AM

Title: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: adolescent on March 10, 2004, 07:35:47 AM
Today I noticed that several posts with messages relating negatively to the Prometheus PCI card have been removed.  For instance, the "PCI for Genuine 4000T" the original poster asked about opinions regarding the Mediator vs. Prometheus.  A reply that I added stating my personal reasons for choosing the Mediator over the Prometheus was deleted from the thread, amoung others.  I find it disturbing that an advertiser/moderator would stoop to these tactics benefit their personal business.  
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: MaDDuck on March 10, 2004, 07:45:03 AM
dude!
first, RELAX!
second, BREATH!


NOW- send a message to one of the moderators and ask why!

I'm sure there's a good reason why ANYTHING here gets deleted!
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: adolescent on March 10, 2004, 07:58:04 AM
Dude? :-?

Don't worry, I'm breathing.  And, I think I know the reason.  I just don't like it.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: T_Bone on March 10, 2004, 08:09:00 AM
Let me guess, did Tjaoz post in the thread?  :roll:
I bet I can guess.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: Damion on March 10, 2004, 08:34:26 AM
Check Wayne's response in that thread, sounds absolutely fair
enough to me.

And hey, it could be worse...at least the moderators are 100%
up front about what they're moderating, it's not like magically
"vanishing" posts are being attributed to "site bugs" or anything.

Although I'm NOT a fan of moderation, it is a necessary evil...
and as long as a reasonable explanation is given...well, you can
always debate THAT. ;-)

Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: DaveP on March 10, 2004, 08:48:57 AM
@-D-

Oh they have been.

Plus, it does seem that you haven't been stopped from debating
that.

I mean, its not like vanishing posts are attributed to malevolent
actions by people who just like to see things in a distorted negative
fashion - oh hang on - they are.

As per usual.

If you have a criticism about the way a site is run, you can:

1. Take it up in PM with the moderation staff
2. Post about it on the site in question
3. Make sarcastic remarks on other sites about it.

These days I have respect for those that do (1),
some respect for those that do (2) and no respect for those that do (3).

Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: Damion on March 10, 2004, 09:48:15 AM
Hi DaveP,

Sorry, I draw my own personal conclusions about events,
overall in life and also in this community. Unfortunately,
sir, I'm not obligated to clear them by you first.

Quote

Plus, it does seem that you haven't been stopped from debating
that.


Pardon? It's also difficult to debate something, the presence
and proof of which "disappears" into the magic hat.

Quote

If you have a criticism about the way a site is run, you can:


Hmmm....don't need to be told what I can and can't do, sorry.

Quote

These days I have respect for those that do (1),
some respect for those that do (2) and no respect for those that
do (3).


Sir, I neither expect nor require your respect. My decision has
been made, I no longer visit sites which I believe
practice underhanded moderation policies.
 
No loss to either of us, I imagine.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: DaveP on March 10, 2004, 10:36:33 AM
Quote

Sorry, I draw my own personal conclusions about events,
overall in life and also in this community. Unfortunately,
sir, I'm not obligated to clear them by you first.


As do I, fortunately sir I never asked you to.

Quote

Pardon? It's also difficult to debate something, the presence
and proof of which "disappears" into the magic hat.

If you care to hand over that "magic hat" then it can be restored. It
also does not stop the discussion, as you saw.

Quote

Hmm....don't need to be told what I can and can't do, sorry.

Well heres a pretty thing, I never told you you could NOT do anything. Just
got to love these word twisters.

Quote

Sir, I neither expect nor require your respect.

Thats your choice. I am telling you how it is.

Quote

 My decision has
been made, I no longer visit sites which I believe
practice underhanded moderation policies.

No loss to either of us, I imagine.

Your decision is irrelevant. However your melodrama is quite
entertaining and not entirely unpredictable.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: Damion on March 10, 2004, 11:00:41 AM
Quote

As do I, fortunately sir I never asked you to.


And...I said you did, where again? ;)

Quote

If you care to hand over that "magic hat" then it can be restored.


I don't have a habit of backing up pages, sadly.

Quote

It also does not stop the discussion, as you saw.


And...I said it did, where? ;)

Quote

Well heres a pretty thing, I never told you you could NOT do anything. Just
got to love these word twisters.


Indeed..

Quote

Your decision is irrelevant. However your melodrama is quite
entertaining and not entirely unpredictable.


Ohhhh, I've seen this one before somewhere, I think. Anyhoo,
glad to hear your crystal ball is up to snuff.


Cheers,

-d
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: redrumloa on March 10, 2004, 11:22:59 AM
@adolescent

Quote
I find it disturbing that an advertiser/moderator would stoop to these tactics benefit their personal business.


Amiga.org Site Announcements : redumloa resigns as Amiga.org moderator (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44860)

I have not been a moderator of this site for half a year. You know why? Because I knew absurd accusations like this would come flying.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: mikeymike on March 10, 2004, 11:27:24 AM
ladies, calm down :-)

Ok, here's the thread I think is in question, but I can't find any comments from Wayne on it:

 PCI for genuine 4000T (http://www.amiga.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15584&forum=13)

Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: redrumloa on March 10, 2004, 11:32:36 AM
Quote
Wayne           Posted 2004/3/9 15:33 Updated 2004/3/9 16:22
Webmaster
Joined: 2002/2/13
From: A little to the right of Hell proper.
Posts: 142
Re: Anachronism Industries buys Prometheus from Matay.

This thread has been cleaned due to several complaints about personal agendas and attacks. Some of the statements expressed in this thread contained legally libellous content for which Amiga.org could be held accountable.

If you don't personally like Matay or the boards or whatever, that's fine, feel free to make your point in a way that you can back up by fact. Personal smear campaigns from competing companies or products are unacceptable here.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: Damion on March 10, 2004, 11:53:24 AM
@mikeymike

Quote

ladies, calm down :-)


LOL, my apologies. (honest) :-)


I beats myself profusely...:whack:
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: mikeymike on March 10, 2004, 01:09:53 PM
Quote
Re: Anachronism Industries buys Prometheus from Matay.


Ah!  A completely different thread.

A URL would have been nice ( @ original poster as well as red :-))
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: on March 10, 2004, 01:11:43 PM
This is yet another example where I have to -- yet again -- sit and explain how Xoops works because someone is either too new to the site, or naive enough to confuse the standard moderation of a Website with "censorship".

In the thread in question, user tjoaz made several statements which were not substantial by facts.  This left Amiga.org in the position of being legally accountable.  I received almost a dozen complaints by various site members over his statement.

The particular comment had been physically quoted about a dozen times in responses to it.  That leaves us with two options;

1) Manually moderate and edit about 13 posts or so, which is a pain in the ass as well as pissing everyone off.

2) Remove the original statement in question, which -- without giving us the option -- removes any replies along with the original post.

Normally we choose step 1.  In this case, I took step 2 because I didn't have the time it would take to take step #1.  In no way does this denote "censorship", and I take very great offense to the accusation of "selling out".

Like I said in the other thread, if you don't like Matay or their cards that's one thing but Amiga.org is not the place to come spreading libelous comments because of the fact that you work for the other company (or the guy is your friend, or whatever).

There is a thing called professional ethics.  This is why I stepped down and refrained from posting on the Amiga situation during the time period while I worked for Genesi.  

User tjaoz obviously has an agenda against Matay (the reason is actually irrelevant to us), but he cannot use Amiga.org as the means to launch personal attacks against people or even companies which are not based on fact.

There are few enough companies left in the Amiga community and there was no need for him to try and turn Anacronism's announcement into yet another bad thread which makes the company question why they bother.  I'm looking through all the Web archives right now at old news clips and newsgroup postings from 1997 on.  It's actually very sad to see that almost every week since 1997, some company has left the Amiga community behind or closed it's doors.  The fact that ANY company does ANYTHING in the Amiga community in 2004 is a GOOD thing (whether or not you believe there are negative connotations to their actions).

It's even more depressing to read the historically accurate thread and realize that Amiga Inc really imploded in mid 2001 (14 months into existence) and absolutely zero progress -- with the exception of the release of the Eyetech/MAI board -- has been made in the official "Amiga" arena since about 1997/98.  

I am of course leaving the Pegasos and MorphOS out of this statement because it's not "official" (at least yet -- though it may become so if Bill Buck gets his way).  I'm going to shut up now, because I really feel a Soapbox article coming on.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: bbrv on March 10, 2004, 02:12:56 PM
Hi Wayne, it is "official" now.  The question remains how far the application of the ruling will extend.  In any case, Genesi will NOT do it themselves and it will have nothing to do with MorphOS.  We would like to sub-license AROS in a scheme that would provide a portion of the royalties to them (majority) and to this site (and perhaps Amiga-News too and others, etc.?) as we discussed what seems now to be years ago.  We would still like to do that.  If we did that this site would become a promotional/community arm of the effort and there would not be trademark challenge to this site ever again.  :-)  Plus, the AROS people would then undeniably have "official" recognition too.  $4.50/unit would still need to go to a escrow account for Amiga Inc. so that employees and creditors with legal judgments against Amiga Inc. could be paid.

It should be a Community project and the royalty benefit should go to the people that deserve it, while at the same time maintaining this site and others (if everything works).  We are not looking for anything for Genesi in this arrangement just the ability to empower the license agreement and gain the greatest benefit possible for what is truly "Amiga."  We can sub-license and will look forward to establishing such an arrangement with all interested parties that want to work collaboratively and constructively.

R&B
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: NightShade737 on March 10, 2004, 02:40:20 PM
What happened to the whole general forum disclaimer of "These are the feelings and oppinions of our members, and do not represent our feelings or oppinions on the matters. i.e. Shout at them not us".
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: falemagn on March 10, 2004, 02:46:00 PM
> We would like to sub-license AROS [...]

Ehum, sorry? Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: Argo on March 10, 2004, 02:50:51 PM
If you wish to discuss BBRV reply to Wayne, please start another topic. Make sure to Quote of link for reference.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: on March 10, 2004, 02:54:39 PM
Bill,

Thank you for your input. I openly admit that I went off on a bit of a tangent with my last response, but I would like to kind of keep this thread on topic and out of the tiresome war zone that it will degenerate into if left unchecked.  

My only intent in my original reply -- and I would welcome discussion in any of the coffee house forums -- was to point out that from the "Amiga" side of the fence, there has been no "official" (as in generated by the company that owns, licenses, or otherwise holds the Amiga trademarks) progress in at least six years and only the appearance of progress before that.

Speaking personally, I think the Pegasos is a fine machine and I think you have the potential to reach all the markets that you're aiming for, but as of yet, the Pegasos and MorphOS has been on the periphery of what I would consider the official "Amiga" solution (legal procedures results notwithstanding).

Don't get me wrong.  While I don't personally feel that the Pegasos "needs" such petty things as a badge, if the Pegasos and/or MorphOS become (or already are) an official "Amiga" solution, then GREAT!  I've said all along the more the merrier.  

Remember Bill McEwen's speech in January 2000 folks, the original stated intent of Amiga Inc was to license many companies to make Amiga-branded items, and I've always thought that to be a good thing.

Speaking officially for Amiga.org, it is reassuring to know that -- in the event of the now obvious legal actions against Amiga Inc -- Amiga.org will be allowed to continue it's independence and not face the same threats that it always has from the various quarters.  For that reassurance, I thank you.

Back to reality and this thread now.  Let's please return to the topic at hand -- which was originally yet another scream of "censorship" -- and leave this conversation to the Coffee House.

Wayne
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: TheMagicM on March 10, 2004, 03:08:24 PM
What I'm wondering is what does a credit rating of Matay have to do with anything?   The boards are overpriced is what you're saying? What isnt in the Amiga world?  I think Wayne answered your reply... Read his reply above, and then re-read it.
Title: Re: Amiga.org censorship? Or just selling out?
Post by: on March 10, 2004, 03:10:23 PM
This topic is locked because it's going hopelessly off topic.